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Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby MINDVVIPE » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:06 pm

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cotss2012 wrote:Instead of degrading the quality of CGI used, why not just... I don't know... rely less on CGI, and more on stuff that's actually there? Animatronics and "guy in a suit" effects" have served us pretty well in the past. Also, reducing the complexity of the transformations would take a chunk out of the CGI budget AND produce better-looking robots as a result.


Better looking my ass. They'd look like crap!!! A damn guy in a robot costume walking around and pretending to transform into a car does not look good.

Hahaha. Image

Hey, atleast it looks 100% real... and didn't cost much.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby LadyBug » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:29 pm

MINDVVIPE wrote:Hey, atleast it looks 100% real... and didn't cost much.


You have no idea about how much money, time or effort goes into one of those.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:33 am

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MINDVVIPE wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
cotss2012 wrote:Instead of degrading the quality of CGI used, why not just... I don't know... rely less on CGI, and more on stuff that's actually there? Animatronics and "guy in a suit" effects" have served us pretty well in the past. Also, reducing the complexity of the transformations would take a chunk out of the CGI budget AND produce better-looking robots as a result.


Better looking my ass. They'd look like crap!!! A damn guy in a robot costume walking around and pretending to transform into a car does not look good.

Hahaha. Image

Hey, atleast it looks 100% real... and didn't cost much.

Do you really think the same effects they use for Power Rangers and Godzilla movies would work today? People would be rolling on the floor laughing as soon as they showed up on screen.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby cotss2012 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:07 am

MINDVVIPE wrote:I don't believe that. You have to spend more time to come up with or refine your story and characters; that time is money.


Orci and Kurtzman wrote how many scripts in 2006, exactly?

SlyTF1 wrote:Better looking my ass. They'd look like crap!!! A damn guy in a robot costume walking around and pretending to transform into a car does not look good.


Obviously, costumes wouldn't be used for the transformation sequences. But if you just have the characters standing around and talking, there's no reason why that has to be animated. The actors' movements would have to look right, too. Remember Robocop?

I also think there's a type of animation that has yet to be developed; namely, a hybrid of go-motion and bullet-time (both of which were variations on stop-motion), in which the animation is first done as stop-motion and then computers calculate and add motion blur by comparing consecutive frames.

Bottom line: using CGI for everything is the lazy, expensive way, and we shouldn't assume that every single second of on-screen robots will be cooked up as textures and wireframes.
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:41 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:Because I hate fully CGI movies!
And you are but one out of millions of moviegoers. Besides, while done in full CGI, such movies as Beowulf, The Polar Express, and even that awful Mars Needs Moms movie had such brilliant CGI that at times looked more like live action than not.

cotss2012 wrote:Instead of degrading the quality of CGI used, why not just... I don't know... rely less on CGI, and more on stuff that's actually there? Animatronics and "guy in a suit" effects have served us pretty well in the past.
Erm, I dunno. Maybe if the Japanese did it for a Transformers Tokusatsu*, but I can't seen it done for a Hollywood movie.

* - I once made a thread about how Masterforce might work as a Tokusatsu. ;)


Also, it IS possible to diminish the complexity of the robot designs for live action CGI and have them still look good. Just look at this video. These are the G1 designs, yet these CG models (with some slight modifications to look a tad bit more realistic) would totally fit in a live action production.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby cotss2012 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:50 pm

Sabrblade wrote:Also, it IS possible to diminish the complexity of the robot designs for live action CGI and have them still look good.


"Still" look good? They'd look better than those piles of metal shavings that we saw in theaters! That's why I suggested simplifying the designs instead of going with overall lower-quality CGI.
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:53 pm

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cotss2012 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Also, it IS possible to diminish the complexity of the robot designs for live action CGI and have them still look good.


"Still" look good? They'd look better than those piles of metal shavings that we saw in theaters! That's why I suggested simplifying the designs instead of going with overall lower-quality CGI.


Simplified designs would look stupid in live action. As would people running around in costumes.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:53 pm

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cotss2012 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Also, it IS possible to diminish the complexity of the robot designs for live action CGI and have them still look good.


"Still" look good? They'd look better than those piles of metal shavings that we saw in theaters! That's why I suggested simplifying the designs instead of going with overall lower-quality CGI.
I said "good", not "great". ;)


SlyTF1 wrote:Simplified designs would look stupid in live action.
Didn't you see the video I posted?
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:04 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:Simplified designs would look stupid in live action.
Didn't you see the video I posted?


I did. Like 500 times. But they're not interacting with real people. If they where, they'd look dumb as hell.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:09 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:Simplified designs would look stupid in live action.
Didn't you see the video I posted?


I did. Like 500 times. But they're not interacting with real people. If they where, they'd look dumb as hell.
Can you prove it?
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:13 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:Simplified designs would look stupid in live action.
Didn't you see the video I posted?


I did. Like 500 times. But they're not interacting with real people. If they where, they'd look dumb as hell.
Can you prove it?



It looks like a video game.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:27 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:Simplified designs would look stupid in live action.
Didn't you see the video I posted?


I did. Like 500 times. But they're not interacting with real people. If they where, they'd look dumb as hell.
Can you prove it?



It looks like a video game.
To you, maybe. Can you prove it with facts?
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:36 pm

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I don't think simpler designs would work for a live action Transformers movie. Lets take Optimus for example, his arms and head go into the cab of the truck when he transforms. So where is the interior of the truck supposed to go? You can't have all that mass just appear and disappear like it did in G1. That was something that always bothered me as a kid. Parts would just disappear and other parts would reappear out of nowhere. It made them look like they were made of play-doh or something.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:47 pm

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Evil_the_Nub wrote:I don't think simpler designs would work for a live action Transformers movie. Lets take Optimus for example, his arms and head go into the cab of the truck when he transforms. So where is the interior of the truck supposed to go? You can't have all that mass just appear and disappear like it did in G1. That was something that always bothered me as a kid. Parts would just disappear and other parts would reappear out of nowhere. It made them look like they were made of play-doh or something.
There is a good compromising solution to this. Recall how the Binaltech/Alternators and Alternity designs looked. Those designs were more visually simple than the movie designs, yet complex enough to change from realistic vehicle modes with intact interiors. The Robot Mode designs hearkened back to G1 while updating them a bit with more modern day styles and engineering. These designs are like a halfway point between the insectoid Bionicle looks of the Movies CGI models and the more simplistic G1 character designs. Something like that could suffice for a simpler yet still realistic live action design.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:03 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
Evil_the_Nub wrote:I don't think simpler designs would work for a live action Transformers movie. Lets take Optimus for example, his arms and head go into the cab of the truck when he transforms. So where is the interior of the truck supposed to go? You can't have all that mass just appear and disappear like it did in G1. That was something that always bothered me as a kid. Parts would just disappear and other parts would reappear out of nowhere. It made them look like they were made of play-doh or something.
There is a good compromising solution to this. Recall how the Binaltech/Alternators and Alternity designs looked. Those designs were more visually simple than the movie designs, yet complex enough to change from realistic vehicle modes with intact interiors. The Robot Mode designs hearkened back to G1 while updating them a bit with more modern day styles and engineering. These designs are like a halfway point between the insectoid Bionicle looks of the Movies CGI models and the more simplistic G1 character designs. Something like that could suffice for a simpler yet still realistic live action design.

True, but there's also the issue of being covered in large solid panels. Most of the Alternators have huge chests made from one solid piece of the car. That would severely limit their range of motion in robot mode. In the movie they have to do 3 very complex tasks, be a vehicle, be a robot, and switch between the 2. I think the only way to make that work in live action is to give them a complex design.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:09 pm

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Evil_the_Nub wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Evil_the_Nub wrote:I don't think simpler designs would work for a live action Transformers movie. Lets take Optimus for example, his arms and head go into the cab of the truck when he transforms. So where is the interior of the truck supposed to go? You can't have all that mass just appear and disappear like it did in G1. That was something that always bothered me as a kid. Parts would just disappear and other parts would reappear out of nowhere. It made them look like they were made of play-doh or something.
There is a good compromising solution to this. Recall how the Binaltech/Alternators and Alternity designs looked. Those designs were more visually simple than the movie designs, yet complex enough to change from realistic vehicle modes with intact interiors. The Robot Mode designs hearkened back to G1 while updating them a bit with more modern day styles and engineering. These designs are like a halfway point between the insectoid Bionicle looks of the Movies CGI models and the more simplistic G1 character designs. Something like that could suffice for a simpler yet still realistic live action design.

True, but there's also the issue of being covered in large solid panels. Most of the Alternators have huge chests made from one solid piece of the car. That would severely limit their range of motion in robot mode. In the movie they have to do 3 very complex tasks, be a vehicle, be a robot, and switch between the 2. I think the only way to make that work in live action is to give them a complex design.
Of course, there would be some modifications made to the Alternators design to makes them more articulated. Though, not all of them has huge single piece torsos. Sideswipe's chest was simple in design, but complex in engineering with a bunch of parts folding inward and such.

At the very least, the Movie designs could be given more humanoid-looking faces and heads. Recall how disfigured the Twins and most of the Decepticons looked? A lot of the TF 2010 face designs, however, were a breath of fresh air. ;)
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby cotss2012 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:35 pm

I just learned about this a few minutes ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_the_Robot

Videos of this thing are all over Youtube, and they look AWESOME. Just imagine what the guys at the Jim Henson or Stan Winston companies could do with a hundred million dollars and a green screen.
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Dagon » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:08 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:Because I hate fully CGI movies!
And you are but one out of millions of moviegoers. Besides, while done in full CGI, such movies as Beowulf, The Polar Express, and even that awful Mars Needs Moms movie had such brilliant CGI that at times looked more like live action than not.


And, since that is used to hush people who didn't like the Transformers movies, it is a perfectly applicable response here.
The movies you mention were flops, but from my understanding, it wasn't because of the CGI. Only one I saw was Beowulf, and the cgi was not what was wrong with that film, I will tell you.

Sabrblade wrote:Also, it IS possible to diminish the complexity of the robot designs for live action CGI and have them still look good. Just look at this video. These are the G1 designs, yet these CG models (with some slight modifications to look a tad bit more realistic)


OMFG THIS IS NOT G1!!!!!!!!!

But, idiocy aside, I think it stupid to believe that the live action designs are utterly unsustainable without an overkill of complexity. Having no engineering credentials to my name, I still would bet that Bayverse Prime would look believable if you didn't seen a whole bunch of spinning gears in his shoulder during a close up. I think that at some point we have to see the uber-complexity as being designers and animators kind of showing off their skills to some extent, which is completely fine. Kind of like "Hey, look at how many moving parts we can animate at once!" And I am not saying that isn't cool, just that I doubt it's totally necessary. So I think the designs could be simplified a little if the situation called for it.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:39 pm

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Dagon wrote:And, since that is used to hush people who didn't like the Transformers movies, it is a perfectly applicable response here.
The movies you mention were flops, but from my understanding, it wasn't because of the CGI. Only one I saw was Beowulf, and the cgi was not what was wrong with that film, I will tell you.
Flps or not, they still had impressive animation quality, which is what I was getting at primarily.

Dagon wrote:OMFG THIS IS NOT G1!!!!!!!!!
It was just an example. I'm no Geewunner. The fact that the designs are G1 is superfluous. The main objective was that they are less complex designs that look realistic in that video (they just happen to be G1 designs), thus proving that the Movie designs don't need to resemble walking trash-heaps to look believable in live action.

Dagon wrote:But, idiocy aside, I think it stupid to believe that the live action designs are utterly unsustainable without an overkill of complexity. Having no engineering credentials to my name, I still would bet that Bayverse Prime would look believable if you didn't seen a whole bunch of spinning gears in his shoulder during a close up. I think that at some point we have to see the uber-complexity as being designers and animators kind of showing off their skills to some extent, which is completely fine. Kind of like "Hey, look at how many moving parts we can animate at once!" And I am not saying that isn't cool, just that I doubt it's totally necessary. So I think the designs could be simplified a little if the situation called for it.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Dagon » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:18 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
Dagon wrote:And, since that is used to hush people who didn't like the Transformers movies, it is a perfectly applicable response here.
The movies you mention were flops, but from my understanding, it wasn't because of the CGI. Only one I saw was Beowulf, and the cgi was not what was wrong with that film, I will tell you.
Flps or not, they still had impressive animation quality, which is what I was getting at primarily.

Dagon wrote:OMFG THIS IS NOT G1!!!!!!!!!
It was just an example. I'm no Geewunner. The fact that the designs are G1 is superfluous. The main objective was that they are less complex designs that look realistic in that video (they just happen to be G1 designs), thus proving that the Movie designs don't need to resemble walking trash-heaps to look believable in live action.

Dagon wrote:But, idiocy aside, I think it stupid to believe that the live action designs are utterly unsustainable without an overkill of complexity. Having no engineering credentials to my name, I still would bet that Bayverse Prime would look believable if you didn't seen a whole bunch of spinning gears in his shoulder during a close up. I think that at some point we have to see the uber-complexity as being designers and animators kind of showing off their skills to some extent, which is completely fine. Kind of like "Hey, look at how many moving parts we can animate at once!" And I am not saying that isn't cool, just that I doubt it's totally necessary. So I think the designs could be simplified a little if the situation called for it.
Thank you.


On the first part, I knew what you meant. That's why I said that their being flops was not due to their CGI. All I saw was Beowulf, and it was marvelously animated. It's problems were not due to animation.
The not G1 thing was for my own personal laffs, as any time G1 is mentioned in this forum, people wet the bed with cries that these movies aren't G1. So, I had laffs.
But in summation, I agreed with you that the designs don't need mind-bending complexity in order to seem realistic.
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Re: Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay on TF4

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:23 pm

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Dagon wrote:On the first part, I knew what you meant. That's why I said that their being flops was not due to their CGI. All I saw was Beowulf, and it was marvelously animated. It's problems were not due to animation.
The not G1 thing was for my own personal laffs, as any time G1 is mentioned in this forum, people wet the bed with cries that these movies aren't G1. So, I had laffs.
But in summation, I agreed with you that the designs don't need mind-bending complexity in order to seem realistic.
In fact, I think even the Prime designs would acceptable in live action. Or the WFC/FOC designs.

Or hey, since they're "alien beasts/alien vehicles" anyway, I'd imagine the Beast Machines designs (with enhanced CGI quality) looking decent in live action. Or even the Beast Wars designs (though, again, with better CGI quality, since, as they are now, they wouldn't work so well and would look more like how Ace Lightning looks).
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Sabrblade
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #90 - Dark Scorponok
Twincast / Podcast #90:
"Dark Scorponok"
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Posted: Monday, April 7th, 2014