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Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Stormrider » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:44 pm

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The head so far doesn't scream Prowl.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby mandingo_rex » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:24 am

Bowspearer wrote:Quite simply put, licensing issues aside (and considering Lamborgini were on board, there's no reason to think that Porsche and VW wont be either), there is no reason, short of some global catastrophe, that the Masterpiece line wont continue for many years to come.


If I'm not mistaken (and Wikipedia seems to at least back up my partial memory on the brand ownership/partnership structures) Lamborghini is owned by Audi AG, which is owned by Volkswagen AG. And Porsche has always either been in some weird co-ownership or a partnership with VW.

With the Audi being used in the TF films and with a Lambo being officially used for the MP line, I wouldn't be surprised to see Porsche and VW buckle now. They are not in the position they were in when the Alternators/Binaltech line hit. They need money now, and I can imagine they'd be game for licensing their cars for toylines that only hit collector's hands.

Now, making it Stateside? Who knows, I have no idea how international licensing works with that.

Also, I am in the crowd who thinks they'll partially use the tech behind the Fairlady mold in a Jazz redesign. The entire upper body will likely be used to some degree. I also feel like the Lambo mold may wind up being re-engineered for Wheeljack or a similar transformation.

Parts may be completely redone, but the "thinking" behind it is already done, for the most part. I can easily see them using the rough skeleton from one for the other. Hell, the Binaltech/Alternators RX-8 was similar in transformation to the Subaru mold, too.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Bowspearer » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:40 am

Mindmaster wrote:I'm still a little niffed that they decided to make Prowl and friends over a Galvatron/Megatron Version 2. Not that I don't like Prowl: I'm really digging the mold, looks fantastic thus far. But I feel that the leaders take a little bit more priority over the lesser ranks.


I disagree. Doing it this way, they are gradually building a case for single use moulds. Give it time - I have no doubt that when we hit single use moulds, that Megatron will be the first cab off the rank.

Doc bot wrote:I just want them to do a real cartoon accurate Ironhide in his true Nissan Onebox Cherry Vanette form. Those things are so ugly that they're awesome. They already work with Nissan and can even remold it as Ratchet. Come on Takara!


I predict it'll either be this mould or the Grapple mould which will be the next small scale Masterpiece mould to hit after MP-19. I also strongly suspect that they'll [Ratchet and Ironhide] be both cartoon accurate and come complete with battle station.

mandingo_rex wrote:Also, I am in the crowd who thinks they'll partially use the tech behind the Fairlady mold in a Jazz redesign. The entire upper body will likely be used to some degree. I also feel like the Lambo mold may wind up being re-engineered for Wheeljack or a similar transformation.

Parts may be completely redone, but the "thinking" behind it is already done, for the most part. I can easily see them using the rough skeleton from one for the other. Hell, the Binaltech/Alternators RX-8 was similar in transformation to the Subaru mold, too.


Except that's the thing. Everyone is basing this around CHUG and Binartech, but the thing is that the goal with CHUG and Binartech is completely different to the goal with that Masterpiece line.

The Binartech line and CHUG lines were both based around new incarnations of classic characters in modern alt modes. It's the reason why we saw Red Alert sharing the same design as Smokescreen in Binartech and why Sideswipe shared the same design as Sunstreaker in CHUG.

The reason that this could be done was because the newer versions were not constrained by the original designs.

The paradigm with the Masterpiece line however is fundamentally different. The goal with it has always been to update the original incarnations of classic characters by infusing the original designs with enhanced articulation and engineering that wasn't feasible back when they were first made.

Every design to date has built on the original basic design in a way that has not cut corners. Look at the run to date and name one instance since MP-10 which has cut corners with the original design as opposed to enhancing it whilst remaining true to it. Furthermore if they were going to cut corners, then why hasn't Sunstreaker turned up yet?
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby mandingo_rex » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:59 am

Bowspearer wrote:Except that's the thing. Everyone is basing this around CHUG and Binartech, but the thing is that the goal with CHUG and Binartech is completely different to the goal with that Masterpiece line.

The Binartech line and CHUG lines were both based around new incarnations of classic characters in modern alt modes. It's the reason why we saw Red Alert sharing the same design as Smokescreen in Binartech and why Sideswipe shared the same design as Sunstreaker in CHUG.

The reason that this could be done was because the newer versions were not constrained by the original designs.

The paradigm with the Masterpiece line however is fundamentally different. The goal with it has always been to update the original incarnations of classic characters by infusing the original designs with enhanced articulation and engineering that wasn't feasible back when they were first made.

Every design to date has built on the original basic design in a way that has not cut corners. Look at the run to date and name one instance since MP-10 which has cut corners with the original design as opposed to enhancing it whilst remaining true to it. Furthermore if they were going to cut corners, then why hasn't Sunstreaker turned up yet?


I didn't compare the MP line to Binaltech or Classics. I used it as an example of how within the BT line, they used similar engineering from one (the Subaru, for example) and just essentially repeated it (with the RX-8). It was completely new parts, though, yet essentially the same "skeleton" transformation. There's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel completely if they create a Jazz in the MP line. They'll likely take a lot of what they learned from the Fairlady figures, and it will reflect in the designs.

As far as Sunstreaker? We won't see a Sunstreaker reusing Sideswipe tooling, I don't think. At least not from Takara. But if we get a Sunstreaker, I can easily see them reusing that Lambo transformation (this is what I meant, I didn't specify because I forgot to include it in my previous post) for Wheeljack. Roof=chest, hood=feet, that sort of thing. I don't recall all the similar G1 transformations, but didn't several of the Autobot cars transform similarly? Granted, feet may have spun around backwards or other things, but roughly there were some similarities in the designs.

Will they reskin it? No, I don't see them doing that or cutting corners. But there are a LOT of changes from the vintage figures to the MP ones. It's not just a simple update on the transformation by adding joints, some parts are significantly different.

Ravage? He is completely different. MP-10 has plenty of new twists and turns that make him way more complex, especially with the way they treat the entire wheels-hide-into-the-chest and the duplicate grill/stomach transformation. MP-05's trigger was a really significant change, swapping out the fake wheels on Red Alert, etc.

In the future, if we keep getting more Autobots, I fully expect to see figures they can easily retool/redeco first (like Hoist/Grapple/Trailbreaker) and Ratchet/Ironhide, but likely also "copy" the same transformation sequence for similar (not the same, though) like the Jazz/Fairlady example.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Megatronsdemise666 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:58 pm

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Rated X wrote:
Bowspearer wrote:
First-Aid wrote:plus a minor retool will result in Jazz/Stepper/Ricochet.


You cannot turn this:

Image

into this:

Image

with a mere minor retool. Forgetting about the difference in the shoulders, the chest transforms radically differently, the waist is fundamentally different and the feet/legs transformation is fundamentally different.

Yes Hasbro might try it because in their market, adult collectors make up the minority. However we are talking about Takara, whose bread and butter are adult collectors and where the Masterpiece line is a mainstream retail release. Furthermore Prowl and Meister are very popular characters, so there's no way in hell they're going to cut corners with either.



Oh the re-tool will happen. Remember Takara are the ones bold enough to paint Scourge purple, give him a new head, and call him Ratbat. Takara is also the one who were too lazy to remove the stupid light up hand gimmick on their version of G1 Unicron. Takara is so lazy they dont even assemble their arms microns, they give you an unasembled kit.(WTF?) Takaras strength is paint and they will make this mold look just like Jazz. The feet will spin around to simulate the proper look, and the wheels on the shoulders will probally flip up. Shoulder cannons will be clip on.



I think a retool will depend on how the two cars specs match up.

takara made sideswipe size accurate to MP-10, and the countach look is more true to the car.
I believe jazz will be different than prowl in transformation.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby GiveMeSkyfire » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:37 pm

mandingo_rex wrote:Ravage? He is completely different. MP-10 has plenty of new twists and turns that make him way more complex, especially with the way they treat the entire wheels-hide-into-the-chest and the duplicate grill/stomach transformation. MP-05's trigger was a really significant change, swapping out the fake wheels on Red Alert, etc.


This make no sense to anyone else?

The idea that Jazz will be made from this mold is ******. Not going to happen. Period. Saying that they are going to take fundamental design functions from Prowl mold to make a Jazz mold also is silly. Besides, all robots that turn to cars have "similar" design ques. They also all have arms and wheels.

If we see a Jazz it will be its own mold build from scratch. Just like every other MP toy that was not a character that was already exactly the same as its repaint.

Sorry if this sounds snotty but I get a laugh at the rampant speculation about this type of thing, esp when its said with such certainty. Unless you work for Takara, then I take it all back..... Do you?
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby mandingo_rex » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:53 pm

GiveMeSkyfire wrote:
mandingo_rex wrote:Ravage? He is completely different. MP-10 has plenty of new twists and turns that make him way more complex, especially with the way they treat the entire wheels-hide-into-the-chest and the duplicate grill/stomach transformation. MP-05's trigger was a really significant change, swapping out the fake wheels on Red Alert, etc.


This make no sense to anyone else?

The idea that Jazz will be made from this mold is ******. Not going to happen. Period. Saying that they are going to take fundamental design functions from Prowl mold to make a Jazz mold also is silly. Besides, all robots that turn to cars have "similar" design ques. They also all have arms and wheels.

If we see a Jazz it will be its own mold build from scratch. Just like every other MP toy that was not a character that was already exactly the same as its repaint.

Sorry if this sounds snotty but I get a laugh at the rampant speculation about this type of thing, esp when its said with such certainty. Unless you work for Takara, then I take it all back..... Do you?


Snotty? No, just another argumentative know-it-all on a toy board. If you don't get what I'm trying to say without trying to pick it apart, then you're the one with the comprehension problems, not me.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby GiveMeSkyfire » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:26 pm

I guess I should specify that my comment was directed in two different directions. That specific paragraph didn't make sense to me, and in addition, the whole Jazz from Prowl argument as a whole.
That said-
Sorry I don't agree with your stupid, baseless, speculations. All three pages of it.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby mandingo_rex » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:17 pm

GiveMeSkyfire wrote:I guess I should specify that my comment was directed in two different directions. That specific paragraph didn't make sense to me, and in addition, the whole Jazz from Prowl argument as a whole.
That said-
Sorry I don't agree with your stupid, baseless, speculations. All three pages of it.


Uh, okay. Way to go being all awesome on a message board. Nothing ruins a hobby more than that type of attitude among people discussing things they're interested in. Congratulations.

At this point, it's all opinions and discussion. Not sure why you have your panties in a twist. Or why you think folks who have opinions that are different than yours deserve such disdain and ridicule, when you've got no other "proof" to back up your opinion either. Nowhere in my posts, nor in most others, has anyone claimed to be some expert, or to have rock-solid belief that anything will happen in the MP line concerning the reuse of tooling. It's all speculation. You know, fun "what if" talk. Which is the whole point of this board.

Your opinions could be considered just as "******", "stupid", and "baseless" as anyone else's until there's actual production items that state otherwise. But I don't think anything I said was completely "baseless" (I thought I explained a few examples, whether not so thoroughly for you to understand I guess... Maybe it wasn't the best example, but it made sense to me) since I am not the type to simply make wild accusations or to have wild pipe dreams of my own and fantasize about things that are out of the realm of possibility. I'm generally a fairly grounded thinker, and I'm open to listening to other people's thoughts on things without resorting to name-calling or the like.

Especially when it's a topic I care about, like nerd-things such as Transformers. Not sure where the animosity comes from on these Transformers boards, but it happens a lot.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Burn » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:46 am

Play nice children ... Mods are watching.

If you want to disagree with each other, that's all fine and dandy, but lets not resort to personal attacks.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby First-Aid » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:58 am

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Bowspearer wrote:
You cannot turn this:

Image

into this:

Image

with a mere minor retool. Forgetting about the difference in the shoulders, the chest transforms radically differently, the waist is fundamentally different and the feet/legs transformation is fundamentally different.



Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:

1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.

Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another. Not quite a "repaint", but much less than a new mold altogether, saving wads of money on engineering and time to produce. The infrastructure can remain the same and only the exterior need change. This is why I say Jazz will come from this basic mold. I have both Jazz and Prowl's G1 figures. They really are not that different.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby mandingo_rex » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:38 pm

First-Aid wrote:Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:

1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.

Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another. Not quite a "repaint", but much less than a new mold altogether, saving wads of money on engineering and time to produce. The infrastructure can remain the same and only the exterior need change. This is why I say Jazz will come from this basic mold. I have both Jazz and Prowl's G1 figures. They really are not that different.


While I personally think they'll change a few things to further differentiate them, this is basically what I feel, too.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Stormrider » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:22 pm

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lol. I can't believe people are still arguing over mod changes and speculations of making this mold into Jazz. Jazz is not in the line up right now. Let's move on. It's not any different of an argument than saying that if you mod Sideswipe you'll have Sunstreaker.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:23 am

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It'll take far more than a mere retool job (no matter how extensive to turn this:
Image
Into this:
Image
Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Henry921 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:33 am

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Sabrblade wrote:Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.



I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline. There will always be ways to redo Starscream, and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.

While I want to see official MP Shockwave, a rescaled Megatron, and new molds, HasTak obviously want to get as much use out of each individual mold as possible, hence both of Prowl's redecoes to follow.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby DinobotSix » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:07 am

Henry921 wrote:and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.


like maybe reissuing OPTIMUS in quantities sufficient to meet the customer demand as well! =)
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:28 am

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Weapon: Saber Blade
Henry921 wrote:I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline.
In that sense, Jazz would still require his own mold since G1 Jazz was still his own mold separate from Prowl.

If they really wanted to milk MP redecos/remolds for all that they're worth, they would have made the Lambor mold be able to work for Sunstreaker. But, they did not, and are even doing the similarly-colored Tigertrack instead to boot.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby DinobotSix » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:02 pm

Sabrblade wrote:If they really wanted to milk MP redecos/remolds for all that they're worth, they would have made the Lambor mold be able to work for Sunstreaker. But, they did not, and are even doing the similarly-colored Tigertrack instead to boot.


With Tigertrack out there, I've got this sinking feeling that we'll never see an mp Sunstreaker. I expected to see a slight mold retool for him, but seems like Takara is moving on. Maybe Hasbro...
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby warzon3 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:09 pm

So I think Prowl should come with Chip Chase....What do you all think?
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Stormrider » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:35 pm

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That's a good accessory.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby DinobotSix » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:55 am

warzon3 wrote:So I think Prowl should come with Chip Chase....What do you all think?


COURAGE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... xMQ#t=204s

actually, that would be a pretty awesome extra!
They could make the figure and his wheelchair separate so he could fit in the car.

Though, I'm not sure PROWL would be a natural choice for Chip. Don't think he ever rolled with Prowl in the G1. *shrug*
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Bowspearer » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:57 am

First-Aid wrote:Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:

1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.

Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another.


Right so in other words, you don't own the figures and have no idea what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know that making claims of them being virtually identical and oversimplifying the transformational differences is sheer fallacy.

The fact is that the chest transformation on Jazz alone is radically different. On Jazz, you have to rotate the waist 90 degrees then slide the hood of the car back over the waist. That requires a radically different torso design to Prowl's.

That's forgetting about the radical difference in the sculpts of even similar parts on both moulds.

Furthermore, if there is such attention to detail in the Masterpiece line that Red Alert has specifically crafted upper arms, then why on earth would they cut such corners with a major character like Jazz?

mandingo_rex wrote:I didn't compare the MP line to Binaltech or Classics. I used it as an example of how within the BT line, they used similar engineering from one (the Subaru, for example) and just essentially repeated it (with the RX-8). It was completely new parts, though, yet essentially the same "skeleton" transformation. There's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel completely if they create a Jazz in the MP line. They'll likely take a lot of what they learned from the Fairlady figures, and it will reflect in the designs.

As far as Sunstreaker? We won't see a Sunstreaker reusing Sideswipe tooling, I don't think. At least not from Takara. But if we get a Sunstreaker, I can easily see them reusing that Lambo transformation (this is what I meant, I didn't specify because I forgot to include it in my previous post) for Wheeljack. Roof=chest, hood=feet, that sort of thing. I don't recall all the similar G1 transformations, but didn't several of the Autobot cars transform similarly? Granted, feet may have spun around backwards or other things, but roughly there were some similarities in the designs.

Will they reskin it? No, I don't see them doing that or cutting corners. But there are a LOT of changes from the vintage figures to the MP ones. It's not just a simple update on the transformation by adding joints, some parts are significantly different.


On the contrary, you have conflated the Masterpiece line's approach to the BT line and continue to. Your entire argument is an utter prima facie as you have failed to grasp both the engineering differences between different G1 moulds and the fact that every single Masterpiece figure's transformation has built on the transformation of the original as opposed to simplifying it (in fact the arm transformation on Sunstreaker is similar to Prowl/Jazz, rather than Wheejack). Considering that the line has turned into a gravy train for Takara, why on earth would they go against that unless they wanted to hurt their bottom line. Besides, Jazz has a Stepper retool that can be done from him so he automatically has retool value.

Heck even Red Alert had radically different upper arms to Sideswipe when they could have just used the toy design as an excuse to share moulds. Yet that never happened. That should prove how utterly baseless arguments about Prowl and Jazz sharing moulds is- let alone any parts sharing which cannot be justified as being in the best interests of the figure..

Henry921 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.


I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline. There will always be ways to redo Starscream, and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.


You've just completely contradicted yourself here. The entire point of the Masterpiece line has been to produce "masterpiece" versions of G1 toys. As such the retools and reissues will only extend as far as something was a retool and recolour in the original G1 line.

Will we get the likes of Tigertrack? Definitely, as we already are. However we wont see recolours or retools of G1 characters that were not originally retools or recolours.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby mandingo_rex » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:00 pm

Bowspearer wrote:Right so in other words, you don't own the figures and have no idea what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know that making claims of them being virtually identical and oversimplifying the transformational differences is sheer fallacy.

The fact is that the chest transformation on Jazz alone is radically different. On Jazz, you have to rotate the waist 90 degrees then slide the hood of the car back over the waist. That requires a radically different torso design to Prowl's.

That's forgetting about the radical difference in the sculpts of even similar parts on both moulds.

Furthermore, if there is such attention to detail in the Masterpiece line that Red Alert has specifically crafted upper arms, then why on earth would they cut such corners with a major character like Jazz?

----

On the contrary, you have conflated the Masterpiece line's approach to the BT line and continue to. Your entire argument is an utter prima facie as you have failed to grasp both the engineering differences between different G1 moulds and the fact that every single Masterpiece figure's transformation has built on the transformation of the original as opposed to simplifying it (in fact the arm transformation on Sunstreaker is similar to Prowl/Jazz, rather than Wheejack). Considering that the line has turned into a gravy train for Takara, why on earth would they go against that unless they wanted to hurt their bottom line. Besides, Jazz has a Stepper retool that can be done from him so he automatically has retool value.

Heck even Red Alert had radically different upper arms to Sideswipe when they could have just used the toy design as an excuse to share moulds. Yet that never happened. That should prove how utterly baseless arguments about Prowl and Jazz sharing moulds is- let alone any parts sharing which cannot be justified as being in the best interests of the figure..

----

You've just completely contradicted yourself here. The entire point of the Masterpiece line has been to produce "masterpiece" versions of G1 toys. As such the retools and reissues will only extend as far as something was a retool and recolour in the original G1 line.

Will we get the likes of Tigertrack? Definitely, as we already are. However we wont see recolours or retools of G1 characters that were not originally retools or recolours.


No need to start tossing in legal terminology or "debate team" lingo to try and boost your opinion. This isn't a court of law, and there's zero facts to base anything off from either side. There's no right and wrong at this point, it's all speculation! The difference about a courtroom and this is that in a court of law, you can disprove something. You can't disprove something that hasn't occurred yet, no matter how much you argue the case.

Look, I don't care if Jazz gets all-new tooling and hours wasted on semi-redundant new engineering or "reuses" some engineering from the Datsun mold, or if anyone else agrees with me at this point. I'm just enjoying the discussion, as silly as it is. You and those on your "side" of this argument could very well be right and Jazz will share zero similarities with Prowl, but I don't expect that will happen. I actually don't even own the vintage version of Prowl, but I've messed with it once or twice but I do own Jazz, and when I transformed my friend's Prowl, I even recall being like "Oh, it's sorta like Jazz!" The Sunstreaker/Wheeljack example was probably just a bad example. It was a casual one based off first glances with little experience with either vintage toy, so I wouldn't spend too much time trying to deconstruct that example.

Look, here are some things I do know, though, that folks keep bringing up from actual "fact" that isn't actually true, no matter how eloquently it's worded or how many debate-terms are tossed in to try and boost the argument. And I can say without a doubt, I know this from the Takara MP track record because I actually own every MP mold release to date...

• The point of the Masterpiece line is not to recreate the vintage toy with "masterpiece" articulation and design. It's to create a "masterpiece" version of the vintage figure AND the Sunbow cartoon appearance. The best of both worlds, literally. Sure, there are a few compromises, but they did a damn fine job finding the right middle ground for most of the MPs. As an example, Megatron is significantly different from his G1 toy, and while he had to follow the original's transformation somewhat, it achieves the visuals of the cartoon much more effectively than the original figure. Sideswipe's shoulders and wheels mimic the cartoon look, not the toy. True, the doors form the arms, but the wheels hide away completely.

• I'm not sure that the thing you said about Sideswipe and Red Alert's shoulders made sense to me. Did you mean the vintage figures had different transformations? Because the new ones have new molds for the shoulders, they're not exactly radically different, I don't think. The transformation is the same, and Red Alert has fake wheels on them. That's about it. If the transformation happened the same as the vintage figure, the actual wheels would be visible on both, and would've been the actual wheels on the shoulders, not tucked underneath the arms to form the bot's ribcage.

• Ultra Magnus (MP-02) was a total cop-out, and a huge "cutting corners" effort. So much in fact, that I didn't bother with MP-02. True, UM was originally a Prime repaint with a new suit-of-armor/trailer, but the end result looked nothing like Prime in robot mode once he was "suited up". While I do believe (well, really, really hope) that they'll make a new Ultra Magnus with trailer since they did completely retool Prime and not just scale him down (plus, this also milks the tooling for the main market, where not everyone will shell out the money for the Nemesis or "dark awakening" niche repaints), I feel like their efforts so far were just a cash grab. So I do consider that a cost-cutting, lazy cash grab. That's not Ultra Magnus.

Now, to jump to the other side, and argue FOR your stance, here's what is actually starting to sway my opinion, and it's nothing that's been said, really, but from the photos posted of the G1 cartoon models...

Jazz didn't have door-wings in the cartoon! And Prowl didn't have shoulder cannons! For Prowl, I think it could just be that they didn't include them in the promo shot, and we'll get them regardless with the figure. (Fingers crossed here, as I like the toy look versus the cartoon.) But it is cartoon-accurate. I think the MP version of Jazz will likely do their best to either hide the doors completely, or have them be able to be displayed with or without, so that little tidbit alone may require a significantly different transformation for Jazz, regardless of the leg transformation difference (which I personally think they have enough room to simply shift things around below the waist and still use a similar above-the-waist transformation for both Jazz and Prowl... but that's with my old thinking).

Stepper/Ricochet is also not a huge "repaint" draw from Jazz, I don't think. Sure, he can be repainted, but Stepper isn't anywhere in the realm of G1-must-have like Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen or the Seekers. If they do make Jazz, I fully expect to see Stepper, but not as an individual figure. He's more along the lines of Tigertracks or Sunstorm in terms of popularity, with the exception of Stepper actually having a vintage figure.

Anyways, enough speculation and discussion over future things. Takara's more than getting enough repaint potential out of the Datsun mold to even bother retooling it significantly for anything else. I still think we'll get an eHobby or similar repaint of at least Bluestreak in Diaclone colors, so there's also that. 4 figures out of one mold? No need to retool it.

Jazz very well could be a new mold. If it is, kudos to them, and that just makes my future collection even more awesome. I also hope to see a totally-unique Sunstreaker with an alt mode so similar to Sideswipe that I really step back and marvel at the engineering. I think that will be impressive as hell. In the meantime, I just hope they bring on as many Autobot cars as they can. There's plenty of repaint potential with slight retools to flesh out another 10 slots without even talking about significant retooling with just 2-3 new molds in the first place. I hope this line lasts till MP-50 or later.
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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Sinnertwin » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:53 pm

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Re: Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser

Postby Bowspearer » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:48 am

mandingo_rex wrote:No need to start tossing in legal terminology or "debate team" lingo to try and boost your opinion. This isn't a court of law, and there's zero facts to base anything off from either side. There's no right and wrong at this point, it's all speculation! The difference about a courtroom and this is that in a court of law, you can disprove something. You can't disprove something that hasn't occurred yet, no matter how much you argue the case.


By Zero proof, you mean Mp-10, MP-11, MP-12, MP-13, MP-14, MP-15 and MP-16, which all follow the same design philosophy which you claim there is no proof that exists?

mandingo_rex wrote:Look, I don't care if Jazz gets all-new tooling and hours wasted on semi-redundant new engineering or "reuses" some engineering from the Datsun mold, or if anyone else agrees with me at this point. I'm just enjoying the discussion, as silly as it is. You and those on your "side" of this argument could very well be right and Jazz will share zero similarities with Prowl, but I don't expect that will happen. I actually don't even own the vintage version of Prowl, but I've messed with it once or twice but I do own Jazz, and when I transformed my friend's Prowl, I even recall being like "Oh, it's sorta like Jazz!" The Sunstreaker/Wheeljack example was probably just a bad example. It was a casual one based off first glances with little experience with either vintage toy, so I wouldn't spend too much time trying to deconstruct that example.


First off, my comment about not owning the toys was directed at First Aid whose entire argument was a straight up prima facie (I'm using that civil and impersonal term, because the "layman" version of it is generally personal and inflammatory - which I'm trying to avoid here).

Secondly, we've already seen the attention to detail remoulds get. If there were going to be lazy steps taken then Red Alert wouldn't have had specially tooled biceps. The fact that they would get that pedantic with the designs means that if something isn't true to the design then we wont see it in the MP version.


mandingo_rex wrote:Look, here are some things I do know, though, that folks keep bringing up from actual "fact" that isn't actually true, no matter how eloquently it's worded or how many debate-terms are tossed in to try and boost the argument. And I can say without a doubt, I know this from the Takara MP track record because I actually own every MP mold release to date...

• The point of the Masterpiece line is not to recreate the vintage toy with "masterpiece" articulation and design. It's to create a "masterpiece" version of the vintage figure AND the Sunbow cartoon appearance. The best of both worlds, literally. Sure, there are a few compromises, but they did a damn fine job finding the right middle ground for most of the MPs. As an example, Megatron is significantly different from his G1 toy, and while he had to follow the original's transformation somewhat, it achieves the visuals of the cartoon much more effectively than the original figure. Sideswipe's shoulders and wheels mimic the cartoon look, not the toy. True, the doors form the arms, but the wheels hide away completely.


Which contradicts nothing in what I actually said. Remember the Masterpiece line is essentially doing the original designs with current engineering levels and technology- staying true to the original designs. You bring up the doors being the amrs and the added complexity, but the fact is that added complexity is still built on the foundation of the original transformation.

You can be fairly certain that if a G1 cartoon design looked a certain way that it would be the "ideal" design of the figure by both Takara and Hasbro. Remember that Hasbro had to deal with engineering limitations from 30 years prior and a 1/72 scale line which was pre-existing with the original figures.

Working off the animation sheets and from the original design only proves the attention to detail being taken by the designers and that cost cutting has no place in it.

You might find some measures, like the fake wheels are going to be employed, but it is going to be where scale issues affect the design far more than it is to cut corners. Ultimately though, it all points towards a line where the focus is on high price ticket, high authenticity products.

mandingo_rex wrote:• I'm not sure that the thing you said about Sideswipe and Red Alert's shoulders made sense to me. Did you mean the vintage figures had different transformations? Because the new ones have new molds for the shoulders, they're not exactly radically different, I don't think. The transformation is the same, and Red Alert has fake wheels on them. That's about it. If the transformation happened the same as the vintage figure, the actual wheels would be visible on both, and would've been the actual wheels on the shoulders, not tucked underneath the arms to form the bot's ribcage.


No I meant that with the Masterpiece version they went the extra step and made Red Alert cartoon accurate when they had the excuse of toy accuracy to hide behind if they wanted to cut corners and just re-use Sideswipe's shoulders. However if they're not even going too cut corners with something as minor as that then there's no way they're going to do something as radical as shoehorn Prowl into Jazz. What happened with Red Alert proves that it simply goes against the entire business plan whicch Takara currently have for the Masterpiece line.

mandingo_rex wrote:• Ultra Magnus (MP-02) was a total cop-out, and a huge "cutting corners" effort. So much in fact, that I didn't bother with MP-02. True, UM was originally a Prime repaint with a new suit-of-armor/trailer, but the end result looked nothing like Prime in robot mode once he was "suited up". While I do believe (well, really, really hope) that they'll make a new Ultra Magnus with trailer since they did completely retool Prime and not just scale him down (plus, this also milks the tooling for the main market, where not everyone will shell out the money for the Nemesis or "dark awakening" niche repaints), I feel like their efforts so far were just a cash grab. So I do consider that a cost-cutting, lazy cash grab. That's not Ultra Magnus.


Except that it's already been established that everything prior to MP-10 (you could possibly take MP-09 as that point even) is irrelevant to the current line. As of MP-10, we have a new scale and new approach so any shortcuts which may have previously been taken are almost certain to never see the light of day from this point on.

mandingo_rex wrote:Now, to jump to the other side, and argue FOR your stance, here's what is actually starting to sway my opinion, and it's nothing that's been said, really, but from the photos posted of the G1 cartoon models...

Jazz didn't have door-wings in the cartoon! And Prowl didn't have shoulder cannons! For Prowl, I think it could just be that they didn't include them in the promo shot, and we'll get them regardless with the figure. (Fingers crossed here, as I like the toy look versus the cartoon.) But it is cartoon-accurate. I think the MP version of Jazz will likely do their best to either hide the doors completely, or have them be able to be displayed with or without, so that little tidbit alone may require a significantly different transformation for Jazz, regardless of the leg transformation difference (which I personally think they have enough room to simply shift things around below the waist and still use a similar above-the-waist transformation for both Jazz and Prowl... but that's with my old thinking).


Considering how pedantic the attention to detail on this line has been to date, nothing in that reveal surprised me tbh and when Jazz comes out, I know I'll be proven right on that front too. As for the torso of MP Jazz when it does hit - the radical differece in waist engineering alone will requre a radically different mould, regardless of what happens with the doors.

In fact about the only parts which might see reuse would be Prowl's hands and thighs and even the thighs might be completely different sculpts.

mandingo_rex wrote:Stepper/Ricochet is also not a huge "repaint" draw from Jazz, I don't think. Sure, he can be repainted, but Stepper isn't anywhere in the realm of G1-must-have like Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen or the Seekers. If they do make Jazz, I fully expect to see Stepper, but not as an individual figure. He's more along the lines of Tigertracks or Sunstorm in terms of popularity, with the exception of Stepper actually having a vintage figure.


And yet he was popular enough to get a reissue. Here's the thing though- he requires very little in the way of custom tooling. Besides the mounts, everything is either Jazz or the inevitable Cyclonus Artfire release (whose partners all use the Nightstick mould). If a figure like Tigertrack is getting a release and if everyone is lapping up everything Masterpiece which at this rate they will be, then I can totally see Takara "risking" a Stepper release.
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