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Alec wrote:

Cthulhunicron wrote:

blades180 wrote: Please give me an example from the movies where an evil character changes his ways and is forgiven.

Wheelie from ROTF but I don't really think that counts lol

Jetfire probably should though.

If Jetfire hadn't killed himself, Prime would probably have ripped his face off.

...Why?

Uh... Because all those millions of years ago when the war started, Jetfire led a bombing raid that killed Op's beloved cyberdog. And Optimus Prime never forgets, and he never forgives.

Yeah. That's right.

Maybe we're searching in the wrong moral direction? We (as fans) look in to the cybertronian reasoning. We can't really say anything about that. Prime sure seems to be bent on Cybertron and it's inhabitants not surviving for the reasons stated above. He seems focused on protecting the current planet, right?
From that point of view, maybe we can say he's just scared for a repeat of what happened to Cybertron? I mean, who knows what happened exactly before the movies? Yes, we had comics, but the can only go so far as the movies allow them to. Lots of stuff from the comics got ditched after ROTF and DOTM.

Maybe the deal in all three movies is not so much Cybertronian hope, but more a human hope.

the autobots are an impossible ideal for humanity, the decepticons are the grim reality !

Optimus stands for the ethics we hope to achieve as a race.

I think I just made up a saying.

'War is fought in shades of gray.'

Tekka wrote:Yeah. That's right.

Right!

One scene in DOTM spoke to me: When Carly faced Megatron.

Megatron could have easily figured out the "tiny flesh creature" was trying to mess with his brain to get him to fight Sentinel so they'd destroy each other, but greed and his obsession with power and control made him gullible and susceptible to being convinced to do anything to stop something from taking power from him. If he had just dismissed Carly, Optimus Prime could've been killed at the hands of Sentinel Prime, and Megatron would've saved his own life.

It just shows how warped you can become when you embrace greed. I think it's very true that it can consume your brain.

I believe someone touched upon this already, but it's something I just realized. Optimus Prime isn't just a fictional robot who changes into a truck. He is what many humans wish our race was. And he's never changed in over 25 years. He is the opposite of the humans in Avatar: he lands on a new planet and dedicates his life to defending the planet he barely knows. "But Prime has changed...badly. These horrid corrupted movies show him as a ruthless killer." Here's where the Decepticons come in. They're a symbol of all of humanity's imperfections: greed, hunger for power, betrayal and deceit, selfishness, dishonesty, ruthlessness, cowardice, control. The Autobots, by killing the Decepticons, are symbolically eradicating those imperfections and triumphing with the good elements. It's quite interesting.

OptiMagnus wrote:One scene in DOTM spoke to me: When Carly faced Megatron.

Megatron could have easily figured out the "tiny flesh creature" was trying to mess with his brain to get him to fight Sentinel so they'd destroy each other, but greed and his obsession with power and control made him gullible and susceptible to being convinced to do anything to stop something from taking power from him. If he had just dismissed Carly, Optimus Prime could've been killed at the hands of Sentinel Prime, and Megatron would've saved his own life.

It just shows how warped you can become when you embrace greed. I think it's very true that it can consume your brain.

I believe someone touched upon this already, but it's something I just realized. Optimus Prime isn't just a fictional robot who changes into a truck. He is what many humans wish our race was. And he's never changed in over 25 years. He is the opposite of the humans in Avatar: he lands on a new planet and dedicates his life to defending the planet he barely knows. "But Prime has changed...badly. These horrid corrupted movies show him as a ruthless killer." Here's where the Decepticons come in. They're a symbol of all of humanity's imperfections: greed, hunger for power, betrayal and deceit, selfishness, dishonesty, ruthlessness, cowardice, control. The Autobots, by killing the Decepticons, are symbolically eradicating those imperfections and triumphing with the good elements. It's quite interesting

Except not. it was to show that Megatron had been being played, humiliated and defeated over and over throughout the war and that he was finally realizing that he has been constantly used by Sentinel and the Fallen and was no longer the leader he once was.
You know, it was to lead up to the truce that was screwed the hell up in the last two minutes, making Megatron's arc pointless. Yay, DOTM ending -__-.

You're putting Optimus on a pedestal he did not earn. Cowardice is attacking those from behind, those unprepared, those offering truces, those defenseless and begging for mercy, all of which Optimus has done throughout DOTM. Optimus showed that he had lacked the ability to not be the "primitive and violent race" that Ironhide had called the humans. Optimus never grew up.
A true hero would have talked to Megatron like he did in the novel and comic and found a way to end the war and let Megatron save his home. Megatron was violent and ruthless, but DOTM showed that all he truly wanted was to save his planet, not to dominate the world. Did Megatron say "Finally, I will rule this world!" when he saw Cybertron? No, he said "Finally, my planet is saved". He was looking out for Cybertron primarily, while Optimus had just forsaken his planet, making the war and all the deaths from the war sort of pointless.

Cheesinator wrote:Decepticons are the aggressors, sure. From the human perspective, they definitely deserved to be wiped out.

it's not that simple when you consider our history.

the romans, the spanish,the british alexander the great are aggressors who are viewed as bringing culture to barbarians, pagans and savages. on the other hand the persians are trying to do the same yet history deems them to be bullies trying to subjugate the greeks.

Megatron had been Prime's mortal enemy for millennia, literally stabbing him in the back in the previous movie and leading a war of aggression which had razed Cybertron and brought their species to the brink of extinction. He'd been Prime's mortal enemy for thousands of years up until basically betraying Sentinel in those last few moments to save his own hide.

And people are still angry about Optimus killing him?! Good *Bleep*ing lord, people! Prime would've been a damned fool to trust him!

in metal wolf chaos, US vice president richard hawk did much damage to US president michael wilson and in the end michael still gave richard one last helping hand. in case you're wondering the crimes...

a. successfully staged a coup d'etat
b. gassed chicago
c. unleashed a giant spider robot on new york
d. tried to blow up the statue of liberty
e. pinned the blame on b, c, d on michael
f. he enacts a law that calls for the immediate public execution (by guillotine) of any wilson sympathizers who don't confess by a previously set timeline. Along with their family members within four separations. And their old classmates. AND their friends and coworkers.


and this is the reason for the 'easily forgiven' scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o50EL5IEpiE


so even though it's unrealistic for prime to do the same to megatron, it's still quite possible

I'd like to remind everyone again that it was Optimus who ejected the AllSpark and brought the species on the brink of extinction. Apparently the Autobots are just too stupid to realize this.

Starscream GaGa wrote:Apparently the Autobots are just too stupid to realize this.

in the movies i think all the transformers weather it be bots or cons were portrayed as stupid at some time or another IMHO.

Starscream GaGa wrote:I'd like to remind everyone again that it was Optimus who ejected the AllSpark and brought the species on the brink of extinction. Apparently the Autobots are just too stupid to realize this.

And i'd like to remind you that it was Megatron who..

- in the first movie, through around helpless humans trying to get to the All Spark
- in ROTF, told Sam he was going to Kill him, slowly, Painfully,
- Stabbed Optimus in the back, killing him.
- Assisted in re-activating the sun harvester to destroy Earth's sun, which would have killed all of man kind.
-Atempted multiple times to kill Sam (and almost succeded in ROTF)
-had a plan with a defecting Autobot to take earth's resources and use human slave labor to rebuild
-He kills Sentinel, not because he had a change in heart about what he was doing, but because he wanted to relingquish command back to himself. He even said as he killed Sentinel..
"This is my planet! You will never lead!"
He then turns to Optimus and asks for a truce but under one condition..
"All i want is to keep my command"
After all this.. you still think that his truce was sencere?? Sorry, but a truce would have just lead to another betrayal once Megs was strong enough again. which leads me to another point...
One of the reasons Megs wanted a truce was he knew he was not strong enough to fight in battle. The only reason he "saved" Optimus was because the remaining autobots would have never sided with him and done what they needed to stop him and the rest of the decepticons. Also, he needed optimus so the rest of the Autobots would go along with it.

As far as O.P. behavior, he was done. NO more Mr. Nice guy. He tried that in the first ovie and look were it got him. His ass handed to him in hand to hand combat.
Being a true leader means doing things that are in the best interest of your party. He fought for freedom and liberty. And with a decepticon invasion where they were killing inocent humans, death was the only solution. Being a leader is making those tough decisions. And sometimes those decisions aren't going to be the popular, or preffered ones.

Megatron is supposed to be the villain. What I'm saying is that Optimus blurred that line when he decided to murder a non-aggressive Megatron who was offering a truce.
This wasn't a proper moral dilemma, it was just there for the special effects and it sucked.

Starscream GaGa wrote:Megatron is supposed to be the villain. What I'm saying is that Optimus blurred that line when he decided to murder a non-aggressive Megatron who was offering a truce.

And if you think death is the only solution to any problem, there is serious morality issues going on.

Name one time where violence isn't the answer.

SlyTF1 wrote:Name one time where violence isn't the answer.

What? You mean... Like a truce?

SlyTF1 wrote:Name one time where violence isn't the answer.

Seriously, GTFO. I've read your posts as you talk about morals - shoehorning bloated scenes into glass slippers. And then you **** out the implication of violence as an initiative opposed to a last resort? Apropos, as this is the underlying moral of the live action Transformers trilogy. I can't fully express how unfortunate the mindset of endless violence is, especially when directed at our youth. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings? Talk about Shattered Glass.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:Name one time where violence isn't the answer.

What? You mean... Like a truce?

I don't agree with Sly on this, at all.

That being said, it wasn't a real truce. Megatron offered a truce with this important note: He'd be leader of them all. On this planet.

That's not a truce, that's a violent dictatorship that could take over the world.

I don't understand why you can't get that. I really don't.

Autobot032 wrote:I don't agree with Sly on this, at all.

That being said, it wasn't a real truce. Megatron offered a truce with this important note: He'd be leader of them all. On this planet.

That's not a truce, that's a violent dictatorship that could take over the world.

I don't understand why you can't get that. I really don't.

You HAVE to use the novel as evidence of this, seeing as it really feels like random lines were cut and pasted all over that scene. In the novel the truce was real, this is as much evidence that it was real as was present int he movie suggesting it wasn't. Besides, he said he wanted to keep his command, whose to say he wasn't talking about a joint dictatorship?

Starscream GaGa wrote: Megatron is supposed to be the villain..

He was. Maybe not the main villian, but a villian nothing less.

Starscream GaGa wrote:What I'm saying is that Optimus blurred that line when he decided to murder a non-aggressive Megatron who was offering a truce.

So basicly, just ignore everthing he's done in the past because he extended his hand for a truce that would have kept him in command. You honestly going to tell me and others, that everything he's done in the past should just be up and ignored and he should be trusted? Based on what? What reason does anyone have to trust him after he willfully was ready to watch the destruction and slavery of earth?

Starscream GaGa wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:I don't agree with Sly on this, at all.

That being said, it wasn't a real truce. Megatron offered a truce with this important note: He'd be leader of them all. On this planet.

That's not a truce, that's a violent dictatorship that could take over the world.

I don't understand why you can't get that. I really don't.

You HAVE to use the novel as evidence of this, seeing as it really feels like random lines were cut and pasted all over that scene. In the novel the truce was real, this is as much evidence that it was real as was present int he movie suggesting it wasn't. Besides, he said he wanted to keep his command, whose to say he wasn't talking about a joint dictatorship?

Well this is the movie. Not the novel. So we really don't have to use it as evedience. But even if it was 100% real in Megatrons mind, and he truely was being sensere, again, your telling me everything he's done in the past shold just be ignored, they shold shake hands and everything will be hunky doory??

SlyTF1 wrote:

Starscream GaGa wrote:Megatron is supposed to be the villain. What I'm saying is that Optimus blurred that line when he decided to murder a non-aggressive Megatron who was offering a truce.

And if you think death is the only solution to any problem, there is serious morality issues going on.

Name one time where violence isn't the answer.

That statement drips so much ignorance it forms a pool below...

The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's. hell, any *BLEEP*ing time you have a disagreement with a friend.

Moving on...

Prime had no reason to trust Megatron after seeing him betray and shoot his own partner in the back. Again. No. Reason.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Starscream GaGa wrote:Megatron is supposed to be the villain. What I'm saying is that Optimus blurred that line when he decided to murder a non-aggressive Megatron who was offering a truce.

And if you think death is the only solution to any problem, there is serious morality issues going on.

Name one time where violence isn't the answer.

That statement drips so much ignorance it forms a pool below...

The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's. hell, any *BLEEP*ing time you have a disagreement with a friend.

Moving on...

Prime had no reason to trust Megatron after seeing him betray and shoot his own partner in the back. Again. No. Reason.

just ignore sly at times like that, its hard to knwo if he is winding up or just immature and stupid

Starscream GaGa wrote:You're putting Optimus on a pedestal he did not earn. Cowardice is attacking those from behind, those unprepared, those offering truces, those defenseless and begging for mercy, all of which Optimus has done throughout DOTM. Optimus showed that he had lacked the ability to not be the "primitive and violent race" that Ironhide had called the humans. Optimus never grew up.
A true hero would have talked to Megatron like he did in the novel and comic and found a way to end the war and let Megatron save his home. Megatron was violent and ruthless, but DOTM showed that all he truly wanted was to save his planet, not to dominate the world. Did Megatron say "Finally, I will rule this world!" when he saw Cybertron? No, he said "Finally, my planet is saved". He was looking out for Cybertron primarily, while Optimus had just forsaken his planet, making the war and all the deaths from the war sort of pointless.

So, you are dismissing everything that Megatron did throughout movies 1-3 up to the offering of the truce, where you also dismiss that he wishes to keep his command. So you are saying Optimus Prime should drop his weapons and trust Megatron this ONE time, help Megatron to his feet, and then as he turns around he risks getting shot in the back? Hell, Megatron would've kept Optimus as a caged pet if he rebuilt Cybertron. And how does he not see Sentinel as a threat to command when Sentinel even said that Cybertron would be his to rule? Yes, Megatron wanted to save Cybertron, but he kept in mind himself as its ruler. Plus, he wished to use human slave labor to help rebuild it. Let's say in the future humans discover a planet of intelligent but more primitive beings, and develop technology to travel there regularly. Then, Earth's military superpowers start a war over possession of large country that results in Earth's end. Then, the side that sparked the war decides to use the species of the other planet as slaves. Is that justifiable? The Autobots just landed on Earth and decided to accept it as home. They could have easily taken advantage of the humans and killed them all to have Earth to themselves.
You also dismiss Optimus's response to Ironhide's comment about the humans: "Are we so different?". He obviously recognizes the imperfections of their race, that they can't think of themselves too highly. Doesn't same even say to Optimus in DOTM something like: "Now you know what it's like to be human," which was after Optimus revived the evil Sentinel and blamed himself for the problems at hand, even though he couldn't have predicted the outcome of his actions.

OptiMagnus wrote:So, you are dismissing everything that Megatron did throughout movies 1-3 up to the offering of the truce, where you also dismiss that he wishes to keep his command. So you are saying Optimus Prime should drop his weapons and trust Megatron this ONE time, help Megatron to his feet, and then as he turns around he risks getting shot in the back? Hell, Megatron would've kept Optimus as a caged pet if he rebuilt Cybertron. And how does he not see Sentinel as a threat to command when Sentinel even said that Cybertron would be his to rule? Yes, Megatron wanted to save Cybertron, but he kept in mind himself as its ruler. Plus, he wished to use human slave labor to help rebuild it. Let's say in the future humans discover a planet of intelligent but more primitive beings, and develop technology to travel there regularly. Then, Earth's military superpowers start a war over possession of large country that results in Earth's end. Then, the side that sparked the war decides to use the species of the other planet as slaves. Is that justifiable? The Autobots just landed on Earth and decided to accept it as home. They could have easily taken advantage of the humans and killed them all to have Earth to themselves.

OK. Let's be friggin' honest here. In a real-life situation Optimus would have no followers. Regardless of who sparked the war, everyone would've turned coat the moment Optimus ejected the species SOURCE OF LIFE from the planet. It's like if a country's leader decided that, in order to stop an evil dictator from taking command, decided to sterilize every human being on the planet and then create a haze to destroy the environment as well.

If Earth was destroyed and we did find a planet of sentient, smaller life-forms we totally would use them as slaves to rebuild our planet. All you have to do is look at mankind's history to know that's a fact.

But, alas, Optimus does have followers in the movie, just to drive home this is a fantasy setting. It's fictional. Optimus damn well could've forgiven Megatron and it would've been just as realistic or unrealistic as every other scene in the movie.

Starscream GaGa wrote: OK. Let's be friggin' honest here. In a real-life situation Optimus would have no followers. Regardless of who sparked the war, everyone would've turned coat the moment Optimus ejected the species SOURCE OF LIFE from the planet. It's like if a country's leader decided that, in order to stop an evil dictator from taking command, decided to sterilize every human being on the planet and then create a haze to destroy the environment as well...

Wow. All of the counter points made to your auguments and this is all you could come up with as a response?
And at this point its not whats realistic, or unrealistic. Its about the desecion that was made based on the situation at hand. But you know what, i'll play along.

Starscream GaGa wrote:If Earth was destroyed and we did find a planet of sentient, smaller life-forms we totally would use them as slaves to rebuild our planet. All you have to do is look at mankind's history to know that's a fact..

And we also learn from our mistakes. Ever heeard of a little thing called the cival rights movement?

Starscream GaGa wrote:But, alas, Optimus does have followers in the movie, just to drive home this is a fantasy setting. It's fictional. Optimus damn well could've forgiven Megatron and it would've been just as realistic or unrealistic as every other scene in the movie.

In a real life situation where you hand someome..
Betray you, start a civial war, kill one of your best friends, **** on a lesser speices, atempt to kill you (since were playing the real game, we'll say "Attempt" since at this point you can't bring someone back to life with sinny piece of metal), conspire with your life long mentor to betray you...
And this person offers a truce, with the condition that he be in command of said forces or how things will transpire from this point forward (but still wanting to persure his overall views of tranny)..
Would you just openly gorgive this individual for everything they have done in the past, squash it like it never happened and continue on with life?
I'm asking you StarScream GaGa. IN a real life situation, do you feel a person that has done everything megatron has done is worth trusting?