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Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:29 am

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
People are always complaining about this guy, ranting about how he's a brute and he doesn't act like Optimus Prime should. Well, here's a news flash for you:

BAYFORMERS IS NOT A CHILDREN'S CARTOON SERIES.

In the cartoons, Decepticons are often okay with letting Autobots live as long as they can complete their missions. this is not the case in Bayformers. Decepticons are truly evil. They will kill anyone that gets in their way. You want to see some evil Decepticons? Read Reign of Starscream.

So why did I devote a paragraph to Decepticons in a post regarding Optimus Prime? Because people need to understand that sparing your enemies isn't going to get you far as an Autobot in the Movieverse. This incarnation of Optimus Prime is dealing with some real assholes. You don't win a war without killing your enemies.

This brings me to another point. People constantly claim that Optimus Prime doesn't take lives. (Warning: G1 Movie and Cybertron spoilers ahead for those of you who are new or just haven't seen this stuff yet!) Optimus Prime has been willing to kill in other continuities. In the 1986 movie, everyone's beloved G1 Optimus Prime clearly would have killed Megatron had Hot Rod not stepped in. In Transformers: Cybertron, Optimus Prime killed Galvatron. To claim that Optimus Prime does not kill is ridiculous.

So before you spout any bull about Movieverse Optimus Prime being too violent, remember that Bayformers is not your typical Transformers story. It is not directed towards little kids who hate to see characters dying left and right (remember G1?). The movie series is not simply marketed to the fans. It has to make money, so it's foolish to expect for the characters to be the ones you grew up with when you were little. There are casualties, because that's what people expect from a movie about robots fighting each other. People need to quit it with the fanbitch mentality and actually think things through logically.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:54 am

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
That is a very lovely rant, but what are you trying to prove? That bayverse and G1 Prime are not the same characters? Believe me when I say that we "haters" are acutely aware of that.

If your aim is to convince us that we should adore his personality because of that... Well, good luck.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:26 am

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:That is a very lovely rant, but what are you trying to prove? That bayverse and G1 Prime are not the same characters? Believe me when I say that we "haters" are acutely aware of that.

If your aim is to convince us that we should adore his personality because of that... Well, good luck.


Foolish, to say the least. What you're supposed to understand is that he's different for a reason. I'm not trying to make you adore his personality. I'm pointing out the flawed "reasoning" behind the mindless hate directed towards him by GEEWUNNERS. In a war, each side kills. Bayformers displays that, and rightfully so.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby RodimalToyota » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:34 am

So, you guys would trust Megatron to rebuild Cybertron and not provoke anymore war?


niave.



Prime owned in this movie, and did what he finally needed to do.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:34 am

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
Why do you say the hate is mindless? Even at its most basic level, wouldn't you believe that a personality we don't find palatable is a legitimate reason to not like a character?
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:35 am

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
RodimalToyota wrote:So, you guys would trust Megatron to rebuild Cybertron and not provoke anymore war?


niave.



Prime owned in this movie, and did what he finally needed to do.

Seriously, don't even bother. Don't invent an argument to defeat when it has no relevance to the topic.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:39 am

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:Why do you say the hate is mindless? Even at its most basic level, wouldn't you believe that a personality we don't find palatable is a legitimate reason to not like a character?


It's mindless if you refuse to at least acknowledge that there is a legitimate reason for Prime's new personality.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:44 am

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
This is a fallacy. A given situation or problem does not call for a specific personality type, we judge the merit of a personality based on how one reacts to a situation. It differs from person to person and isn't possible to define absolutely.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:50 am

Motto: "There are way too many people on this planet. We need a new plague."
Weapon: Twin Photon Blasters
In the first film he was very much G1-like. He was tough and sensible but basically got his ass kicked by Megatron until Sam stepped in.

In RotF he was let loose, and I was happy about it. I thought, "Wow, he finally grew some balls."

In DotM it was ratcheted up (no pun intended) even more, and IMO over the top. He was basically a Decepticon. No matter what the argument is, there was no distinction between he and Sentinel, other than the fact that one lived and the other died.

Overall, after taking of my G1 goggles, I approve of this Optimus Prime, largely because he was the central Autobot character. He had to show up and he did. He wasn't just a punching bag. However, his character revised what it means to be an Autobot.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:57 am

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:This is a fallacy. A given situation or problem does not call for a specific personality type, we judge the merit of a personality based on how one reacts to a situation. It differs from person to person and isn't possible to define absolutely.


False. A situation in which the Decepticons fight to kill warrants an Autobot leader who isn't afraid to kill his enemies. If Movieverse Optimus Prime had the personality of G1 Optimus Prime, he would have been killed repeatedly (because the Matrix of Leadership can bring him back whenever he dies, apparently).

I'm generous with the spoiler tags.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Cheesinator » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:01 pm

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No one cares that Optimus is willing to kill. It's more the way he often executes beaten/defenceless foes, or or that he does it in sadistic ways. Like, ripping off someone's face while taunting them about it? That's kinda...creepy.

Throughout DOTM, all his kills were justified. He killed Decepticons who were trying to kill him. It's only at the end, he kills two guys who either cannot harm him or had absolutely no intention to. Both guys were assholes, sure...but they were defeated and no longer threats.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:07 pm

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
Treetop Maximus wrote:
Tekka wrote:This is a fallacy. A given situation or problem does not call for a specific personality type, we judge the merit of a personality based on how one reacts to a situation. It differs from person to person and isn't possible to define absolutely.


False. A situation in which the Decepticons fight to kill warrants an Autobot leader who isn't afraid to kill his enemies. If Movieverse Optimus Prime had the personality of G1 Optimus Prime, he would have been killed repeatedly (because the Matrix of Leadership can bring him back whenever he dies, apparently).

I'm generous with the spoiler tags.

It isn't false at all. You're blinded by the violence argument alone. The action taken isn't relevant to the personality. One can still be a good person and kill his enemies when it is called for, that's what I would consider heroic.

What separates the personalities of the Optimus Primes is how they define themselves inside and outside of combat.

My favourite example, Demolisher. Summary execution and open mockery of a disabled combatant is deplorable in my eyes, but apparently not in yours. This supports my statement, and disproves your insinuation that the hatred is mindless.

Your earlier example of G1 Prime preparing execute Megatron is also a fallacy because you don't have proof that he would have executed Megatron on the spot, you can only guess.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Counterpunch » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:07 pm

Motto: "...and I used to be such a nice guy."
Weapon: Jawbreaker Cannon
Cheesinator wrote:No one cares that Optimus is willing to kill. It's more the way he often executes beaten/defenceless foes, or or that he does it in sadistic ways. Like, ripping off someone's face while taunting them about it? That's kinda...creepy.

Throughout DOTM, all his kills were justified. He killed Decepticons who were trying to kill him. It's only at the end, he kills two guys who either cannot harm him or had absolutely no intention to. Both guys were assholes, sure...but they were defeated and no longer threats.


No no no...

Sentinel got hit like, 3 times and had his hat knocked off. He shot friends in the back.

Megatron just 10 seconds earlier betrayed his greatest partnership.

In a good dojo, students are taught that "Dead tigers are the ones that kill you." Meaning that it's the battles you assume you've won that are easily lost. Good for Prime to finish what had to be done.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby HoundimusPrime » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:27 pm

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Weapon: Fusion Cannon
Cheesinator wrote:It's only at the end, he kills two guys who either cannot harm him or had absolutely no intention to.


Megatron would've gladly killed Optimus again, Sentinel would've probably killed Optimus for being "wrong". THEY HAD THE INTENTION OF KILLING, BOTH HAD DONE IT BEFORE!!!
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:28 pm

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:
Treetop Maximus wrote:
Tekka wrote:This is a fallacy. A given situation or problem does not call for a specific personality type, we judge the merit of a personality based on how one reacts to a situation. It differs from person to person and isn't possible to define absolutely.


False. A situation in which the Decepticons fight to kill warrants an Autobot leader who isn't afraid to kill his enemies. If Movieverse Optimus Prime had the personality of G1 Optimus Prime, he would have been killed repeatedly (because the Matrix of Leadership can bring him back whenever he dies, apparently).

I'm generous with the spoiler tags.

It isn't false at all. You're blinded by the violence argument alone. The action taken isn't relevant to the personality. One can still be a good person and kill his enemies when it is called for, that's what I would consider heroic.

What separates the personalities of the Optimus Primes is how they define themselves inside and outside of combat.

My favourite example, Demolisher. Summary execution and open mockery of a disabled combatant is deplorable in my eyes, but apparently not in yours. This supports my statement, and disproves your insinuation that the hatred is mindless.

Your earlier example of G1 Prime preparing execute Megatron is also a fallacy because you don't have proof that he would have executed Megatron on the spot, you can only guess.


Lulz. Me? Blinded? Sorry, I'm not some fanbitch who can't stand the opinions of others. Try again.

As for Demolishor, what would you have done with him? Are the Autobots expected to set up a cozy little prison for every Decepticon they defeat? Of course not. They would get free eventually.

Regarding the G1 example, you don't seem too familiar with the scene at all. Optimus points his gun directly at Megatron. When Hot Rod tackles Megatron, Optimus clearly tells him "Out of the way, Hot Rod." He wouldn't have said that if he hadn't been planning to fire at Megatron.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:34 pm

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
Treetop Maximus wrote:
Tekka wrote:
Treetop Maximus wrote:
Tekka wrote:This is a fallacy. A given situation or problem does not call for a specific personality type, we judge the merit of a personality based on how one reacts to a situation. It differs from person to person and isn't possible to define absolutely.


False. A situation in which the Decepticons fight to kill warrants an Autobot leader who isn't afraid to kill his enemies. If Movieverse Optimus Prime had the personality of G1 Optimus Prime, he would have been killed repeatedly (because the Matrix of Leadership can bring him back whenever he dies, apparently).

I'm generous with the spoiler tags.

It isn't false at all. You're blinded by the violence argument alone. The action taken isn't relevant to the personality. One can still be a good person and kill his enemies when it is called for, that's what I would consider heroic.

What separates the personalities of the Optimus Primes is how they define themselves inside and outside of combat.

My favourite example, Demolisher. Summary execution and open mockery of a disabled combatant is deplorable in my eyes, but apparently not in yours. This supports my statement, and disproves your insinuation that the hatred is mindless.

Your earlier example of G1 Prime preparing execute Megatron is also a fallacy because you don't have proof that he would have executed Megatron on the spot, you can only guess.


Lulz. Me? Blinded? Sorry, I'm not some fanbitch who can't stand the opinions of others. Try again.

As for Demolishor, what would you have done with him? Are the Autobots expected to set up a cozy little prison for every Decepticon they defeat? Of course not. They would get free eventually.

Regarding the G1 example, you don't seem too familiar with the scene at all. Optimus points his gun directly at Megatron. When Hot Rod tackles Megatron, Optimus clearly tells him "Out of the way, Hot Rod." He wouldn't have said that if he hadn't been planning to fire at Megatron.

Wow. Way to support your argument.

You're going off topic here. It's not a question of what I would have done with him, it's a question of whether or not I like what Optimus did. This is the topic we are debating, yes? If you think it's mindless of me to have an opinion you don't agree with then I guess there's nothing else for us to say.

Please, the spoiler tags for that movie really aren't necessary. But anyhow, yes he points his gun at him. But what then? If Hot Rod had not jumped in, how can you automatically assume Prime would not have accepted Megatron's surrender, only to get blown away for his folly? You can't state anything as fact without the evidence to back it up, and in this case, no evidence exists. Simple.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:41 pm

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:
Treetop Maximus wrote:
Tekka wrote:
Treetop Maximus wrote:
Tekka wrote:This is a fallacy. A given situation or problem does not call for a specific personality type, we judge the merit of a personality based on how one reacts to a situation. It differs from person to person and isn't possible to define absolutely.


False. A situation in which the Decepticons fight to kill warrants an Autobot leader who isn't afraid to kill his enemies. If Movieverse Optimus Prime had the personality of G1 Optimus Prime, he would have been killed repeatedly (because the Matrix of Leadership can bring him back whenever he dies, apparently).

I'm generous with the spoiler tags.

It isn't false at all. You're blinded by the violence argument alone. The action taken isn't relevant to the personality. One can still be a good person and kill his enemies when it is called for, that's what I would consider heroic.

What separates the personalities of the Optimus Primes is how they define themselves inside and outside of combat.

My favourite example, Demolisher. Summary execution and open mockery of a disabled combatant is deplorable in my eyes, but apparently not in yours. This supports my statement, and disproves your insinuation that the hatred is mindless.

Your earlier example of G1 Prime preparing execute Megatron is also a fallacy because you don't have proof that he would have executed Megatron on the spot, you can only guess.


Lulz. Me? Blinded? Sorry, I'm not some fanbitch who can't stand the opinions of others. Try again.

As for Demolishor, what would you have done with him? Are the Autobots expected to set up a cozy little prison for every Decepticon they defeat? Of course not. They would get free eventually.

Regarding the G1 example, you don't seem too familiar with the scene at all. Optimus points his gun directly at Megatron. When Hot Rod tackles Megatron, Optimus clearly tells him "Out of the way, Hot Rod." He wouldn't have said that if he hadn't been planning to fire at Megatron.

Wow. Way to support your argument.

You're going off topic here. It's not a question of what I would have done with him, it's a question of whether or not I like what Optimus did. This is the topic we are debating, yes? If you think it's mindless of me to have an opinion you don't agree with then I guess there's nothing else for us to say.

Please, the spoiler tags for that movie really aren't necessary. But anyhow, yes he points his gun at him. But what then? If Hot Rod had not jumped in, how can you automatically assume Prime would not have accepted Megatron's surrender, only to get blown away for his folly? You can't state anything as fact without the evidence to back it up, and in this case, no evidence exists. Simple.


So when I respond to your points, you claim I am off topic. When I provide clear evidence, you claim there is none. Typical. *Edited for general assholishness*
Last edited by Treetop Maximus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:46 pm

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
Sweet jesus, man. There's no need for that. I'm perfectly happy to debate with you but you seriously can't keep switching topics in an attempt to defeat arguments.

Whether or not what Prime did was the right thing has no bearing on whether or not it makes it right in my eyes, which is the crux of the whole argument you've brought up. I made a conscious decision that what Prime did was wrong, and accordingly expressed my dislike. It doesn't get much simpler than that!

Your main folly from the start was that huge over arcing generalization that was impossible to defend.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:07 pm

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:Sweet jesus, man. There's no need for that. I'm perfectly happy to debate with you but you seriously can't keep switching topics in an attempt to defeat arguments.


I'm sorry. I let my YouTube behavior take over there. If it's any consolation, it's not you I'm mad at. This day has been total crap for me and I went overboard.

I still stand by my entire argument.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
No worries. Let's just consider the matter closed then.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Treetop Maximus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:11 pm

Motto: "At least the opening was good."
Weapon: Railgun
Tekka wrote:No worries. Let's just consider the matter closed then.


Okay. Just to clarify, I'm not using my bad day as an excuse. I'm just mentioning it to provide insight as to why I posted what I posted.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Chupacabra Convoy » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:14 am

Motto: "Wait, we're supposed to save all humans? Are you sure?"
Weapon: Energo-Sword
While Megatron did call for a truce at the end, I'm not sure how it would work exactly. I mean would Megatron still call for the human race to be slaves to fix Cybertron? Also, considering how vastly out numbered the Autobots are, wouldn't any truce be more like a formal surrender than actual truce? It goes against Prime's main goal which was to work with humanity to protect them from the Decepticons, which was the idea from the first movie.

Further more, if Prime had accepted, it doesn't mean that the rest of the planet would've followed suit. The relationship with the humans was all ready tenuous at best. If Optimus had accepted a truce with Megatron leading both forces, then the Autobots as a whole, would've been lumped in with the cons. At that point, if I was POTUS, my finger would've been the button (IE: Launching Nukes at Chicago[I would be more triggerhappy, than Triggerhappy]). So that's one reason for killing Megatron and Sentinel Prime.

The other? They started the war. A war which caused them to cripple Cybertron. In most cases, any Megatrons' post civil war plans always involve turing Cybertron into a mobile planetary fortress to be the heart of his intergalactic empire. I am going out on a limb and assume Movie Megatron's plans were the same. Also, Sentinel and Megatron share the view that all Transformers are gods compared to anything else. So even if a truce was made, I don't think either of them would've tolerated taking orders from humanity. Prime doesn't share that view at all. Even if Humanity hates his race, he still views it as a personal responsibility to protect them. Their (Megatron's and Prime's )ideologies are just too opposite from each other to be in a peacefully coexistence for anything longer than a short amount of time. Much like Magneto and Xavier.

On a personal level, Prime (I think) was too disgusted with them to even consider a truce. He just had to destroy his home world because of them, and their ambitions. There might've been a chance to someday work towards fixing Cybertron, but now thanks to them, not only are the Transformers nearly extinct, but any hope of restoring Cybertron looks to be over, finished. In Prime's mind, if Sentinel choose to reward the Autobots' faith in Sentinel, they might've been able to win the war with the space bridge tech, but he choose to betray them. Also Megatron's mad ambition had finally went too far. Everything Prime had ever believed in or cherished was destroyed by them. After millions of years of that, I would hate them more than anything for turning me into a warmonger by default and for damn near killing everyone I ever knew. He knows what happens when two Hitlers are allowed to live. Did they show remorse? Yes, but no amount remorse shown by them justifies their continued existence.

Also, after 27 years, it is great to see Prime end it.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:37 am

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
I've stated before I think the truce was a silly idea, I also fully agree that Megatron needed to be punished for his crimes.

What I don't agree with is the apparent five second anti-climactic death he was given, instead of having a Megatron VS Prime epic battle that such a beloved character deserved to go out in. In my opinion.

In reality, whether I like Prime or not doesn't really factor into it, I'm placing blame squarely with whoever is responsible for writing that scene.

Also, If I had to blame a character, I'd blame Megatron for not taking out Prime while he was down.

Yet another graduate from the school of useless villains.
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Lastjustice » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:32 am

Motto: ""Laws only exist when there's someone there to enforce them.""
Weapon: Laser-Guided Proton Missile Cannons
Also, If I had to blame a character, I'd blame Megatron for not taking out Prime while he was down


Wouldn't have saved him or Sentinel. Only chance Megatron had was for Prime to accept the truce. I just got back from watching it again,(had to take my sisters kids. I told them id take them to see it. I watched it first in 3-D to make sure was ok.) and the pillars were deactived by time Optimus was on the ground struggling for his life. All ships were warped out, and all ground forces were dead. Megatron and Sentinel were last cons standing.


Killing Optimus would have left the remaining autobots with little reason to spare either villain. They had no other troops left, and there were plenty of humans and autobots left to over run them.

Optimus at the point Megatron had disabled Sentinel was holding all cards. Sparing either of them would just be asking for more trouble. They could lead another war if given the chance. This also after Sentinel basically calls Prime out by saying he's too soft to make the hard calls. So Prime takes his mentor's advice and starts with killing him. Both Megatron and Sentinel were counting on Optimus to be soft and let them live. Both were wrong as they'd pushed him too far.

Prime had been betrayed the deepest level possible. His closest friend killed.(brutally I might add.) at the hands of Sentinel Prime. (Jazz at the hands of Megatron.) We see a very fed up Optimus Prime upon his arrival to chicago. He's had enough of this crap. The Decepticons have had their chances, and yet they choose to keep invading his new home. Bring their war to a place innocent of it's creation.

I put myself in Prime shoes, and I'd be every bit as angry and would ended them both too. They had both earned the righteous indigation they'd received. Perhaps far worse. Either way Prime did the right thing, as the Decepticons without any of their leadership would likely be too disorganized to be a threat anytime soon.
"The question that once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own. And yet, how ironic...for I now find that I have no choice at all! I am a warrior...let the battle be joined." —Dinobot
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Re: Still complaining about Movieverse Optimus Prime?

Postby Tekka » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:38 am

Motto: "I'm grade-A, 100% prime-cut final boss! I'm going to take over the world any day now!"
Weapon: Multi-Function Sword
So Megatron was screwed anyway. Sucks to be him.
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #96 - Age of Extinction
Twincast / Podcast #96:
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