Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

mandingo_rex wrote:No need to start tossing in legal terminology or "debate team" lingo to try and boost your opinion. This isn't a court of law, and there's zero facts to base anything off from either side. There's no right and wrong at this point, it's all speculation! The difference about a courtroom and this is that in a court of law, you can disprove something. You can't disprove something that hasn't occurred yet, no matter how much you argue the case.

By Zero proof, you mean Mp-10, MP-11, MP-12, MP-13, MP-14, MP-15 and MP-16, which all follow the same design philosophy which you claim there is no proof that exists?

mandingo_rex wrote:Look, I don't care if Jazz gets all-new tooling and hours wasted on semi-redundant new engineering or "reuses" some engineering from the Datsun mold, or if anyone else agrees with me at this point. I'm just enjoying the discussion, as silly as it is. You and those on your "side" of this argument could very well be right and Jazz will share zero similarities with Prowl, but I don't expect that will happen. I actually don't even own the vintage version of Prowl, but I've messed with it once or twice but I do own Jazz, and when I transformed my friend's Prowl, I even recall being like "Oh, it's sorta like Jazz!" The Sunstreaker/Wheeljack example was probably just a bad example. It was a casual one based off first glances with little experience with either vintage toy, so I wouldn't spend too much time trying to deconstruct that example.

First off, my comment about not owning the toys was directed at First Aid whose entire argument was a straight up prima facie (I'm using that civil and impersonal term, because the "layman" version of it is generally personal and inflammatory - which I'm trying to avoid here).

Secondly, we've already seen the attention to detail remoulds get. If there were going to be lazy steps taken then Red Alert wouldn't have had specially tooled biceps. The fact that they would get that pedantic with the designs means that if something isn't true to the design then we wont see it in the MP version.

mandingo_rex wrote:Look, here are some things I do know, though, that folks keep bringing up from actual "fact" that isn't actually true, no matter how eloquently it's worded or how many debate-terms are tossed in to try and boost the argument. And I can say without a doubt, I know this from the Takara MP track record because I actually own every MP mold release to date...

• The point of the Masterpiece line is not to recreate the vintage toy with "masterpiece" articulation and design. It's to create a "masterpiece" version of the vintage figure AND the Sunbow cartoon appearance. The best of both worlds, literally. Sure, there are a few compromises, but they did a damn fine job finding the right middle ground for most of the MPs. As an example, Megatron is significantly different from his G1 toy, and while he had to follow the original's transformation somewhat, it achieves the visuals of the cartoon much more effectively than the original figure. Sideswipe's shoulders and wheels mimic the cartoon look, not the toy. True, the doors form the arms, but the wheels hide away completely.

Which contradicts nothing in what I actually said. Remember the Masterpiece line is essentially doing the original designs with current engineering levels and technology- staying true to the original designs. You bring up the doors being the amrs and the added complexity, but the fact is that added complexity is still built on the foundation of the original transformation.

You can be fairly certain that if a G1 cartoon design looked a certain way that it would be the "ideal" design of the figure by both Takara and Hasbro. Remember that Hasbro had to deal with engineering limitations from 30 years prior and a 1/72 scale line which was pre-existing with the original figures.

Working off the animation sheets and from the original design only proves the attention to detail being taken by the designers and that cost cutting has no place in it.

You might find some measures, like the fake wheels are going to be employed, but it is going to be where scale issues affect the design far more than it is to cut corners. Ultimately though, it all points towards a line where the focus is on high price ticket, high authenticity products.

mandingo_rex wrote:• I'm not sure that the thing you said about Sideswipe and Red Alert's shoulders made sense to me. Did you mean the vintage figures had different transformations? Because the new ones have new molds for the shoulders, they're not exactly radically different, I don't think. The transformation is the same, and Red Alert has fake wheels on them. That's about it. If the transformation happened the same as the vintage figure, the actual wheels would be visible on both, and would've been the actual wheels on the shoulders, not tucked underneath the arms to form the bot's ribcage.

No I meant that with the Masterpiece version they went the extra step and made Red Alert cartoon accurate when they had the excuse of toy accuracy to hide behind if they wanted to cut corners and just re-use Sideswipe's shoulders. However if they're not even going too cut corners with something as minor as that then there's no way they're going to do something as radical as shoehorn Prowl into Jazz. What happened with Red Alert proves that it simply goes against the entire business plan whicch Takara currently have for the Masterpiece line.

mandingo_rex wrote:• Ultra Magnus (MP-02) was a total cop-out, and a huge "cutting corners" effort. So much in fact, that I didn't bother with MP-02. True, UM was originally a Prime repaint with a new suit-of-armor/trailer, but the end result looked nothing like Prime in robot mode once he was "suited up". While I do believe (well, really, really hope) that they'll make a new Ultra Magnus with trailer since they did completely retool Prime and not just scale him down (plus, this also milks the tooling for the main market, where not everyone will shell out the money for the Nemesis or "dark awakening" niche repaints), I feel like their efforts so far were just a cash grab. So I do consider that a cost-cutting, lazy cash grab. That's not Ultra Magnus.

Except that it's already been established that everything prior to MP-10 (you could possibly take MP-09 as that point even) is irrelevant to the current line. As of MP-10, we have a new scale and new approach so any shortcuts which may have previously been taken are almost certain to never see the light of day from this point on.

mandingo_rex wrote:Now, to jump to the other side, and argue FOR your stance, here's what is actually starting to sway my opinion, and it's nothing that's been said, really, but from the photos posted of the G1 cartoon models...

Jazz didn't have door-wings in the cartoon! And Prowl didn't have shoulder cannons! For Prowl, I think it could just be that they didn't include them in the promo shot, and we'll get them regardless with the figure. (Fingers crossed here, as I like the toy look versus the cartoon.) But it is cartoon-accurate. I think the MP version of Jazz will likely do their best to either hide the doors completely, or have them be able to be displayed with or without, so that little tidbit alone may require a significantly different transformation for Jazz, regardless of the leg transformation difference (which I personally think they have enough room to simply shift things around below the waist and still use a similar above-the-waist transformation for both Jazz and Prowl... but that's with my old thinking).

Considering how pedantic the attention to detail on this line has been to date, nothing in that reveal surprised me tbh and when Jazz comes out, I know I'll be proven right on that front too. As for the torso of MP Jazz when it does hit - the radical differece in waist engineering alone will requre a radically different mould, regardless of what happens with the doors.

In fact about the only parts which might see reuse would be Prowl's hands and thighs and even the thighs might be completely different sculpts.

mandingo_rex wrote:Stepper/Ricochet is also not a huge "repaint" draw from Jazz, I don't think. Sure, he can be repainted, but Stepper isn't anywhere in the realm of G1-must-have like Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen or the Seekers. If they do make Jazz, I fully expect to see Stepper, but not as an individual figure. He's more along the lines of Tigertracks or Sunstorm in terms of popularity, with the exception of Stepper actually having a vintage figure.

And yet he was popular enough to get a reissue. Here's the thing though- he requires very little in the way of custom tooling. Besides the mounts, everything is either Jazz or the inevitable Cyclonus Artfire release (whose partners all use the Nightstick mould). If a figure like Tigertrack is getting a release and if everyone is lapping up everything Masterpiece which at this rate they will be, then I can totally see Takara "risking" a Stepper release.

Bowspearer wrote:

Henry921 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.

I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline. There will always be ways to redo Starscream, and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.

You've just completely contradicted yourself here. The entire point of the Masterpiece line has been to produce "masterpiece" versions of G1 toys. As such the retools and reissues will only extend as far as something was a retool and recolour in the original G1 line.

Will we get the likes of Tigertrack? Definitely, as we already are. However we wont see recolours or retools of G1 characters that were not originally retools or recolours.

Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated.

guess it's time to click the ol' "If you no longer wish to watch this topic..." link. =) cheers, all!

DinobotSix wrote:guess it's time to click the ol' "If you no longer wish to watch this topic..." link. =) cheers, all!

Right on, brother.

"Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "[i]the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated."[/i]

This is my point as well.

Bowspearer wrote:

First-Aid wrote:Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:

1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.

Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another.

Right so in other words, you don't own the figures and have no idea what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know that making claims of them being virtually identical and oversimplifying the transformational differences is sheer fallacy.

Actually I DO own both figures which I how I know how similar they are. Yes I am aware of the "extension" of Jazz's chest. But superficially, the figures physically appear very, very much the same. If you were the average Joe on the street and learned how to transform Prowl for the first time, you could easily assume just by looking at them that they could transform the same. I premise is that by simply changing the exterior of the MP Prowl version- the car parts so to speak, and by painting a couple parts differently, and keeping the base engineering nearly identical it is possible to reuse the Prowl mold for other figures besides the obvious straight repaints of Bluestreak and Smokescreen (and the inevitable SG equivalents).

First-Aid wrote:Actually I DO own both figures which I how I know how similar they are. Yes I am aware of the "extension" of Jazz's chest. But superficially, the figures physically appear very, very much the same.

Right so by your own admission, you have disregarded significant evidence and have instead proceeded to put forward a prima facie - an argument which superficially appears to work, but the moment you scratch the surface on it, it shows itself to be a pure fallacy.

First-Aid wrote:If you were the average Joe on the street and learned how to transform Prowl for the first time, you could easily assume just by looking at them that they could transform the same.

And if this were CHUG then your point here might have some grounding (bearing in mind that even in CHUG, Prowl and Jazz got separate moulds). However this is not CHUG - this is the Masterpiece line, where not only has there been a complete lack of shoehorning Sideswipe into Sunstreaker (and considering that Takara are releasing all of one mould at a time, if there was going to be one then it would have been released by now), but Red Alert has special biceps made just for his release.

If a line has that much attention to detail to it then such a superficial comparison is irrelevant to the design paradigm of the Masterpiece line.

First-Aid wrote:I premise is that by simply changing the exterior of the MP Prowl version- the car parts so to speak, and by painting a couple parts differently, and keeping the base engineering nearly identical it is possible to reuse the Prowl mold for other figures besides the obvious straight repaints of Bluestreak and Smokescreen (and the inevitable SG equivalents).

And if Takara went so far as to sculpt unique shoulders for a second tier character like Red Alert, then logically they're not about to take such a shoehorned approach to two of the most core G1 characters like Prowl and Jazz.

Takara Tomy designer Shogo Hasui continues to tease fans with a second Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl silhouette from a slightly different angle. According to the accompanying tweet the figure will be fully revealed in early March.

Site sponsors have this figure listed for a July release, with MP-18 Smokecreen and MP-19 Bluestreak repaints to follow in August and September.

Henry921 wrote:Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated.

The very nature of the MP line is to take G1 designs and makes them super detailed and as show-accurate as possible with modern engineering. The use of redeco-able molds is just a business strategy not inherently tied to the purpose of the MP line. That's a strategy that is used for far more than just the MPs.

The contradiction comes from saying, "I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline." By saying that they're as essential to MP line as the G1 line, that implies that both any molds that we redeoced and any molds that were new molds in G1 deserves the same treatment in MP form. Meaning that since Jazz was a different mold from Prowl in G1, he should have his own MP mold as well, which contradicts the claim that Jazz would work as a remold of MP Prowl.

That last paragraph made more sense in my head before I typed it, so I hope I worded it coherently enough.

Enough with the teasers already!

So, how does this new dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing differ from the first dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing?

You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

This has me very aroused.

<grumpy>

Before you pump out yet another Masterpiece, and choosing a mold that's been pretty much done in the Alternator line, you should consider rethinking the transformations.
My Seeker is flimsey, if you grab it by the waist the front of the body falls down, can't rotate the shoulders without shifting bigger parts etc.

tnx, Takara bye

</grumpy>

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:So, how does this new dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing differ from the first dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing?

This is from a different angle.

KnightStrike wrote:You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

That's the idea. They do this to keep us in suspense and get us excited. It's all just to build up hype.

If they showed it to us now, the big reveal to come later would be spoiled.

Ultra Markus wrote:one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

But this is Prowl.

Photoshoppers, anyone able to get more detail out of this one?

ENOUGH WITH THE REPAINTS!

Muscle Man wrote:ENOUGH WITH THE REPAINTS!

Er, this toy is a new mold.

My one and only complaint (it's minor) is that the ends of his doors don't curl up like they did in the show.

And I REALLY hope he doesn't have "POLICE" painted on his doors. Leave that to hasbro.

TimothyR wrote:My one and only complaint (it's minor) is that the ends of his doors don't curl up like they did in the show.

And I REALLY hope he doesn't have "POLICE" painted on his doors. Leave that to hasbro.

Even if the Takara G1 toy had them too?

noctorro wrote:<grumpy>

Before you pump out yet another Masterpiece, and choosing a mold that's been pretty much done in the Alternator line, you should consider rethinking the transformations.
My Seeker is flimsey, if you grab it by the waist the front of the body falls down, can't rotate the shoulders without shifting bigger parts etc.

tnx, Takara bye

</grumpy>

I understand your gripe and agree, but I think they did a pretty good job MP Sidesweipe, Convoy, and Soundwave. I have faith MP Prowl will have better articulation than the seekers.

KnightStrike wrote:You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

Sabrblade wrote:
That's the idea. They do this to keep us in suspense and get us excited. It's all just to build up hype.
If they showed it to us now, the big reveal to come later would be spoiled.

Point well taken, but this is Prowl(and more importantly for me the same mold as Bluestreak!) we are talking about! This much suspense just isn't right On a more serious note, Nissan owns the rights to all things Datsun and Nissan has expressed no issues with licensing to HasTak for TFs correct, or am I getting things confused again?

Come on... takara is definitely doing this on purpose! You can tell that this figure along with smokescreen and bluestreak are going to be awesome though. Can't wait to see what they actually look like.

I also hope that takara/hasbro keeps the same scale with the mp line. They probably will though i don't see why rescaling again would do any good. They probably did that with optimus because that was their first masterpiece ever and it was a test in a way.

But hopefully by 2015 most of the G1 roster will be out. I don't know though. That would be A LOT of mp figures in such little time. I just want to see everyone looking exactly how they looked in the show.

I wasn't alive when G1 started, but i bet anyone that was never thought years from then they'd have figures that look pretty much exactly the way they do in the show. The wonders of technology and the mind.

sdn1337 wrote:Come on... takara is definitely doing this on purpose! You can tell that this figure along with smokescreen and bluestreak are going to be awesome though. Can't wait to see what they actually look like.

I also hope that takara/hasbro keeps the same scale with the mp line. They probably will though i don't see why rescaling again would do any good. They probably did that with optimus because that was their first masterpiece ever and it was a test in a way.

But hopefully by 2015 most of the G1 roster will be out. I don't know though. That would be A LOT of mp figures in such little time. I just want to see everyone looking exactly how they looked in the show.

I wasn't alive when G1 started, but i bet anyone that was never thought years from then they'd have figures that look pretty much exactly the way they do in the show. The wonders of technology and the mind.

I am pretty sure if in 1984 someone had told me that one day I would get Transformers that looked just like they did in the cartoon and have oodles of articulation so you could do all kinds of awesome poses my kid brain would have exploded from sheer awesomeness

Sabrblade wrote:

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:So, how does this new dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing differ from the first dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing?

This is from a different angle.

KnightStrike wrote:You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

That's the idea. They do this to keep us in suspense and get us excited. It's all just to build up hype.

If they showed it to us now, the big reveal to come later would be spoiled.

Ultra Markus wrote:one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

But this is Prowl.

So, im not talking about Prowl