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The morals of the transformers movies.

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:11 pm

5150 Cruiser wrote:
Starscream GaGa wrote:
5150 Cruiser wrote:As far as the food aurgument, i don't believe thats fair. If the purpose is hunting for food and clothing, then thats an aurgument of survial. If were seen as being put down for this, then whats the difference between us hunting them for food and animals hunting other animals for food?

The Decepticons needed the humans for survival. Is that any different?

I'm not a Decepticon sympathizer, I'm just throwing it out there.


Yes, it is. The difference is we inhabit the same planet that we hunt food on to survive. We need to eat. Thats a fact.
The decepticons destroyed their own planet due to there greed for power. They then proceed to another planet for resources to rebuild. They did not need our slave labor. They had been living on our planet in disguise for years as so did the Autobots. The Autbots found a way to co-exshist with humans that did not envolve us as slaves. There is no reason the decepticons could not do the same.
one would think that if a certain way of life (aka the decepticons greed for power and the resulting war) destroyed your home planet, that maybe you should be rethinking about your cause. Its does no good to rebuild if your doomed to just repeat your mistakes.

do we meed t eat meat

have we not been destroying our planet, look at the climate, look at the ice caps, look at the rain foresr
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:56 pm

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shamone wrote:by the standards that humanity has established.


Well if any other species would like to add in their thoughts, I'd be happy to hear it.

shamone wrote:we have decided they are below us and not worthy of freedom.


Of course we did! And we earned that right, too! We didn't just drop in, decide we were best and take over. We started as a bunch of monkeys and fought and clawed and earned our place as the dominate species.

shamone wrote:do we meed t eat meat


Sure. But then if you want to go the whole "Eating meat is wrong" stock argument, you're going to have to apply that to every species. In which sense, Lion's are jerks. And Dolphins are thrill-killing serial rapists. (Look it up, seriously)

shamone wrote:have we not been destroying our planet, look at the climate, look at the ice caps, look at the rain foresr


Ah, this old stock argument. Every time someone pulls it out, they conveniently forget how we're desperately trying to undo the damage we did, once we realized how serious it was.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:19 pm

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shamone wrote: do we meed t eat meat


Do animals need to eat meet? Like Shadow man said, would you consider Lions, Tigers and Bears (Oh My!! :P ) jerks in the same sence?

shamone wrote:have we not been destroying our planet, look at the climate, look at the ice caps, look at the rain foresr


1.- We have realised our mistakes and are working to correct them (Please go back to my point about history)

2.- we are not trying to find a sub par planet and use there population as slave labor.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:02 am

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:by the standards that humanity has established.


Well if any other species would like to add in their thoughts, I'd be happy to hear it.

shamone wrote:we have decided they are below us and not worthy of freedom.


Of course we did! And we earned that right, too! We didn't just drop in, decide we were best and take over. We started as a bunch of monkeys and fought and clawed and earned our place as the dominate species.

shamone wrote:do we meed t eat meat


Sure. But then if you want to go the whole "Eating meat is wrong" stock argument, you're going to have to apply that to every species. In which sense, Lion's are jerks. And Dolphins are thrill-killing serial rapists. (Look it up, seriously)

shamone wrote:have we not been destroying our planet, look at the climate, look at the ice caps, look at the rain foresr


Ah, this old stock argument. Every time someone pulls it out, they conveniently forget how we're desperately trying to undo the damage we did, once we realized how serious it was.


you miss the point there. Of course they cant add to it, they are "lesser" species than us. But should we condemn them to slavery, butchery and pain because they are lesser. Because they have not yet developed the ability to express.

so the cons have developed and fought to be the new dominant species. do they have the same right

i never said eating meat was the problem as such but they way we mass farm it, enslaving animals doing it. animals for the most part kill when they have to eat, they dont farm the animals or enslave them

the stock argument is the factual argument. Cons are trying to undo the damage they did
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:06 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:
shamone wrote: do we meed t eat meat


Do animals need to eat meet? Like Shadow man said, would you consider Lions, Tigers and Bears (Oh My!! :P ) jerks in the same sence?

shamone wrote:have we not been destroying our planet, look at the climate, look at the ice caps, look at the rain foresr


1.- We have realised our mistakes and are working to correct them (Please go back to my point about history)

2.- we are not trying to find a sub par planet and use there population as slave labor.


do animals enslave other animals. And some animals can only eat meat, they have no choice, due to evolution. and the ecological system needs carnivores and omnivores, underwise the balance is maladjusted.

you claim we have learnt by our history. check oil and other fossil fuel consumption and tell me what we have learnt. Look at the drilling in Alaska.

For years there have been studies to find a suitable planet for relocation. A lot of the NASA missions were based around this. Remember plans for a mars base. This is not just for science, but due to the damage we have caused. Why has nbot been continued, cost and infeasibility.

Our first steo was not to amend our behavior but find an external solution
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Marcdachamp » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:38 am

SlyTF1 wrote:The first movie's moral was that you can't expect a victory without sacrifice. Even though the movie never really went out of it's way to show you that.

ROTF had kind of a moral that nothing can stop you from fulfilling your destiny (even death). Even if you do die, it was still your destiny to do so and nothing can stop it.

And DOTM had one of "How far is too far?" It showed both humans and Cybertronians taking drastic measures to save their worlds from extinction. It was really a reflection of the two civilizations.

I really think these movies are deep to an extent.


I think the first film is very deep and has a really nice center. While it's hip to rag on the movies as far as plot goes, there's something... kind of magical about it, for lack of a better word. There's a child like innocence to the flick. It feels like ET or Raiders of the Lost Ark.

That goes completely off the tracks with the second film, but I think the third helped to relaign things quite a bit. It's quite a bit darker, but that's okay. It makes sense, given the Decepticons intentions.

I'd like to see the next film tone down the darkness a little and get back to the wonder, though. Something closer to the first film.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby SlyTF1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:43 am

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Marcdachamp wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:The first movie's moral was that you can't expect a victory without sacrifice. Even though the movie never really went out of it's way to show you that.

ROTF had kind of a moral that nothing can stop you from fulfilling your destiny (even death). Even if you do die, it was still your destiny to do so and nothing can stop it.

And DOTM had one of "How far is too far?" It showed both humans and Cybertronians taking drastic measures to save their worlds from extinction. It was really a reflection of the two civilizations.

I really think these movies are deep to an extent.


I think the first film is very deep and has a really nice center. While it's hip to rag on the movies as far as plot goes, there's something... kind of magical about it, for lack of a better word. There's a child like innocence to the flick. It feels like ET or Raiders of the Lost Ark.


Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:49 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:you miss the point there. Of course they cant add to it, they are "lesser" species than us. But should we condemn them to slavery, butchery and pain because they are lesser. Because they have not yet developed the ability to express.


We didn't either. We earned our right to rule this planet.

shamone wrote:so the cons have developed and fought to be the new dominant species. do they have the same right


No, they have their own planet. But they decided they wanted ours so they came to trash that to make their own planet nicer.

shamone wrote:i never said eating meat was the problem as such but they way we mass farm it, enslaving animals doing it. animals for the most part kill when they have to eat, they dont farm the animals or enslave them


And yet starvation is still a serious problem. Funny that. Likewise, look at the deer. We actually have to hunt and kill them each year; it's been proven that they don't know when to quit, and if we don't hunt them they'll overpopulate and end up starving themselves to death.

shamone wrote:the stock argument is the factual argument. Cons are trying to undo the damage they did


No, it's just the one that keeps getting parroted while ignoring new facts. The cons are trying to fix Cybertron by destroying Earth. We're trying to fix Earth without even going to other planets.

shamone wrote:you claim we have learnt by our history. check oil and other fossil fuel consumption and tell me what we have learnt. Look at the drilling in Alaska.


That fuel emissions are currently a necessary evil while we are desperately looking for alternative fuel sources.

shamone wrote:For years there have been studies to find a suitable planet for relocation. A lot of the NASA missions were based around this. Remember plans for a mars base. This is not just for science, but due to the damage we have caused. Why has nbot been continued, cost and infeasibility.


Except there's no other usable planet that we can actually travel to. Mars is a dead rock, we've known that for years.

shamone wrote:Our first steo was not to amend our behavior but find an external solution


Okay, so instead of amending out behavior regarding the treatment of our planet, we instead went looking for a solution...which, when applied, would amend our behavior regarding the treatment of our planet.

You could make a Vulcan's head explode with that kind of logic, you know that?
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Marcdachamp » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:17 pm

SlyTF1 wrote:Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.


Yeah, I can understand that, but sometimes a little light helps balance out the dark, you know?

And I say this as someone who really loved DotM.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:30 pm

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shamone wrote: do animals enslave other animals. And some animals can only eat meat, they have no choice, due to evolution. and the ecological system needs carnivores and omnivores, underwise the balance is maladjusted.


I still don't see it as slavery. Many of these animals are here as our food. Just as some animals are other animals food. IN our evolution we have simpley found better ways to channel our food then going outside with a big stick and beating the crap out of them. Bottom line we still are eating what we capture. were not breeding them to slave labor to rebuild our detroyed land.

shamone wrote:vyou claim we have learnt by our history. check oil and other fossil fuel consumption and tell me what we have learnt. Look at the drilling in Alaska.


Change is not going to happen over night. We are still going to be drilling for several more years before alternitive energy gets more popular. Thats just the way things will have to be intill more people get on board.

shamone wrote:For years there have been studies to find a suitable planet for relocation. A lot of the NASA missions were based around this. Remember plans for a mars base. This is not just for science, but due to the damage we have caused. Why has nbot been continued, cost and infeasibility.

Our first steo was not to amend our behavior but find an external solution


A couple things..

1.- I never believed this. Because of some pullutants people actually thought about relocating planets. :roll: Sounds more like consiracy therey than anything. One doesn't need a Mars base to realsie that this just isn't feasible. But for aurguments sake lets say it was. Its still not the same...


2.-Mars is a dormant planet. we would not be enslaving another species to rebuild ours nor would we be pushing one off their own planet.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
5150 Cruiser wrote:1.- I never believed this. Because of some pullutants people actually thought about relocating planets. :roll: Sounds more like consiracy therey than anything. One doesn't need a Mars base to realsie that this just isn't feasible. But for aurguments sake lets say it was. Its still not the same...


2.-Mars is a dormant planet. we would not be enslaving another species to rebuild ours nor would we be pushing one off their own planet.


Not to mention, it's completely absurd. No one at NASA is dumb enough to consider Mars a suitable replacement for anything. It's not capable of supporting us, the planet is entirely dead. It's like replacing a dying car with an already broken-down one.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:45 am

Shadowman wrote:
5150 Cruiser wrote:1.- I never believed this. Because of some pullutants people actually thought about relocating planets. :roll: Sounds more like consiracy therey than anything. One doesn't need a Mars base to realsie that this just isn't feasible. But for aurguments sake lets say it was. Its still not the same...


2.-Mars is a dormant planet. we would not be enslaving another species to rebuild ours nor would we be pushing one off their own planet.


Not to mention, it's completely absurd. No one at NASA is dumb enough to consider Mars a suitable replacement for anything. It's not capable of supporting us, the planet is entirely dead. It's like replacing a dying car with an already broken-down one.


this is for 5150 as well


... the goal isn't just scientific exploration ... it's also about extending the range of human habitat out from Earth into the solar system as we go forward in time ... In the long run a single-planet species will not survive ... If we humans want to survive for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, we must ultimately populate other planets. Now, today the technology is such that this is barely conceivable. We're in the infancy of it. ... I'm talking about that one day, I don't know when that day is, but there will be more human beings who live off the Earth than on it. We may well have people living on the moon. We may have people living on the moons of Jupiter and other planets. We may have people making habitats on asteroids ... I know that humans will colonize the solar system and one day go beyond.

- Michael D. Griffin[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_colonization

so thats that put to bed
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:58 am

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:you miss the point there. Of course they cant add to it, they are "lesser" species than us. But should we condemn them to slavery, butchery and pain because they are lesser. Because they have not yet developed the ability to express.


We didn't either. We earned our right to rule this planet.

shamone wrote:so the cons have developed and fought to be the new dominant species. do they have the same right


No, they have their own planet. But they decided they wanted ours so they came to trash that to make their own planet nicer.

shamone wrote:i never said eating meat was the problem as such but they way we mass farm it, enslaving animals doing it. animals for the most part kill when they have to eat, they dont farm the animals or enslave them


And yet starvation is still a serious problem. Funny that. Likewise, look at the deer. We actually have to hunt and kill them each year; it's been proven that they don't know when to quit, and if we don't hunt them they'll overpopulate and end up starving themselves to death.

shamone wrote:the stock argument is the factual argument. Cons are trying to undo the damage they did


No, it's just the one that keeps getting parroted while ignoring new facts. The cons are trying to fix Cybertron by destroying Earth. We're trying to fix Earth without even going to other planets.

shamone wrote:you claim we have learnt by our history. check oil and other fossil fuel consumption and tell me what we have learnt. Look at the drilling in Alaska.


That fuel emissions are currently a necessary evil while we are desperately looking for alternative fuel sources.

shamone wrote:For years there have been studies to find a suitable planet for relocation. A lot of the NASA missions were based around this. Remember plans for a mars base. This is not just for science, but due to the damage we have caused. Why has nbot been continued, cost and infeasibility.


Except there's no other usable planet that we can actually travel to. Mars is a dead rock, we've known that for years.

shamone wrote:Our first steo was not to amend our behavior but find an external solution


Okay, so instead of amending out behavior regarding the treatment of our planet, we instead went looking for a solution...which, when applied, would amend our behavior regarding the treatment of our planet.

You could make a Vulcan's head explode with that kind of logic, you know that?


1. earned our place. By evolution, a process pretty much out of our control. The fact that we got lucky by coincidence should mean we should respect our position and be humkble in our fortune. Not declare we rule the world.

2. starvation is a problem, due to commercial farming and miuse of arable lands. You honestly think there the reason there is famines is due to lack of food. Come on use your common sense here.

3. a necessary evil which we refuse to use. Sure when the world is destroyed then hey we had no choice right !

4. We have studied other planets for colonization. If the time came where it was a critical decision and a lesser species populated the planet and their destruction was necessary for ours would we decide to expire. Evolution says otherwise

5. you mistake the logic. The first thing we did when faced with ele event was find another planet, not change our behavior. thats my point
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:46 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:1. earned our place. By evolution, a process pretty much out of our control. The fact that we got lucky by coincidence should mean we should respect our position and be humkble in our fortune. Not declare we rule the world.


But we DO rule the world. I don't see cats making any major decisions in society.

shamone wrote:2. starvation is a problem, due to commercial farming and miuse of arable lands. You honestly think there the reason there is famines is due to lack of food. Come on use your common sense here.


Well, considering "famine" actually means "lack of food" I suppose so.

shamone wrote:3. a necessary evil which we refuse to use. Sure when the world is destroyed then hey we had no choice right !


Yes...we refuse to use fuel, the necessary evil I mentioned.

shamone wrote:4. We have studied other planets for colonization. If the time came where it was a critical decision and a lesser species populated the planet and their destruction was necessary for ours would we decide to expire. Evolution says otherwise


Evolution says we turn into a space-faring planet-conquering species? I don't know which evolutionary step that was. When, exactly, did we wipe out an entire species for our convenience?

shamone wrote:5. you mistake the logic. The first thing we did when faced with ele event was find another planet, not change our behavior. thats my point


And whoever made that decision was an idiot, and no one listened to him. There aren't any other habitable planets in this system. The next star out? Consider this, Mars is about .5 AU away from Earth, and the trip is estimated to take several months. Proxima Centauri, the star next door, is about 268,000 AU out.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:29 pm

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shamone wrote: this is for 5150 as well


... the goal isn't just scientific exploration ... it's also about extending the range of human habitat out from Earth into the solar system as we go forward in time ... In the long run a single-planet species will not survive ... If we humans want to survive for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, we must ultimately populate other planets. Now, today the technology is such that this is barely conceivable. We're in the infancy of it. ... I'm talking about that one day, I don't know when that day is, but there will be more human beings who live off the Earth than on it. We may well have people living on the moon. We may have people living on the moons of Jupiter and other planets. We may have people making habitats on asteroids ... I know that humans will colonize the solar system and one day go beyond.

- Michael D. Griffin[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_colonization

so thats that put to bed


I have no doubts that in 200 years time we will be able to colinise on other planets. But thats not the aurgument.
The aurgument is that if this were to ocure, (Such as the mars example), we wouldn't be pushing another speices off, or enslaving them to rebuild our world. The decepticons were.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:51 pm

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Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.

There's no such thing.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby SlyTF1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:59 pm

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RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.

There's no such thing.


You're right. There's no such thing as innocence.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:01 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.

There's no such thing.


You're right. There's no such thing as innocence.


Oh, clever. :roll: Gimme innocence over grimdark any day of the year.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:43 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:
shamone wrote: this is for 5150 as well


... the goal isn't just scientific exploration ... it's also about extending the range of human habitat out from Earth into the solar system as we go forward in time ... In the long run a single-planet species will not survive ... If we humans want to survive for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, we must ultimately populate other planets. Now, today the technology is such that this is barely conceivable. We're in the infancy of it. ... I'm talking about that one day, I don't know when that day is, but there will be more human beings who live off the Earth than on it. We may well have people living on the moon. We may have people living on the moons of Jupiter and other planets. We may have people making habitats on asteroids ... I know that humans will colonize the solar system and one day go beyond.

- Michael D. Griffin[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_colonization

so thats that put to bed


I have no doubts that in 200 years time we will be able to colinise on other planets. But thats not the aurgument.
The aurgument is that if this were to ocure, (Such as the mars example), we wouldn't be pushing another speices off, or enslaving them to rebuild our world. The decepticons were.


this is jsut quoted to make a lie of the statement that you said it was a myth

and if we needed to, would we let our existence die out in order to preserve a species we deem lesser than us
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:52 am

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:1. earned our place. By evolution, a process pretty much out of our control. The fact that we got lucky by coincidence should mean we should respect our position and be humkble in our fortune. Not declare we rule the world.


But we DO rule the world. I don't see cats making any major decisions in society.

shamone wrote:2. starvation is a problem, due to commercial farming and miuse of arable lands. You honestly think there the reason there is famines is due to lack of food. Come on use your common sense here.


Well, considering "famine" actually means "lack of food" I suppose so.

shamone wrote:3. a necessary evil which we refuse to use. Sure when the world is destroyed then hey we had no choice right !


Yes...we refuse to use fuel, the necessary evil I mentioned.

shamone wrote:4. We have studied other planets for colonization. If the time came where it was a critical decision and a lesser species populated the planet and their destruction was necessary for ours would we decide to expire. Evolution says otherwise


Evolution says we turn into a space-faring planet-conquering species? I don't know which evolutionary step that was. When, exactly, did we wipe out an entire species for our convenience?

shamone wrote:5. you mistake the logic. The first thing we did when faced with ele event was find another planet, not change our behavior. thats my point


And whoever made that decision was an idiot, and no one listened to him. There aren't any other habitable planets in this system. The next star out? Consider this, Mars is about .5 AU away from Earth, and the trip is estimated to take several months. Proxima Centauri, the star next door, is about 268,000 AU out.


1. society isnt the world. its the construct we have for the condition we live in. yeh we are the dominant species, and with that comes a matter of respect and responsibility

2. I dont know if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but do you believe that there isnt enough food in the world. Famine is caused by any number of things, usually economics. The irish famine was not due to lack of food. The lack of food in the world is not ause for starvation, because there isnt a lack of food

3. We continue to use fuel, because its a necessary evil. Will that be a sufficent excuse when we destroy the world, we had no choice !

4. I didnt actually say that. What i said was that evolution is about the survival of the species. Evolution dictates that we do what we can to preserve our existence. so domination of a world if needed, evolution says we would.

And in answer to your question, wipe out an entire species - buffalos http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/buffalo.htm

we have dont it once when unncessary, would we not do it when it was needed

5. lets see, Senior NASA official or internet poster. I know which one most would think is the idiot, unless you are a NASA official. Im not calling you an idiot just we are all probably idiots compared to NASA officials
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:19 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:1. society isnt the world. its the construct we have for the condition we live in. yeh we are the dominant species, and with that comes a matter of respect and responsibility


No, but the world is, and we rule that.

shamone wrote:2. I dont know if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but do you believe that there isnt enough food in the world. Famine is caused by any number of things, usually economics. The irish famine was not due to lack of food. The lack of food in the world is not ause for starvation, because there isnt a lack of food


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

shamone wrote:3. We continue to use fuel, because its a necessary evil. Will that be a sufficent excuse when we destroy the world, we had no choice !


You're acting as if the planet itself is in critical condition right now. Here's an idea: Take a deep breath. Did you drop dead? If not, then the air around you is safe to breath, and will be for centuries to come. Will Global Warming happen? Most likely, but not soon. And anyone who is responsible for any sort of pollution is already working right now on correcting their mistakes.

shamone wrote:4. I didnt actually say that. What i said was that evolution is about the survival of the species. Evolution dictates that we do what we can to preserve our existence. so domination of a world if needed, evolution says we would.


Seriously, stop using older evolutionary steps as an argument. We are not monkeys anymore, anything we did then doesn't apply to now, considering how vastly society, as well as our standards of morality, have changed.

shamone wrote:And in answer to your question, wipe out an entire species - buffalos http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/buffalo.htm

we have dont it once when unncessary, would we not do it when it was needed


Um...the buffalo--or more appropriately, the American Bison (Which is often wrongly referred to as the buffalo, as in that link)--isn't extinct. It is, however, on the endangered species list, which makes killing it illegal.

shamone wrote:5. lets see, Senior NASA official or internet poster. I know which one most would think is the idiot, unless you are a NASA official. Im not calling you an idiot just we are all probably idiots compared to NASA officials


The senior NASA official, I think. Because if you think replacing a dying planet with a dead one is a good idea, you're an idiot.

Okay, I'm just going to ignore shamone now. He's just posting these blatantly wrong arguments to ruffle our feathers, and it's really not worth the headache.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:33 pm

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:1. society isnt the world. its the construct we have for the condition we live in. yeh we are the dominant species, and with that comes a matter of respect and responsibility


No, but the world is, and we rule that.

shamone wrote:2. I dont know if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but do you believe that there isnt enough food in the world. Famine is caused by any number of things, usually economics. The irish famine was not due to lack of food. The lack of food in the world is not ause for starvation, because there isnt a lack of food


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

shamone wrote:3. We continue to use fuel, because its a necessary evil. Will that be a sufficent excuse when we destroy the world, we had no choice !


You're acting as if the planet itself is in critical condition right now. Here's an idea: Take a deep breath. Did you drop dead? If not, then the air around you is safe to breath, and will be for centuries to come. Will Global Warming happen? Most likely, but not soon. And anyone who is responsible for any sort of pollution is already working right now on correcting their mistakes.

shamone wrote:4. I didnt actually say that. What i said was that evolution is about the survival of the species. Evolution dictates that we do what we can to preserve our existence. so domination of a world if needed, evolution says we would.


Seriously, stop using older evolutionary steps as an argument. We are not monkeys anymore, anything we did then doesn't apply to now, considering how vastly society, as well as our standards of morality, have changed.

shamone wrote:And in answer to your question, wipe out an entire species - buffalos http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/buffalo.htm

we have dont it once when unncessary, would we not do it when it was needed


Um...the buffalo--or more appropriately, the American Bison (Which is often wrongly referred to as the buffalo, as in that link)--isn't extinct. It is, however, on the endangered species list, which makes killing it illegal.

shamone wrote:5. lets see, Senior NASA official or internet poster. I know which one most would think is the idiot, unless you are a NASA official. Im not calling you an idiot just we are all probably idiots compared to NASA officials


The senior NASA official, I think. Because if you think replacing a dying planet with a dead one is a good idea, you're an idiot.

Okay, I'm just going to ignore shamone now. He's just posting these blatantly wrong arguments to ruffle our feathers, and it's really not worth the headache.



im sorry you arent willing to learn or look beyond strongly held mistruths, but maybe some of this will inspire you to do some research

1. I come from a nation that experienced famine. It is ingrained in our history. and you know what happened, it was purely economic, our resources and food produce was exported, whilst people starved. In africa the strongest cause of famine is civil war and misappropriation of resources.

you insult people when you say famine = not enough food. its a purely economic state. the average household throws out 33 per cent of purchased food. there a re lakes of wine and mountains of butter being overproduced.

2 because i can breathe today it means i will breathe tomorrow. thats not even an argument, not worthy of further comment, but symboli of attitude that got us where we are

3. evolution doesnt stop, when it does we die, the line is adapt or die. humanity continues to evolve. I wont go further on about it, until you have shown an understanding of the concept

4 im still sticking with nasa guy being more intelligent than both of us
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:03 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:im sorry you arent willing to learn or look beyond strongly held mistruths, but maybe some of this will inspire you to do some research


I should say the exact same thing to you. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post, but my best guess is that it uses a ton of misconceptions about environmental, sociological, and biological sciences pertaining to evolution and humanity's effect on the environment.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:18 pm

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:im sorry you arent willing to learn or look beyond strongly held mistruths, but maybe some of this will inspire you to do some research


I should say the exact same thing to you. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post, but my best guess is that it uses a ton of misconceptions about environmental, sociological, and biological sciences pertaining to evolution and humanity's effect on the environment.


well im not turning this into a flame war, so enjoy, but my misconceptions are based on education, experience, and research, actually misconceptions should be replaced with facts

the fact that you wont even bother to read something which you dont agree with confirms that you are not willing to learn, you will stubbornly hold onto ideas you dont understand, miscomprehended interpretations of complex systems

i despair that there is such ignorance out there than can stand by the following statement

Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:03 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
The really funny thing is, you never actually gave any proof for your arguments. I mean, there was that NASA quote (Which had nothing to do with establishing offworld colonies as an alternative to fixing the planet, but instead simply for the sake of establishing offworld colonies) and that link about the Buffalo, but your argument fell flat since they aren't extinct.

So, if you really want to make it look like you know what you're talking about, give me some links that support your arguments. Because right now, I can easily counter-point anything you say since you haven't proven anything.

But to answer the older question: Would we enslave an alien species to help rebuild our planet? The answer: No, we're currently doing that by ourselves.
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #96 - Age of Extinction
Twincast / Podcast #96:
"Age of Extinction"
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