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What bugs me is that it is blind luck that the Harvester, the Allspark, and Sentinels ship is found on the same planet

As shadowman said, the Allspark went to the harvester since that's it's default location. The Primes used the star harvester to recharge the Allspark. The Fallen explains it wasn't chance that this happened...it was design.

Shadowman wrote:

shamone wrote:no im talking about fallen in movie verse

So am I. Unicron, Primus, and the Original 13 (Including the Fallen) are multiversal singularities; it's the same character across multiple universes. So the Fallen from War Within and the Fallen RotF are both the same character.

shamone wrote:i cant place him in the timelne of the movies is what i saying until he shows up in rotf

How can't you place him in the timelines? They talk about it at great length in the movies.

What im saying is that this is what i knwo about the fallen from the movies

-He went to earth with the primes around the birth of man (or thereabouts)

-he tried to destroy earth

- the primes entombed themselves and the matrix

- The fallen is on saturn (its never stated) and megatron is resurrected


Everything between primes sacrificing themselves and ROTF is not mentioned in the movie so I dont know here to put him into my time line above.


Im assuming the fallen ordered the cons to earth, as i can see no other reason for them being there since the sixties

Lastjustice wrote:As shadowman said, the Allspark went to the harvester since that's it's default location. The Primes used the star harvester to recharge the Allspark. The Fallen explains it wasn't chance that this happened...it was design.

When does he ever say this in the movies? I know that the comics state that the Allspark was drawn to the Matrix and harvester on Earth, but there's nothing from the films that states this. If one simply watches the movies, the general impression is that the Allspark somehow winds up in space, coincidentally crashes on the same planet the Fallen tried to destroy, and later Sentinel Prime coincidentally crashes on the moon.

Everything between primes sacrificing themselves and ROTF is not mentioned in the movie so I dont know here to put him into my time line above.

This is one of my biggest issues with the movie storyline. The Fallen is on Earth, the Primes steal the Matrix and then blow themselves up to entomb it underground a few miles from the Harvester, and then thousands of years later, the Fallen is crash landed on Saturn's moon, directing the Decepticon invasion.

There's absolutely nothing that tells us what happened between these two points in time. I mean...based only on the information presented in the movie, the Fallen was on Earth along with a number of other Decepticons (including Jetfire) after the Primes committed mass suicide. Since the only beings capable of killing him were gone, there was absolutely nothing to stop him from tearing the planet apart to find the Matrix and then activate the Harvester. I realize he didn't know the Matrix was buried just a few miles away, but you'd think in 17,000 years he would have been able to find it.

The comics state that the Fallen killed all the Primes but one, and the last survivor trapped the Fallen in another dimension. Even if we are to accept this as part of the movie canon, I don't see the point in entombing the Matrix on Earth. If one Prime survived he could have just taken the Matrix back to Cybertron and guarded it there.

And this isn't even getting into the question of how the Fallen (or any Decepticon for that matter) could steal the Matrix if it has to be earned.

Cthulhunicron wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:As shadowman said, the Allspark went to the harvester since that's it's default location. The Primes used the star harvester to recharge the Allspark. The Fallen explains it wasn't chance that this happened...it was design.

When does he ever say this in the movies? I know that the comics state that the Allspark was drawn to the Matrix and harvester on Earth, but there's nothing from the films that states this. If one simply watches the movies, the general impression is that the Allspark somehow winds up in space, coincidentally crashes on the same planet the Fallen tried to destroy, and later Sentinel Prime coincidentally crashes on the moon.

Everything between primes sacrificing themselves and ROTF is not mentioned in the movie so I dont know here to put him into my time line above.

This is one of my biggest issues with the movie storyline. The Fallen is on Earth, the Primes steal the Matrix and then blow themselves up to entomb it underground a few miles from the Harvester, and then thousands of years later, the Fallen is crash landed on Saturn's moon, directing the Decepticon invasion.

There's absolutely nothing that tells us what happened between these two points in time. I mean...based only on the information presented in the movie, the Fallen was on Earth along with a number of other Decepticons (including Jetfire) after the Primes committed mass suicide. Since the only beings capable of killing him were gone, there was absolutely nothing to stop him from tearing the planet apart to find the Matrix and then activate the Harvester. I realize he didn't know the Matrix was buried just a few miles away, but you'd think in 17,000 years he would have been able to find it.

The comics state that the Fallen killed all the Primes but one, and the last survivor trapped the Fallen in another dimension. Even if we are to accept this as part of the movie canon, I don't see the point in entombing the Matrix on Earth. If one Prime survived he could have just taken the Matrix back to Cybertron and guarded it there.

And this isn't even getting into the question of how the Fallen (or any Decepticon for that matter) could steal the Matrix if it has to be earned.

the comics cant be canon, because the primes decided to suicide themselves to hide the matrix. On the planet they fought the fallen ???????!!!!!

smart move there.


and the earning it bit, that was jsut nonsense, the fallen can use it and doesnt have to earn it, whats up with that

Cthulhunicron wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:As shadowman said, the Allspark went to the harvester since that's it's default location. The Primes used the star harvester to recharge the Allspark. The Fallen explains it wasn't chance that this happened...it was design.

When does he ever say this in the movies? I know that the comics state that the Allspark was drawn to the Matrix and harvester on Earth, but there's nothing from the films that states this. If one simply watches the movies, the general impression is that the Allspark somehow winds up in space, coincidentally crashes on the same planet the Fallen tried to destroy, and later Sentinel Prime coincidentally crashes on the moon.

They don't, which is the entire point of this thread. to fill in the gaps with sensible conjecture.

shamone wrote:the comics cant be canon, because the primes decided to suicide themselves to hide the matrix. On the planet they fought the fallen ???????!!!!!

smart move there.

Considering he never actually found it until someone else had uncovered it, yeah, actually a pretty good move there.

shamone wrote:and the earning it bit, that was jsut nonsense, the fallen can use it and doesnt have to earn it, whats up with that

He can use the Matrix...but he couldn't activate it. Remember how it crumbled to dust when Sam touched it, and it rebuilt itself when he "died" trying to save Prime? If the Fallen had just blasted his way into the tomb, it likely would have just stayed dust.

Nice discussion going on here. I'm loving it. Anyway, a few folks have touched something I've been wondering about - if we did take the comics as canon with the films (tried to make them fit together), when will have Megatron freed the fallen from the rock? At one point he says not until after the matrix is found, and later states not until the harvester is found. Once the allspark goes for the harvester, The fallen rock sends Megatron after it (so, unless he doubles back, skip ahead to being frozen). The last panel is the fallen rock, with the narration, "freedom...is only a matter of time." So...the fallen doesn't need megatron to set him free anyhow? Or does he seduce the next cybertronian to come across him, and then makes them set him free? Questions, questions...maybe Soundwave plays a part, and coordinates the fallen's awakening, once he reaches earth?

Shadowman wrote:

Cthulhunicron wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:As shadowman said, the Allspark went to the harvester since that's it's default location. The Primes used the star harvester to recharge the Allspark. The Fallen explains it wasn't chance that this happened...it was design.

When does he ever say this in the movies? I know that the comics state that the Allspark was drawn to the Matrix and harvester on Earth, but there's nothing from the films that states this. If one simply watches the movies, the general impression is that the Allspark somehow winds up in space, coincidentally crashes on the same planet the Fallen tried to destroy, and later Sentinel Prime coincidentally crashes on the moon.

They don't, which is the entire point of this thread. to fill in the gaps with sensible conjecture.

shamone wrote:the comics cant be canon, because the primes decided to suicide themselves to hide the matrix. On the planet they fought the fallen ???????!!!!!

smart move there.

Considering he never actually found it until someone else had uncovered it, yeah, actually a pretty good move there.

shamone wrote:and the earning it bit, that was jsut nonsense, the fallen can use it and doesnt have to earn it, whats up with that

He can use the Matrix...but he couldn't activate it. Remember how it crumbled to dust when Sam touched it, and it rebuilt itself when he "died" trying to save Prime? If the Fallen had just blasted his way into the tomb, it likely would have just stayed dust.

leaving the key to the weapon of destruction right beside it makes no sense

whats the difference between using the matrix and activating it ?

shamone wrote:leaving the key to the weapon of destruction right beside it makes no sense

whats the difference between using the matrix and activating it ?

Gotta agree with you, there. Then again, ROTF made me give up all hope of a cohesive story-telling experience from these movies.

shamone wrote:leaving the key to the weapon of destruction right beside it makes no sense

And yet it worked out quite well. In the 10,000 years since the Tomb of the Primes was "built," the Fallen never located it.

shamone wrote:whats the difference between using the matrix and activating it ?

Activating it makes it reassemble into it's non-dust form, which the Fallen would be unable to do. Using it would be plugging it into the Sun Harvester, or into another Transformer's chest to reactivate them.

whats the difference between using the matrix and activating it ?

The Primes didn't just use their bodies to seal the matrix of leadership, they put their very essense into it as the ultimate security. No one could use the matrix till it was earned. Once someone kept it and shown worthy it would reform. Which was what the Fallen was waiting for to happen. (since he likely had enough knowledge to know he wasn't going ever get his brother's approval on his own.)

When Sam has his near death experience he has the allspark in his head, and so the two artifacts are comunicating with each other. He proven worthy of a leader as he was willing to die for Optimus as he was for him. The knowledge of the all spark was then removed from Sam's head and into the matrix...which in turn was given to Optimus Prime when Sam used it to revive him. Which in the Prime's crazy vision was his destiny..(or that's what they tell all the people who have visions of them hehe.)

Once the Matrix was activated , the Fallen could then steal it. Given Optimus was there to reclaim it the Primes likely let his actions stand. Which we see Optimus with the Matrix in DotM.

Lastjustice wrote:

whats the difference between using the matrix and activating it ?

The Primes didn't just use their bodies to seal the matrix of leadership, they put their very essense into it as the ultimate security. No one could use the matrix till it was earned. Once someone kept it and shown worthy it would reform. Which was what the Fallen was waiting for to happen. (since he likely had enough knowledge to know he wasn't going ever get his brother's approval on his own.)

When Sam has his near death experience he has the allspark in his head, and so the two artifacts are comunicating with each other. He proven worthy of a leader as he was willing to die for Optimus as he was for him. The knowledge of the all spark was then removed from Sam's head and into the matrix...which in turn was given to Optimus Prime when Sam used it to revive him. Which in the Prime's crazy vision was his destiny..(or that's what they tell all the people who have visions of them hehe.)

Once the Matrix was activated , the Fallen could then steal it. Given Optimus was there to reclaim it the Primes likely let his actions stand. Which we see Optimus with the Matrix in DotM.

well im sorry but thst jsut speculation

its a pretty **** defence system, if its found by someone worthy, then anyone can use it

shamone wrote:well im sorry but thst jsut speculation

Are you even reading this thread? The whole point is to use speculation to fill in the gaps.

shamone wrote:its a pretty **** defence system, if its found by someone worthy, then anyone can use it

Call it ****, it worked out. And don't forget, The Fallen is one of the original Primes. We have absolutely no idea to his amount of insight, power, affinity or involvement with the Matrix. That is to say, by all assumptions it would be unlikely that if Megatron or Starscream had grabbed the Matrix after it reassembled that they could use it in any way whatsoever.

shamone wrote:well im sorry but thst jsut speculation

Entire point. This thread. Check.

Shadowman wrote:

shamone wrote:well im sorry but thst jsut speculation

Are you even reading this thread? The whole point is to use speculation to fill in the gaps.

Shamone loves being difficult when it comes to these films, I'm used to it.

Lastjustice wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

shamone wrote:well im sorry but thst jsut speculation

Are you even reading this thread? The whole point is to use speculation to fill in the gaps.

Shamone loves being difficult when it comes to these films, I'm used to it.

im just saying that its not fact speculation so it may be true it may not be.

no need for the attitude

It was neither of them, it was the will of the Force.

Found this slightly amusing, given the topic; Linkage.

shamone wrote:im just saying that its not fact speculation so it may be true it may not be.

I don't think that was ever in question though.

shamone wrote:

Lastjustice wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

shamone wrote:well im sorry but thst jsut speculation

Are you even reading this thread? The whole point is to use speculation to fill in the gaps.

Shamone loves being difficult when it comes to these films, I'm used to it.

im just saying that its not fact speculation so it may be true it may not be.

no need for the attitude

I'm starting to think you're doing this on purpose. We know it's speculation. We know it's not necessarily true. We're just using it to fill in whatever gaps were in the official story.

Covenant wrote:Found this slightly amusing, given the topic; Linkage.

shamone wrote:im just saying that its not fact speculation so it may be true it may not be.

I don't think that was ever in question though.

I love the shortpacked. Hopefully for next trilogy they have more plans that are a bit less convoluted.