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So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:08 am

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PrymeStriker wrote:For the love of Primus, man. If I just wanted a good story, I'd go read a book. :BOOM: :BANG_HEAD: :HEADHURTS:
Books? Pfft. I'll take motion pictures any day. :P
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Dead Metal » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:45 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:Keep watching. Season one hasn't aged well in terms of animation. I re-watched episode one and couldn't make it through the first 12 minutes. :SICK:
Who watches Beast Wars for the animation?


Hard for me to enjoy a cartoon if it's not animated decently. :roll:
No offense, but that's pretty shallow. >:oP

No it's not, it's a cartoon and the main thing of a cartoon is its animation, that's the whole point behind it.
It's like calling someone shallow for not liking a chocolate cake that's salty and doesn't really taste of chocolate.

Beast Wars season 1's animation just hasn't aged well, which has to do with the fact that it's CGI.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Rodimus Prime » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:46 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:Hard for me to enjoy a cartoon if it's not animated decently. :roll:
No offense, but that's pretty shallow. >:oP


That's a little much, don't you think? I mean, I agree that Beast Wars has a superb story, whether it's the episodic or the overall arc, and it's the better reason to watch the show as opposed to the animation, which isn't horrible, but I get what PrymeStriker is saying. I'm the same way with the G1 comics. I never ever read the UK Marvel stuff, because I really don't like Geoff Senior's style. Guidi's is much more appealing to me, so even though I've wanted to read stuff like Target: 2006 and others, I never did because that art is just so off-putting.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Noideaforaname » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:27 am

At least Beast Wars never gave Megatron a lazy eye. Frequently. During serious moments, too.
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I get why it could be distracting, but if you're letting age (something the animators could not possibly work against) get in the way of watching a decent show, it seems like you wouldn't be able to watch a whole lot.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:32 am

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People have to remember that it's a product of its time. The animation couldn't get any better back then because it was the most advanced television CGI tech that they had back then, without getting into theatrical movie technology levels, which just wasn't gonna happen.

In perhaps another 20 years, new fans from then might look back on TF: Prime and call its animation primitive.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby njb902 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:53 am

Noideaforaname wrote:At least Beast Wars never gave Megatron a lazy eye. Frequently. During serious moments, too.
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I get why it could be distracting, but if you're letting age (something the animators could not possibly work against) get in the way of watching a decent show, it seems like you wouldn't be able to watch a whole lot.


I always thought of that as his "I'm imagining ripping you to pieces" face.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Noideaforaname » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:09 pm

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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby PrymeStriker » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:52 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:In perhaps another 20 years, new fans from then might look back on TF: Prime and call its animation primitive.


And that's fine, if the animation is miles better than what we have now. What's your point?

Noideaforaname wrote:I get why it could be distracting, but if you're letting age (something the animators could not possibly work against) get in the way of watching a decent show, it seems like you wouldn't be able to watch a whole lot.


Sabrblade wrote:The animation couldn't get any better back then because it was the most advanced television CGI tech that they had back then,


Honestly, guys. I don't give a crap whether Beast Wars was animated in the 1990s or the 1920s. The point is that the animation from season one did not age well. I can watch old Disney shorts, and even Fantasmagorie, without cringing as much as I did with the first handful of episodes of Beast Wars. The animation for those can present itself as timeless when watched now; the same cannot be said for the first season of this show. There's a lot of things you could say are cutting edge when you're first exposed to it, come back to it in a decade or two, and begin to convulse wondering why you ever loved it so much. People do this every five years with music and technology.

Also, yes, the animation could get better. See seasons two and three for reference.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby njb902 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:00 pm

PrymeStriker wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:In perhaps another 20 years, new fans from then might look back on TF: Prime and call its animation primitive.


And that's fine, if the animation is miles better than what we have now. What's your point?

Noideaforaname wrote:I get why it could be distracting, but if you're letting age (something the animators could not possibly work against) get in the way of watching a decent show, it seems like you wouldn't be able to watch a whole lot.


Sabrblade wrote:The animation couldn't get any better back then because it was the most advanced television CGI tech that they had back then,


Honestly, guys. I don't give a crap whether Beast Wars was animated in the 1990s or the 1920s. The point is that the animation from season one did not age well. I can watch old Disney shorts, and even Fantasmagorie, without cringing as much as I did with the first handful of episodes of Beast Wars. The animation for those can present itself as timeless when watched now; the same cannot be said for the first season of this show. There's a lot of things you could say are cutting edge when you're first exposed to it, come back to it in a decade or two, and begin to convulse wondering why you ever loved it so much. People do this every five years with music and technology.

Also, yes, the animation could get better. See seasons two and three for reference.


Could it have been better at the time it was made though? It is entirely possible that there was a leap to the next generation of software and/or hardware. I'll admit I don't actually know though, it's just conjecture on my part.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:07 pm

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I NEVER liked Beast Wars primarily because of its animation. Honestly, unless it's pants-pooping outstanding, disgustingly grotesque, or obviously incompetent (meaning that you can tell that they were capable of better but chose to not try for better), animation was, is, and likely always will be second-tier importance to me beneath the quality of story, characters, acting, scripting, continuity, and other things that matter beyond physical appearance.

You know, the old "book cover judging" thing.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby PrymeStriker » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:45 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:I NEVER liked Beast Wars primarily because of its animation.


I've never liked Beast Wars primarily for its animation either. >:oP

animation was, is, and likely always will be second-tier importance to me beneath the quality of story, characters, acting, scripting, continuity, and other things that matter beyond physical appearance.


Maybe that's how you critique shows, but that's not how cartoons work. Visuals are just as important as story with cartoons; they go hand-in-hand with one another.

Sabrblade wrote:You know, the old "book cover judging" thing.


That only applies to cartoons if you've never seen the show before and opt out after the first 5 minutes because of the visuals. That's not applicable in my case, since I've watched all 52 episodes of Beast Wars before and thoroughly enjoyed it, so this argument is invalid.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:06 pm

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Complaining today about the highest quality of television CGI from almost 20 years ago seems pretty meaningless since there was nothing to be done about it back then. It's not like there was anything better to compare it to back then, aside from maybe ReBoot and War Planets, which were both pretty much on par with Beast Wars (Toy Story was a movie, putting it in a whole other league from television CGI).

It's like complaining nowadays that Super Mario 64 looks old. It's beating a dead horse.

Whereas a show like Energon had awful CGI in an age where television CGI had evolved so much since the 90's, warranting plenty of ridicule.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby PrymeStriker » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:22 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:Complaining today about the highest quality of television CGI from almost 20 years ago seems pretty meaningless since there was nothing to be done about it back then.


I'm not complaining about it with the reason that there's something that could have been done about it. I just think the animation of season one looks like crap compared to the rest of the series and hasn't age well *, and that season two and three should be praised for pulling the show out of its visual rut. These seasons did not air 20 years after season one. :roll:

* I feel the need to constantly bold, underline, and italicize this because you constantly ignore it. Therefore, I must write a paragraph regarding it. Something that hasn't aged well is something that was "fantastic" or "cutting edge" during its time, but can be viewed of unsatisfactory in retrospect. Period. You can't objectively argue against it.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Blast Cannon » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:23 am

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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby tek1979 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:59 am

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Blast Cannon wrote:I love these message boards and their pedantic arguments. :D

Oh yeah, and thought people might of started with me because I of my original post, didn't think it would turn become a completely different argument :)
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Blast Cannon » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:13 am

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tek1979 wrote:
Blast Cannon wrote:I love these message boards and their pedantic arguments. :D

Oh yeah, and thought people might of started with me because I of my original post, didn't think it would turn become a completely different argument :)


The best part is people get genuinely irate and frustrated about other people's opinions on a cartoon. It really puts the suffering happening in the world into some perspective.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:06 am

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Blast Cannon wrote:I love these message boards and their pedantic arguments. :D


Damn you and your 136 singing testes, I had to look up what "pedantic" means. I wasn't planning on any intellectual growth today, so thanks for that.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Blast Cannon » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:10 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:
Blast Cannon wrote:I love these message boards and their pedantic arguments. :D


Damn you and your 136 singing testes, I had to look up what "pedantic" means. I wasn't planning on any intellectual growth today, so thanks for that.


One part of you usually grows whenever you gain access to the internet!
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby craggy » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:14 pm

Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:Hard for me to enjoy a cartoon if it's not animated decently. :roll:
No offense, but that's pretty shallow. >:oP


That's a little much, don't you think? I mean, I agree that Beast Wars has a superb story, whether it's the episodic or the overall arc, and it's the better reason to watch the show as opposed to the animation, which isn't horrible, but I get what PrymeStriker is saying. I'm the same way with the G1 comics. I never ever read the UK Marvel stuff, because I really don't like Geoff Senior's style. Guidi's is much more appealing to me, so even though I've wanted to read stuff like Target: 2006 and others, I never did because that art is just so off-putting.

say whaaaaaa? :???:

wow. Senior's stuff probably my favourite TF related art until the last decade. We've had some great guys on IDW and some of the guys Pat Lee didn't pay at Dreamwave were pretty good, but Roche and Milne are the only ones I see coming close to giving me the thrills I got from Senior. There were a few other good artists on the Marvel UK stuff, and a bit of a mix of styles. I re-read the old Marvel UK run a few years back and it was torture having a US-originated story, both for the writing and the art. UK forever! ;)
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Seibertron » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:05 pm

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PrymeStriker wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:Keep watching. Season one hasn't aged well in terms of animation. I re-watched episode one and couldn't make it through the first 12 minutes. :SICK:
Who watches Beast Wars for the animation?


Hard for me to enjoy a cartoon if it's not animated decently. :roll:

Season two and three had better animation, so I can watch it without cringing.


Beast Wars animation isn't aging very well. It's looking more dated than G1 cartoons to me. Lack of shadows initially. Polygons. Basic shapes. Rough movements. It's still good and as far as TV computer animation goes, it was state-of-the-art for 1996. Just isn't holding up for me.

The acting, however, is top of the line alongside the voice acting in Animated and Prime. The character development in that series is the top of the line. Everyone got a shot at being developed which I think is why those characters have continued to be such huge fan-favorites despite very little fiction in the 15 years since Beast Wars ended.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:20 pm

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Seibertron wrote:Everyone got a shot at being developed which I think is why those characters have continued to be such huge fan-favorites despite very little fiction in the 15 years since Beast Wars ended.


Despite of it, or because of it? What I mean by that is we haven't really had any more serious attempts at continuing their story or introducing other BW stories, besides the Japanese stuff, so there's no subpar stories or characters out there that would dilute the high quality of the Beast Wars story line.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:24 pm

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craggy wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:Hard for me to enjoy a cartoon if it's not animated decently. :roll:
No offense, but that's pretty shallow. >:oP


That's a little much, don't you think? I mean, I agree that Beast Wars has a superb story, whether it's the episodic or the overall arc, and it's the better reason to watch the show as opposed to the animation, which isn't horrible, but I get what PrymeStriker is saying. I'm the same way with the G1 comics. I never ever read the UK Marvel stuff, because I really don't like Geoff Senior's style. Guidi's is much more appealing to me, so even though I've wanted to read stuff like Target: 2006 and others, I never did because that art is just so off-putting.

say whaaaaaa? :???:

wow. Senior's stuff probably my favourite TF related art until the last decade. We've had some great guys on IDW and some of the guys Pat Lee didn't pay at Dreamwave were pretty good, but Roche and Milne are the only ones I see coming close to giving me the thrills I got from Senior. There were a few other good artists on the Marvel UK stuff, and a bit of a mix of styles. I re-read the old Marvel UK run a few years back and it was torture having a US-originated story, both for the writing and the art. UK forever! ;)


It's a matter of personal preference, really. I feel like Senior's stuff is too simple, compared to what's in the US comics. To me the art just looks better, with the facial expression, battle damage, etc. I know Senior did some of the US comics, especially when Furman was writing, and those are my least favorite issues to look at. Too bad, as #66, "All Fall Down" and #75, "On the Edge of Extinction" are 2 of my favorite issues, despite the subpar art.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby craggy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:09 pm

Rodimus Prime wrote:stuff that I quoted from the wrong post. oh well, it's just up there a wee bit ^^^^

you are a strange one, Rod. ;)

To the topic at hand: I don't think we'll have to wait 15years to look back at Prime as being...less than perfectly animated. Maybe about 15minutes? Hell, I'll do it now.

It's not bad animation. It is very clearly designed to fit within a relatively small budget. It's a lot more polished than BW, but so it should be. Advances in technology give creators more time to add things, but in general, compared to the rest of the visual effects world, it's in about the same place, if not lower down the food chain than Beast Wars was when it was released. (BW was made by Mainframe just after Reboot, which blew people away...for a while)

It's good, but you can see the budget.


edit:gotta say though, whoever choreographed that Magnus, Jacky, Shockers fight did a great job!
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby PrymeStriker » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:34 pm

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craggy wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:stuff that I quoted from the wrong post. oh well, it's just up there a wee bit ^^^^

you are a strange one, Rod. ;)

To the topic at hand: I don't think we'll have to wait 15years to look back at Prime as being...less than perfectly animated. Maybe about 15minutes? Hell, I'll do it now.

It's not bad animation. It is very clearly designed to fit within a relatively small budget. It's a lot more polished than BW, but so it should be. Advances in technology give creators more time to add things, but in general, compared to the rest of the visual effects world, it's in about the same place, if not lower down the food chain than Beast Wars was when it was released. (BW was made by Mainframe just after Reboot, which blew people away...for a while)

It's good, but you can see the budget.


edit:gotta say though, whoever choreographed that Magnus, Jacky, Shockers fight did a great job!


I haven't seen one cartoon halfway near the level of Prime's animation in my life. If you have, please show me where I may find it.
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Re: So I'm watching Beast Wars for the first time and ...

Postby craggy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:46 pm

PrymeStriker wrote:
craggy wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:stuff that I quoted from the wrong post. oh well, it's just up there a wee bit ^^^^

you are a strange one, Rod. ;)

To the topic at hand: I don't think we'll have to wait 15years to look back at Prime as being...less than perfectly animated. Maybe about 15minutes? Hell, I'll do it now.

It's not bad animation. It is very clearly designed to fit within a relatively small budget. It's a lot more polished than BW, but so it should be. Advances in technology give creators more time to add things, but in general, compared to the rest of the visual effects world, it's in about the same place, if not lower down the food chain than Beast Wars was when it was released. (BW was made by Mainframe just after Reboot, which blew people away...for a while)

It's good, but you can see the budget.


edit:gotta say though, whoever choreographed that Magnus, Jacky, Shockers fight did a great job!


I haven't seen one cartoon halfway near the level of Prime's animation in my life. If you have, please show me where I may find it.

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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #98 - Combiner Wars
Twincast / Podcast #98:
"Combiner Wars"
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Posted: Thursday, August 14th, 2014