Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Starscream GaGa wrote:A few days ago you were talking about how the ending of the book showed that movie Megatron "wasn't just a Saturday-morning cartoon villain."

Do you just change your mind depending on what's in the actual movie or something?

Well, yes. Lacking I context made a poor criticism of the scene. It's easy to see the book's ending as superior lacking the context that the most important of all the resources on Earth was seven billion slave laborers to get such a task completed. That's not the kind of thing you can easily come across in the universe, ya know.

So to sum up the books ending: it ignores Megatron's character and motivations and relies on Optimus trusting a backstabbing war criminal ontop of the fact that even with the resources of a different world the rebuilding can't be done without Earth's population as a labor force.

Doesn't help that how the scene plays out in fact is different from how it played out in my head reading the spoilers. I expected a speach on Megatron's part, something to show he'd changed and realized his omnicidal crusade was wrong. In actual fact this didn't happen.

In short: I was wrong to support the scene originally because I didn't know enough about it.

Don't forget Megatron "killed" Optimus in ROTF. What better way to get revenge than to return the favor?

Capt.Failure wrote:Doesn't help that how the scene plays out in fact is different from how it played out in my head reading the spoilers. I expected a speach on Megatron's part, something to show he'd changed and realized his omnicidal crusade was wrong. In actual fact this didn't happen.

There was a speech. Megatron explained that he was tired of the war and finished with destroying, wanting to go back to cybertron to try creating for a change.

It wasn't just the scene in the movie, I'm positive the reason it was changed was because of time constraints concerning Megatron's speech, as well as Optimus' responses.

I think it was done to close up the series more.
Killing Megatron really ends the series. Leaving him alive doesn't give the average movie goer a sense of satisfaction.

The books are written for fans, the movies are made for everyone. Most people dont want to see the villain get away, and if he does, they expect a sequel.

Capt.Failure wrote:

anDarty wrote:It sort of reminded me of a person holding thier hand out to an animal and getting mauled for it that scene lol...
In retrospect Megatron definately had it coming, but I can't help but feel like Prime could've found another way to deal with him, whatever his motivations (purely selfish no doubt as usual) he did save Primes life. If they wanted Prime to kill him, have Megs say something like 'I wanted to be the one to kill you!' And then Prime, reluctantly has to kill him... seems less messy...
Not to mention, now that all the main 'con leaders have bit the dust, who better to pull the rogues back in line than Megatron?
Seemed like Prime was all too ready to obliterate Megatron, the same charecter he lamented losing 'as a brother' in the first one.
My two cents...

He lamented him in the first film, but the following two clearly showed Megatron would never stop. I imagine after two more goes Optimus finally got sick of his crap and saw him as beyond redemption.

I can agree to that, it was definitely justified, I would've liked to see it end differently but on that note it works.

Having just seen it again, my impression is that nowhere does Megatron show a possibility of change except when he looks up at Cybertron and says that it is saved, showing a hint of nobler intent rather than just conquest and tyranny. Also, he spared Carly's life.

I think the main issue for me - and I suppose maybe a few others - is the way Prime behaves. I'm used to Prime being noble and honourable. To suddenly attack someone who seems to be supplicating or offering truce just doesn't quite gel with my opinion of him. That impression is perhaps compounded by the thoroughly ridiculous short 3 seconds it took for Prime to kill him, making it seem completely like a sucker punch type situation with no fighting chance for Megatron.

Even then, watching it a second time, this seems already set up at that point where Prime vows to destroy all the Decepticons, that the Decepticons will never leave, etc. So it's not rejecting the truce that spoils it for me, it's the bloodthirsty, one-sided nature of it.

Him killing Sentinel after that though, I think makes perfect sense and is consistent with his beheading of Bonecrusher in TFTM and his execution of Demolisher in ROTF.

Cheesinator wrote:In this one scene, Megatron actively saves Optimus' life (he could have let Sentinel kill him, and then shoot Sentinel, or could have killed the weakened Optimus himself, but chose to do neither), and then offers peace. Optimus responds by immediately murdering him. I can't be the only one who thought there was something wrong with this.

I have not seen the movie yet and I keep asking myself after reading this, "do I really want to see this movie now?"..

Yeah, and after that (and Sentinel's similarly unnecessary execution), Prime just says a few words about freedom and Earth being home, and the movie abruptly ends. The rest of the movie is good, but the ending is just dire.

Capt.Failure wrote:That's my point, it wouldn't and it didn't. And the destruction of a life bearing planet and/or it's inhabitants is hardly a justifiable consequence.

But the Autobots wiping out the Decepticons and destroying Cybertron is okay? I'm not saying Megatron's a good guy by any means, but the Autobots and humans seem JUST as happy to inflict onto the other side what they are being threatened with (ie, genocide and planetary destruction). Neither side is better than the other;, both are fighting to save their own skins, no matter the cost. Megatron offering a truce by the end (and we know that this was originally meant to lead into him leaving to rebuild Cybertron) was by FAR the most peaceful and diplomatic thing any of the characters did in the movie...perhaps even the whole series.

That said, it was ridiculously out of character for Megs. Aside from that little moment when he sees Cybertron, there's no build up to it at all. As it is, that should have been developed more, and Prime should have accepted...or Megs should never have displayed any redeeming qualities and thus his death at the end woulda been just dandy. Mixing the two paths together results in this rather odd situation where Megatron seems to have randomly turned kinda good, but Prime's a mean bast@rd and kills him anyway.

The ending really was kind of convoluted and confusing. This is how I saw it.

Sentinel was clearly not out to kill optimus. He spared him once, and was sparing him again, he didn't outright kill him. He was certainly trying to incapacitate him. Removing a limb, not his head.
Megatron doesn't save Optimus's life at all. As Optimus wasn't going to be killed by Sentinel.
Megatron jumps in to fight sentinel while he's distracted and is doing seemingly ok against him.
With everyone weakened, prime goes like, super saiyan and kills the both of them.

It all happens so fast, and this, what could have been interesting and awesome three way face off, just ends really abruptly with optimus as the last man standing.

Optimus was crawling on the ground with a gun pointed at him. He was doomed.

Screamfleet wrote:
Sentinel was clearly not out to kill optimus. He spared him once, and was sparing him again, he didn't outright kill him. He was certainly trying to incapacitate him. Removing a limb, not his head.

Having watched it again, I can almost be certain that Sentinel was going to kill Prime. The removing the limb was part of the fight. Sentinel was definitely about to administer the coup-de-grace on Prime.

Capt.Failure wrote:Three attempts to destroy Earth. Uncountable human casualties. Betrayed the Cybertronians before and convinced Sentinel to betray the Autobots.

And letting him live really seems like a good idea? If you ask me, he had it coming. That entire scene came off as Megatron saying, "I just shot the guy I promised to work with because I wanna be in charge! Wanna work together, despite all the crap I've pulled across three films and the countless human and Autobot deaths I've inflicted?"

I don't question Optimus' judgement there for a second. He had to die.

Yup.

I think it's very telling about our collective state of mind that so many people fail to realize this kind of thing. For the collective good, decisive action is necessary on occasions such as this.

the treatment of megan fox was a real douche bag move. Iind of like when a girl dumps you and you tell all your mates, i never really liker and she was ugly anyway and her breath stank. It was a low petty move, Bay should show some maturity in that respect (i am not blaming the writer for those parts, he could have left them out). It was school playground stuff, on a global scale.

And tbf megan right move, because all she would have got out the movie is the same treatment as whats her face, long lingering gratuitious shots of her body



As for megatron. Not enough of him in it. There was the semblnae of character but it wasnt developed at all

I saw the movie last night and they really screwed up Megatron. He was only in like 4 scenes and even then, as Carly says: He's just Sentinel's bitch.

They also screwed the freak out of Optimus in the end. I liked his brutality in ROTF, but here he's just freaking psychotic. I mean did he really have to kill Megatron in five seconds flat without even considering his proposal? Thyen he just turns on Sentinel and blows his processor all over the screen. Then I thought Optimus was turning into a Decepticon when the movie started playing the epic music after Optimus looks among the battle field after defeating (slaughtering) Sentinel. I thought he was going to say something like "What have I done?". But no, he just says that he'll never sacrifice freedom. Ain't that a bitch. I can't vbelieve the series ended with...that though. This series deserved something better than that.

SlyTF1 wrote:I saw the movie last night and they really screwed up Megatron. He was only in like 4 scenes and even then, as Carly says: He's just Sentinel's bitch.

They also screwed the freak out of Optimus in the end. I liked his brutality in ROTF, but here he's just freaking psychotic. I mean did he really have to kill Megatron in five seconds flat without even considering his proposal? Thyen he just turns on Sentinel and blows his processor all over the screen. Then I thought Optimus was turning into a Decepticon when the movie started playing the epic music after Optimus looks among the battle field after defeating (slaughtering) Sentinel. I thought he was going to say something like "What have I done?". But no, he just says that he'll never sacrifice freedom. Ain't that a bitch. I can't vbelieve the series ended with...that though. This series deserved something better than that.

I see it in line with his execution of the cons in ROTF. Thats the prime wants him to be, so thats who he is.

Its not out of character for the movies, just out of character for a hero, and Optimus Prime most of us know

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:I saw the movie last night and they really screwed up Megatron. He was only in like 4 scenes and even then, as Carly says: He's just Sentinel's bitch.

They also screwed the freak out of Optimus in the end. I liked his brutality in ROTF, but here he's just freaking psychotic. I mean did he really have to kill Megatron in five seconds flat without even considering his proposal? Thyen he just turns on Sentinel and blows his processor all over the screen. Then I thought Optimus was turning into a Decepticon when the movie started playing the epic music after Optimus looks among the battle field after defeating (slaughtering) Sentinel. I thought he was going to say something like "What have I done?". But no, he just says that he'll never sacrifice freedom. Ain't that a bitch. I can't vbelieve the series ended with...that though. This series deserved something better than that.

I see it in line with his execution of the cons in ROTF. Thats the prime wants him to be, so thats who he is.

Its not out of character for the movies, just out of character for a hero, and Optimus Prime most of us know

At least he still likes ripping people's faces off. I did like how Megatron's hand landed on the ground in a similar way that Bonecrusher's did in the first movie when Optimus took his head off. It was Optimus's last kill reflecting on his first kill.

Counterpunch wrote:Yup.

I think it's very telling about our collective state of mind that so many people fail to realize this kind of thing. For the collective good, decisive action is necessary on occasions such as this.

I think it's very telling of someone to be so comfortable with the idea of a hero slaughtering someone who just saved your life and offered a truce.

Besides, this isn't Hitler were talking about. It's a giant robot in a fictional story, regardless of what we ourselves would do in real life, it isn't the type of schmut we want on out cinema screens!

There are lots of reasons to dislike that scene besides Prime's slaughtering: it was rushed, anticlimatic, Megatron went out like a bitch, we had a happier ending dangled in front of our faces for a month beforehand...

From what I've read I'd have to concur that it's a pretty crappy and anti-climactic end for Megatron. If Megatron had to take out Sentinel, I wouldn't have had him immediately drop his eval persona and bid for a truce... I'd have had him blow a chunk right out of Sentinel, have Prime a little shocked at being saved by Megatron... Then have Megatron say something like "You're next, Prime!" and then have them duke it out for one last hurrah before putting Megatron down in the heat of battle.

They've been at each others throats for almost three decades now, I think Megatron deserves to go out with bang rather than a whimper.

SlyTF1 wrote:I did like how Megatron's hand landed on the ground in a similar way that Bonecrusher's did in the first movie when Optimus took his head off. It was Optimus's last kill reflecting on his first kill.

Yes there was symmetry in that! Whether intentional or not though, will we ever know.

Tekka wrote:... and then have them duke it out for one last hurrah before putting Megatron down in the heat of battle.

They've been at each others throats for almost three decades now, I think Megatron deserves to go out with bang rather than a whimper.

That's just it! It felt like such a rush job, as if they had their last remaining funds good only for about 15 seconds CGI... It would have been awesome to see a one on one again to mirror the other one in TFTM where Prime really got owned by Megatron. It just MADE NO SENSE to have Megatron seemingly healthy and hale one moment, and then

Not to mention that Prime not only looked psychotic, he was sadistic as well. "Where would you be without me?" "Let's find out!" before doing a Predator on him. That sort of flippancy just isn't Prime. If they'd had a bit more of a fight it would have brought things more to a satisfying end. If they'd shown Megatron actually engaged in battle and being seriously wounded it would have made more logic. And if they'd shown Megatron to be an out and out evil bastard, it would have been a bit more excusable.

I think CLOSURE is the word I really want.

The way I see it (Not that anyone cares, though) is this:Megatron offers truce to Optimus, but in term that he'll be the leader. That obviously doesn't equal with freedom for which Optimus stands for. So he delivers Megatron what he had coming for a long time. Megatron is caught off his guard by this and he doesn't have even a slightest chance. Then Optimus turns to disarmed Sentinel, his predecessor, his idol, his brother autobot, who had betrayed not only him, but all Autobots and what they stand for. And his act, which caused deaths of countless lives, including a brethren Autobot Ironhide, gets punished by Optimus, including Sentinels greatest error: in attempt to do what he thought was right, he became the very thing he fought against: a tyrannical Decepticon. And what he said:

"Can't you see that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few!"

does not make his errors less forgivable.

Maybe Optimus could have done something different: he could have executed Sentinel mercifully, less painfully, but after Megatron had beat him to almost death, it would have made little difference.

PS: Spoilered just in case.

Capt.Failure wrote:

GodMagnus wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:Three attempts to destroy Earth. Uncountable human casualties. Betrayed the Cybertronians before and convinced Sentinel to betray the Autobots.

And letting him live really seems like a good idea? If you ask me, he had it coming. That entire scene came off as Megatron saying, "I just shot the guy I promised to work with because I wanna be in charge! Wanna work together, despite all the crap I've pulled across three films and the countless human and Autobot deaths I've inflicted?"

I don't question Optimus' judgement there for a second. He had to die.

I wouldn't say that he convinced Sentinel Prime to do anything. In the first movie, Ironhide saw the humans as pests. The Fallen, who was a Prime, looked down on the humans. So I don't think it's a stretch for Sentinel Prime to choose to side with Megatron for the greater good for Cybertron. It's not like Megatron pulled his arm. He made his case and SP agreed.

The motivation doesn't change the crime in this case.

That's the thing though, the crime of convincing Sentinel Prime to betray tha Autobots I don't think was so major. Mostly because I don't think Megatron did much convincing. I don't think this was like the Emperor seducing Anikin to the dark side. I think it's more like he found a willing partner. And even with that, S. Prime didn't see Megatron as a equal or superior. Now to me, it just looks like that Cybertronians in general don't hold humans in high regard, and with all his talk of respecting all life, when the existence of his race came into question, S. Prime didn't have a issue subjugating another race for the salvation of his own. And if it wasn't for Optimus Prime being a factor, who's to say that there would have been a betrayal?

GodMagnus wrote:That's the thing though, the crime of convincing Sentinel Prime to betray tha Autobots I don't think was so major. Mostly because I don't think Megatron did much convincing. I don't think this was like the Emperor seducing Anikin to the dark side. I think it's more like he found a willing partner. And even with that, S. Prime didn't see Megatron as a equal or superior. Now to me, it just looks like that Cybertronians in general don't hold humans in high regard, and with all his talk of respecting all life, when the existence of his race came into question, S. Prime didn't have a issue subjugating another race for the salvation of his own. And if it wasn't for Optimus Prime being a factor, who's to say that there would have been a betrayal?

Let's also not forget the cold and calculated way Sentinel Prime murdered Ironhide. It wasn't just a matter of shoting to escape. He shot Ironhideand shot him again, actually enjoying it, saying something like "You're discharged from duty" or some such. Although it would have been NICE if there was SOME emotion over Ironhide's death shown onscreen. Another unsatisfying bit of logic. Even Jazz had an "Awww Jazz".

That scene with Ironhide dying should really remove doubt as to whether Sentinel deserved to die or not. But in context of Megatron, it would have been very useful to have some similar scene like that which Megatron to explain Prime's action. Megatron just didn't come across as being a really evil bastard, especially for movie goers who may not have seen the first two. Mostly, Megatron seems to be to be just a tired old warrior in the movie.

The impression I got from Megatron was that he was offering a temporary truce. It felt like he just wanted to lead his troops out of this battle and live to fight another day. He didn't say anything about a treaty or ending the war. The fact that he asked to remain in command undercuts the whole thing. You don't let the dictator/war criminal remain in charge unless you want to end up fighting him and his army all over again later on. Him returning to peacefully rebuild Cybertron and Prime letting him do that would have left a bad taste in my mouth.

As for the final battle, Megatron did shoot a beat up Sentinel in the back, thats how he took him down so easily. As for Megatron going down quickly, I always got the impression he wasn't at full power. He was missing a good size chunk of his head throughout the whole movie and had those...things crawling all over him. I also think thats why he stayed out of most of the fighting. A lot of this felt like Megatron's last, desperate attempt at victory. When it failed he had nothing left but try to talk his way out of it, and Prime wasn't buying it.

Cheesinator wrote:
But the Autobots wiping out the Decepticons and destroying Cybertron is okay? I'm not saying Megatron's a good guy by any means, but the Autobots and humans seem JUST as happy to inflict onto the other side what they are being threatened with (ie, genocide and planetary destruction). Neither side is better than the other;, both are fighting to save their own skins, no matter the cost. Megatron offering a truce by the end (and we know that this was originally meant to lead into him leaving to rebuild Cybertron) was by FAR the most peaceful and diplomatic thing any of the characters did in the movie...perhaps even the whole series.

That said, it was ridiculously out of character for Megs. Aside from that little moment when he sees Cybertron, there's no build up to it at all. As it is, that should have been developed more, and Prime should have accepted...or Megs should never have displayed any redeeming qualities and thus his death at the end woulda been just dandy. Mixing the two paths together results in this rather odd situation where Megatron seems to have randomly turned kinda good, but Prime's a mean bast@rd and kills him anyway.

The Decepticons started the War. They were the aggressors in the conflict.