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The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

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The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby -Kanrabat- » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:04 pm

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Some hate TF Prime. Whatever, it's their opinion. Me, I find it's one of the best Transformers show ever. Why? Excelent animation and great art direction is a obvious start. Then, ALL the characters are lovable and memorable. The stories are good and often surprisignly unpredictable.

But there's one thing that make TF Prime stand out from all the other series.
THE :CON: AND VILAINS ARE ALLOWED TO WIN. AND OFTEN!

So many times, the bad guys just succeed in their plans and the story have to continue with that victory in mind for the next episode. Way too often in the oldest series, especially G!, the cons were about to brilliantly win but a plot device of some incredible stupidity made them lose at the end. So, the more you watched these old shows, the most you ask yourself "What's the point? The good guys will still prevail at the end, no matter what."

That many :CON: victories in TF Prime make the ending of each episodes truly unpredictable. When you are watching the show, I am genuinly on the edge of my seat, wondering if the forces of good will prevail or not. One more thing. No one is truly immortal. Some characters CAN die. Because you cannot tell in advance what will happen this is what make TF Prime a truly remarkable series.

What do you think?
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby Noideaforaname » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:49 pm

The BW Preds got a quite a few victories in, too. Granted quite a few of those were demanded by the plot (i.e. Maximals couldn't be rescued within a few episodes, and eventually they couldn't really use the Axalon near the end of the show, and stealing Sentinel was totally meaningless), though they did successfully steal several protoforms and kill both Optimuses... though both were eventually brought back.
And of course that Megatron went on to conquer Cybertron.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:14 am

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Noideaforaname wrote:The BW Preds got a quite a few victories in, too. Granted quite a few of those were demanded by the plot (i.e. Maximals couldn't be rescued within a few episodes, and eventually they couldn't really use the Axalon near the end of the show, and stealing Sentinel was totally meaningless), though they did successfully steal several protoforms and kill both Optimuses... though both were eventually brought back.
And of course that Megatron went on to conquer Cybertron.


That's also why Beast Wars is such a good show, appart the excellent writing and lovable characters. I was put off at first by the bad CG but I took the plunge and never regretted it.

I still like Prime better because, well, TRUK NUT MUNKEY! ;)
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby PrymeStriker » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:41 pm

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I like Prime because it is different. They make interesting characters and story plots, although some contradict their history in the books and games.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby TurboMMaster » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:16 pm

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In Armada Decepticons also won many battles, however, in Armada there is a lot of small battles about mirror victories. Also, this is so far propably the only series, where decepticons in the end remain with control of a half of Cybertron.

I like Transformers Prime because it is really fun thing to watching.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:56 pm

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I don't really see all that many victories for the villains. Most of them were just lead-ins to the next chapter or part of a larger ongoing story that typically ended with the Autobots winning.

Below is a list of winners from each episode's major conflict(s):

1 - Autobots beat up and sent the Vehicons running
2 - Autobots escaped the exploding energon mine, no victory for either side
3 - Ends on a neutral cliffhanger, no victory for either side
4 - Autobots rescue Fowler, escape the Nemesis, and deafea tthe Terrorcon army
5 - Autobots destroy the space bridge, w/ Megs caught in the blast
6 - Autobots and Fowler defeat Skyquake for good
7 - Autobots defeat the horde of Scraplets
8 - Wheeljack escapes the Nemesis and kills Makeshift
9 - Autobots keep the Dingus safe from MECH, beat some Vehicons, and save the kids
10 - Autobots destroy the Energon Harvester and beat the Cons
11 - Autobots beat the Cons and Jack makes good with Vince (for now)
12 - Arcee saves Jack from Airachnid, but she flees, no victory for either side
13 - Autobots save the dying Optimus, Megatron escapes his unconscious body
14 - Megatron uses Bumblebee to revive himself
15 - Starscream loses to the Autobots, who also save the kids form the Shadowzone
16 - Autobots rescue Breakdown from MECH, who are also beaten
17 - Arcee and Fowler save Jack and June from Airachnid and MECH
18 - Autobots get the Polarity Gauntlet by beating Breakdown and Airachnid
19 - Autobots and kids free themselves from the cave
20 - Autobots get the Immobilizer and beat Airachnid, Arcee doesn't kill Starscream (not a loss, just mercy)
21 - Bulkhead's mind is restored, both sides lose the data cylinder info
22 - Ratchet is beaten but has his sense knocked back into him, no real victory for either side
23 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory for either side
24 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory for either side
25 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory for either side
26 - Unicron is put back to sleep, victory for both sides
27 - Optimus, as Orion Pax, becomes a Decepticon
28 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory for either side
29 - Optimus Prime returns, beats Megatron, and goes back to the Autobots
30 - MECH acquires Bumblebee's T-Cog
31 - Bumblebee takes back his T-Cog, Cons get the Forge, MECH takes Starscream's T-Cog
32 - Autobots save Bulkhead from Dreadwing
33 - Airachnid kills Breakdown, but her Insecticon is killed by Megatron
34 - MECH's Nemesis Prime is defeated, Silas is mortally wounded
35 - Clip show, no victory for either side (unelss you count the Autobots regaining the trust of the U.S. government)
36 - Starscream clones are killed, Cons gain Insecticons, Airachnid is frozen, Bulkhead downs the Nemesis
37 - The Nemesis is relaunched, the kids defeat the Nemesis
38 - Autobots and kids beat Knock Out and gain the Phase Shifter
39 - Starscream gets the Apex Armor but loses the fight
40 - Soundwave beats Wheeljack and gets the Resonance Blaster, Ratchet implants a virus into Laserbeak
41 - Bulkhead destroys the Tox-En, but is rendered comatose by it and Hardshell
42 - Miko kills Hardshell, Wheeljack destroys many Insecticons
43 - Flashback, no victory for either side (though, Autobots win in the flashback)
44 - Smokescreen gets the Apex Armor, Starscream gets Red Energon
45 - MECH is all killed, Damocles is destroyed, Cylas is left to his fate
46 - Autobots get the Star Saber
47 - Decepticons make the Dark Star Saber and broke the Star Saber, Smokescreen got the first Onega Key
48 - Cons get second key, Starscream gets third key, Cons kidnap Smokescreen
49 - Smokescreen escapes with two keys, Starscream steals all three keys
50 - Cons get all four keys
51 - Autobots get the Forge and beat the Cons to the Omega lock, Megatron kidnaps the kids

So, really, it's only been about 16/51 episodes so far that have had the bad guys ultimately claiming the upper hand in the main conflict(s) in some form by the episode's conclusion.
Last edited by Sabrblade on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby TulioDude » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:25 pm

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Like it was said before,Beast Wars and Armada had victories for the bad guys.
The whole backstory and some episodes of Beast Machines where abou Megatron having the upper hand.
RiD had some important victories for the Predacons too.(Autobot Protoforms,Fortress Maximus and etc..)

I havent wachted the Cybertron series yet,but i'm pretty sure there some victories there too. >:oP
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby SlyTF1 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:28 pm

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What are you talking about? The Decepticons NEVER win in this show. Season one pissed me off because the Autobots won every episode. Season 2 was like that at first too, but the later episodes have been alright. The Decepticons were winning for most of the entire series in Animated...
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:27 am

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SlyTF1 wrote:The Decepticons were winning for most of the entire series in Animated...
This is just as big a claim I can break down as well.

1 - Autobots stop Megatron from stealing the AllSpark
2 - Autobots destroy the giant nanotech monster
3 - Autobots defeat Starscream and kepp the AllSpark safe from him
4 - Autobots thwart Megatron's attack on their base
5 - Autobots deafeat Meltdown
6 - Autobots thwart Megatron's plan to use the Dinobots against them
7 - Autobots defeat Lockdown and send him packing
8 - Autobots stop Nanosec from delivering the Destronium to Megatron
9 - Autobots defeat Blackarachnia and get the Key back from her
10 - Bulkhead defeats Soundwave, foiling Megatron's scheme with him
11 - Autobots defeat Lugnut and Blitzwing, keeping the AllSpark safe
12 - Autobots, Sari, and Fanzone thwart Meltdown's plans with the Dinobots
13 - Autobots get Bulkhead's body back from the Headmaster, but he flees having lost, but they save the city from a nuclear crisis
14 - Autobots destroy the Space Barnacles
15 - Decepticons revitalize Megatron
16 - Optimus defeats Megatron and disperse the AllSpark
17 - Autobots convince the Elite Guard of their story and stop the rampaging police bots
18 - Optimus saves Sentinel's body from the Headmaster, who also avoids arrest
19 - Autobots convince the Elite Guard of the Decepticon threat on Earth and capture Starscream
20 - Ratchet gets Wreck-Gar to be a hero and saves the city
21 - Autobots and Sari stop Master Disaster, get his AllSpark fragment, and beat Blitzwing
22 - Constructicons go on their own, no victory is won for either side
23 - Starscream tricks all sides with his clones, but the Autobots prevent them from destroying the city
24 - Swindle is bested by BB, Sari, and SUV; the latter of whom are also sent to jail
25 - Wasp fails to reach the space bridge, but evades recapture, and no victory is won by any Earth-based faction
26 - Meltdown is defeated, while Blackarachnia flees after her own plan is foiled
27 - Sari outsmarts the Constructicons
28 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory is won in this episode
29 - The space bridge is destroyed, and several characters from both sides are lost into the portal
30 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory is won for either side
31 - Optimus beats the Headmaster for good, Sari destroys the Rock Lord, then cliffhanger
32 - Sari is stopped by the Bots, and the Con-controlled Omega Supreme is outsmarted and teleported away
33 - Dirt Boss's plan is defeated and blows up on Dinobot Island, but Lugnut gets away thanks to Ramjet
34 - Wasp's plan is thwarted, but he flees after his loss
35 - Several Decepticons are captured, but Lockdown flees from capture
36 - Blackarachnia and Waspinator are blown to an "Unknown Locale"
37 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory is won for either side
38 - Autobots are freed from Soundwave's control, and Optimus crushes him (though, Laserbeak takes his final component away and is never heard from again)
39 - All the captured Cons are recaptured and sent to prison on Cybertron, except for the missing Lugnut
40 - Ratchet, Fanzone, and Jazz keep the Magnus Hammer and Ultra Magnus safe from Shockwave, but he escapes with Arcee
41 - Episode ends on a cliffhanger, no victory is won for either side
42 - Megatron and his cronies are defeated and captured, Starscream dies, the AllSpark is reconstituted, Prowl sacrifces himself and saves Optimus, and the Supreme clones are destroyed

In this series, enemy victories rank about 9 out of 42 episodes.

A retreat is not a victory if it's the only option one has left after their original plan was thwarted.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby TurboMMaster » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:54 am

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Weapon: Cyclone Gun
For the first time i heard about Cons in Aniamted wining anything. They are heavily outguned and outnumbered, they must hide for milennia and they until series finale can't be a real threat even for a single human City.
Sabrblade wrote:1 - Autobots beat up and sent the Vehicons running
Ju have a memory problems, Autobots in first episode loses Cliffjumper, and they can't even injury 2 Vehicons, witch survived and retreated only because enter of the Bulkhead.
Sabrblade wrote:10 - Autobots destroy the Energon Harvester and beat the Cons
2 new Decepticons come into Earth and they both survived. Also the succesfully steal Energon Harvester.
Sabrblade wrote:18 - Autobots get the Polarity Gauntlet by beating Breakdown and Airachnid
Decepticons forced Airanchid to rejoin into their cause.
20 - Autobots get the Immobilizer and beat Airachnid, Arcee doesn't kill Starscream (not a loss, just mercy)
The weak part of this argument is... Starscream won a fight, he was in far better condition than Arcee at the end.

Also Megatron beaten Optimus so far three time (in Darkness, Rising, seazon 1 finale and in Hard Knocks) While Optimus so far was superior only in Orion Pax part 3. And Decepticons have a huge tactical adventage, they have a Warship, an entire army of soldiers, they can summon new tropes more easily, and they always have enough of energon. Autobots must hide on tiny base using a human technology based hardware, must fight for each scrap of energon and until Prime improve a Ground Bridge into Space Brigde, seems to be separated from other of their kind.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:15 am

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TurboMMaster wrote:For the first time i heard about Cons in Aniamted wining anything. They are heavily outguned and outnumbered, they must hide for milennia and they until series finale can't be a real threat even for a single human City.
Nearly every Decepticon in that series was walking juggernaut who was too much for just one Autobot to take down. In the third episode alone, All five Autobots just barely took down Starscream by himself, with Optimus having to sacrifice his own life just to beat him.

TurboMMaster wrote:Ju have a memory problems, Autobots in first episode loses Cliffjumper,
Cliffjumper's death wasn't part of the main conflict of the episode, which was the Vehicons trying kill Arcee and Jack. His death was a plot device not the Cons main agenda of the episode.

TurboMMaster wrote:and they can't even injury 2 Vehicons, witch survived and retreated only because enter of the Bulkhead.
I did say they sent the Vehicons running. ;)

TurboMMaster wrote:2 new Decepticons come into Earth and they both survived.
Not a victory, but a shift in the status quo

TurboMMaster wrote:Also the succesfully steal Energon Harvester.
Which they lose after Bulkhead destroys it, thus making it a hollow victory if anything.

TurboMMaster wrote:Decepticons forced Airanchid to rejoin into their cause.
You call that a victory? Returning a two-faced deserter back into their ranks? She never wanted back in, and they weren't crying for her return either. It was just another status quo change.

TurboMMaster wrote:The weak part of this argument is... Starscream won a fight, he was in far better condition than Arcee at the end.
Starscream didn't really have a set goal of his own for this episode. His leaving was no win or loss for himself or anyone. He was not missed by the Cons nor did he miss them. It was another neutral shift.

TurboMMaster wrote:Also Megatron beaten Optimus so far three time (in Darkness, Rising, seazon 1 finale and in Hard Knocks) While Optimus so far was superior only in Orion Pax part 3.
You have to keep in mind what the true objective of each episode's conflict is. Megatron may have bested Optimus in the space bridge fight, but his goal was to bring the Terrorcon army through the portal to Earth, which was foiled and so he lost. It's the main objectives that matter the most.

TurboMMaster wrote:And Decepticons have a huge tactical adventage, they have a Warship, an entire army of soldiers, they can summon new tropes more easily, and they always have enough of energon. Autobots must hide on tiny base using a human technology based hardware, must fight for each scrap of energon and until Prime improve a Ground Bridge into Space Brigde, seems to be separated from other of their kind.
Nevertheless, despite their consistent tactical disadvantage, the Autobots have had more wins than losses for each episode's main conflict. The Decepticons main have more resources, but the Autobots tend to have better strategies, teamwork, and wit, which help in plenty of their victories.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby TurboMMaster » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:51 am

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Nearly every Decepticon in that series was walking juggernaut who was too much for just one Autobot to take down. In the third episode alone, All five Autobots just barely took down Starscream by himself, with Optimus having to sacrifice his own life just to beat him.
Actually, Bulkhead at his best was able to defat both Lugnut and Shockwave, so he is strong enough. Optimus beats Megatron in their final fight(with is far more logical than for example final fight in Cybertron and DotM). And most of all- Decepticons are a small group of outcasts hiding from justie, while Autobots are a big organization controling a entire Planet. Also Autobots have a lot of stuff such like a Space Bridge technologu, Ultra Magnus Hammmer, or acces to heavy bitters- such like Omega Supreme.
Sabrblade wrote:Cliffjumper's death wasn't part of the main conflict of the episode, which was the Vehicons trying kill Arcee and Jack. His death was a plot device not the Cons main agenda of the episode.
You think that meanigless skirmish is more important than a lost of a teammate? Autobots lost this episode at the beggining, mostly because they failed in protect one of them, anything what happened later in this episode simply a effect of this disaster.

Sabrblade wrote:Nevertheless, despite their consistent tactical disadvantage, the Autobots have had more wins than losses for each episode's main conflict. The Decepticons main have more resources, but the Autobots tend to have better strategies, teamwork, and wit, which help in plenty of their victories.
However, Autobots still aren't really able to beacome a threat at least until they gained almost all Iacon relics. And also, most of the time Autobots victories are simply return to status quo, without makin their situation any better. Decepticons can't won too ofen, mostly because it they did, something is gona change almost for sure.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby PrymeStriker » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:48 am

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TurboMMaster wrote:You think that meanigless skirmish is more important than a lost of a teammate? Autobots lost this episode at the beggining, mostly because they failed in protect one of them, anything what happened later in this episode simply a effect of this disaster.


You're not reading his post, are you?

Cliffjumper's death wasn't the main "problem" of the episode. It happened in the first two to five minutes, the Autobots cry, and that was it.

The rest of the episode was Starscream wanting to capture and kill Arcee as well, so he sent out two twin Vehicons to grab her. Arcee got back up and sent the Vehicons running. The Autobots won...but ended up with three humans involved. This would transition into the next episode.

However, Autobots still aren't really able to beacome a threat at least until they gained almost all Iacon relics.


You do know that the Omega Keys were the last of the Iacon relics, right? The Autobots have the Forge, Star Saber, Phase Shifter, Apex Armor, and (for now) all four Omega Keys. They also have the Immobilizer and polarity gauntlet, and they had the Spark Extractor.

The Decepticons have the Resonance Blaster and a forged Dark Star Saber. That's it.

We have the season finale ahead in which the Decepticons just might get the four keys back. Regardless, the Autobots have the most relics as of Episode 51.
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Re: The main thing that make TF Prime stand out: The bad guys are allowed to win. And often.

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:41 am

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TurboMMaster wrote:Actually, Bulkhead at his best was able to defat both Lugnut and Shockwave, so he is strong enough. Optimus beats Megatron in their final fight(with is far more logical than for example final fight in Cybertron and DotM).
And those wins happened later in the series after the Autobots had already fought these guys before and had gotten stronger since. But every time they fought a Cybertron-born Decepticon the first time, the Autobots could barely stand up to them.

TurboMMaster wrote:And most of all- Decepticons are a small group of outcasts hiding from justie, while Autobots are a big organization controling a entire Planet.
We see a whole lot of Decepticons on New Kaon during Megatron's funeral (when he was presumed dead in season 1). Not to mention the might that is Team Chaar who mopped the floor with Team Athenia. Though the Autobots may outnumber them, the Animated Decepticons were anything but incapable.

TurboMMaster wrote:Also Autobots have a lot of stuff such like a Space Bridge technologu,
Which the Earth-bound ones had to spend an entire season building themselves, since the Cybertron-based ones were pretty much useless to them for the most part, what with them being on Earth instead of Cybertron and all.

TurboMMaster wrote:Ultra Magnus Hammmer,
Which didn't get any real good use for the Earht Autobots until the season 3 finale.

TurboMMaster wrote:or acces to heavy bitters- such like Omega Supreme.
Who was offline for most of seasons 1-2, and lost to Megatron for most of season 3.

TurboMMaster wrote:You think that meanigless skirmish is more important than a lost of a teammate?
The episode itself sure seems to think so, since it spent a good majority of itself focusing on Arcee trying to escape the Vehicons, while only spending a mere five minutes on Cliffjumper's death. They killed off Cliffjumper before we even got a chance to care about him.

TurboMMaster wrote:Autobots lost this episode at the beggining, mostly because they failed in protect one of them, anything what happened later in this episode simply a effect of this disaster.
In that case, one might as well just shut off the episode right after Cliff dies, since , according to you, the rest of the whole episode is entirely pointless. :roll:

TurboMMaster wrote:However, Autobots still aren't really able to beacome a threat at least until they gained almost all Iacon relics. And also, most of the time Autobots victories are simply return to status quo, without makin their situation any better. Decepticons can't won too ofen, mostly because it they did, something is gona change almost for sure.
And that's the fault of the writers, not the characters themselves.

Well, I guess you could blame the Decepticons for their army consisting almost entirely of fragile Stormtroopers that couldn't win a battle to save their lives after "Darkness Rising".


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PrymeStriker wrote:You're not reading his post, are you?

Cliffjumper's death wasn't the main "problem" of the episode. It happened in the first two to five minutes, the Autobots cry, and that was it.

The rest of the episode was Starscream wanting to capture and kill Arcee as well, so he sent out two twin Vehicons to grab her. Arcee got back up and sent the Vehicons running. The Autobots won...but ended up with three humans involved. This would transition into the next episode.
Yes, thank you.
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #106 - McCarthyism
Twincast / Podcast #106:
"McCarthyism"
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Posted: Thursday, December 4th, 2014