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The morals of the transformers movies.

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:51 pm

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Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.

There's no such thing.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby SlyTF1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:59 pm

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RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.

There's no such thing.


You're right. There's no such thing as innocence.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:01 pm

Motto: ""I am a warrior. Let the battle be joined.""
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SlyTF1 wrote:
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
Maybe that's why I don't like it much. Too much innocence.

There's no such thing.


You're right. There's no such thing as innocence.


Oh, clever. :roll: Gimme innocence over grimdark any day of the year.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:43 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:
shamone wrote: this is for 5150 as well


... the goal isn't just scientific exploration ... it's also about extending the range of human habitat out from Earth into the solar system as we go forward in time ... In the long run a single-planet species will not survive ... If we humans want to survive for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, we must ultimately populate other planets. Now, today the technology is such that this is barely conceivable. We're in the infancy of it. ... I'm talking about that one day, I don't know when that day is, but there will be more human beings who live off the Earth than on it. We may well have people living on the moon. We may have people living on the moons of Jupiter and other planets. We may have people making habitats on asteroids ... I know that humans will colonize the solar system and one day go beyond.

- Michael D. Griffin[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_colonization

so thats that put to bed


I have no doubts that in 200 years time we will be able to colinise on other planets. But thats not the aurgument.
The aurgument is that if this were to ocure, (Such as the mars example), we wouldn't be pushing another speices off, or enslaving them to rebuild our world. The decepticons were.


this is jsut quoted to make a lie of the statement that you said it was a myth

and if we needed to, would we let our existence die out in order to preserve a species we deem lesser than us
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:52 am

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:1. earned our place. By evolution, a process pretty much out of our control. The fact that we got lucky by coincidence should mean we should respect our position and be humkble in our fortune. Not declare we rule the world.


But we DO rule the world. I don't see cats making any major decisions in society.

shamone wrote:2. starvation is a problem, due to commercial farming and miuse of arable lands. You honestly think there the reason there is famines is due to lack of food. Come on use your common sense here.


Well, considering "famine" actually means "lack of food" I suppose so.

shamone wrote:3. a necessary evil which we refuse to use. Sure when the world is destroyed then hey we had no choice right !


Yes...we refuse to use fuel, the necessary evil I mentioned.

shamone wrote:4. We have studied other planets for colonization. If the time came where it was a critical decision and a lesser species populated the planet and their destruction was necessary for ours would we decide to expire. Evolution says otherwise


Evolution says we turn into a space-faring planet-conquering species? I don't know which evolutionary step that was. When, exactly, did we wipe out an entire species for our convenience?

shamone wrote:5. you mistake the logic. The first thing we did when faced with ele event was find another planet, not change our behavior. thats my point


And whoever made that decision was an idiot, and no one listened to him. There aren't any other habitable planets in this system. The next star out? Consider this, Mars is about .5 AU away from Earth, and the trip is estimated to take several months. Proxima Centauri, the star next door, is about 268,000 AU out.


1. society isnt the world. its the construct we have for the condition we live in. yeh we are the dominant species, and with that comes a matter of respect and responsibility

2. I dont know if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but do you believe that there isnt enough food in the world. Famine is caused by any number of things, usually economics. The irish famine was not due to lack of food. The lack of food in the world is not ause for starvation, because there isnt a lack of food

3. We continue to use fuel, because its a necessary evil. Will that be a sufficent excuse when we destroy the world, we had no choice !

4. I didnt actually say that. What i said was that evolution is about the survival of the species. Evolution dictates that we do what we can to preserve our existence. so domination of a world if needed, evolution says we would.

And in answer to your question, wipe out an entire species - buffalos http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/buffalo.htm

we have dont it once when unncessary, would we not do it when it was needed

5. lets see, Senior NASA official or internet poster. I know which one most would think is the idiot, unless you are a NASA official. Im not calling you an idiot just we are all probably idiots compared to NASA officials
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:19 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:1. society isnt the world. its the construct we have for the condition we live in. yeh we are the dominant species, and with that comes a matter of respect and responsibility


No, but the world is, and we rule that.

shamone wrote:2. I dont know if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but do you believe that there isnt enough food in the world. Famine is caused by any number of things, usually economics. The irish famine was not due to lack of food. The lack of food in the world is not ause for starvation, because there isnt a lack of food


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

shamone wrote:3. We continue to use fuel, because its a necessary evil. Will that be a sufficent excuse when we destroy the world, we had no choice !


You're acting as if the planet itself is in critical condition right now. Here's an idea: Take a deep breath. Did you drop dead? If not, then the air around you is safe to breath, and will be for centuries to come. Will Global Warming happen? Most likely, but not soon. And anyone who is responsible for any sort of pollution is already working right now on correcting their mistakes.

shamone wrote:4. I didnt actually say that. What i said was that evolution is about the survival of the species. Evolution dictates that we do what we can to preserve our existence. so domination of a world if needed, evolution says we would.


Seriously, stop using older evolutionary steps as an argument. We are not monkeys anymore, anything we did then doesn't apply to now, considering how vastly society, as well as our standards of morality, have changed.

shamone wrote:And in answer to your question, wipe out an entire species - buffalos http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/buffalo.htm

we have dont it once when unncessary, would we not do it when it was needed


Um...the buffalo--or more appropriately, the American Bison (Which is often wrongly referred to as the buffalo, as in that link)--isn't extinct. It is, however, on the endangered species list, which makes killing it illegal.

shamone wrote:5. lets see, Senior NASA official or internet poster. I know which one most would think is the idiot, unless you are a NASA official. Im not calling you an idiot just we are all probably idiots compared to NASA officials


The senior NASA official, I think. Because if you think replacing a dying planet with a dead one is a good idea, you're an idiot.

Okay, I'm just going to ignore shamone now. He's just posting these blatantly wrong arguments to ruffle our feathers, and it's really not worth the headache.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:33 pm

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:1. society isnt the world. its the construct we have for the condition we live in. yeh we are the dominant species, and with that comes a matter of respect and responsibility


No, but the world is, and we rule that.

shamone wrote:2. I dont know if you are being deliberately obtuse here, but do you believe that there isnt enough food in the world. Famine is caused by any number of things, usually economics. The irish famine was not due to lack of food. The lack of food in the world is not ause for starvation, because there isnt a lack of food


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

shamone wrote:3. We continue to use fuel, because its a necessary evil. Will that be a sufficent excuse when we destroy the world, we had no choice !


You're acting as if the planet itself is in critical condition right now. Here's an idea: Take a deep breath. Did you drop dead? If not, then the air around you is safe to breath, and will be for centuries to come. Will Global Warming happen? Most likely, but not soon. And anyone who is responsible for any sort of pollution is already working right now on correcting their mistakes.

shamone wrote:4. I didnt actually say that. What i said was that evolution is about the survival of the species. Evolution dictates that we do what we can to preserve our existence. so domination of a world if needed, evolution says we would.


Seriously, stop using older evolutionary steps as an argument. We are not monkeys anymore, anything we did then doesn't apply to now, considering how vastly society, as well as our standards of morality, have changed.

shamone wrote:And in answer to your question, wipe out an entire species - buffalos http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/buffalo.htm

we have dont it once when unncessary, would we not do it when it was needed


Um...the buffalo--or more appropriately, the American Bison (Which is often wrongly referred to as the buffalo, as in that link)--isn't extinct. It is, however, on the endangered species list, which makes killing it illegal.

shamone wrote:5. lets see, Senior NASA official or internet poster. I know which one most would think is the idiot, unless you are a NASA official. Im not calling you an idiot just we are all probably idiots compared to NASA officials


The senior NASA official, I think. Because if you think replacing a dying planet with a dead one is a good idea, you're an idiot.

Okay, I'm just going to ignore shamone now. He's just posting these blatantly wrong arguments to ruffle our feathers, and it's really not worth the headache.



im sorry you arent willing to learn or look beyond strongly held mistruths, but maybe some of this will inspire you to do some research

1. I come from a nation that experienced famine. It is ingrained in our history. and you know what happened, it was purely economic, our resources and food produce was exported, whilst people starved. In africa the strongest cause of famine is civil war and misappropriation of resources.

you insult people when you say famine = not enough food. its a purely economic state. the average household throws out 33 per cent of purchased food. there a re lakes of wine and mountains of butter being overproduced.

2 because i can breathe today it means i will breathe tomorrow. thats not even an argument, not worthy of further comment, but symboli of attitude that got us where we are

3. evolution doesnt stop, when it does we die, the line is adapt or die. humanity continues to evolve. I wont go further on about it, until you have shown an understanding of the concept

4 im still sticking with nasa guy being more intelligent than both of us
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:03 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:im sorry you arent willing to learn or look beyond strongly held mistruths, but maybe some of this will inspire you to do some research


I should say the exact same thing to you. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post, but my best guess is that it uses a ton of misconceptions about environmental, sociological, and biological sciences pertaining to evolution and humanity's effect on the environment.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:18 pm

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:im sorry you arent willing to learn or look beyond strongly held mistruths, but maybe some of this will inspire you to do some research


I should say the exact same thing to you. I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post, but my best guess is that it uses a ton of misconceptions about environmental, sociological, and biological sciences pertaining to evolution and humanity's effect on the environment.


well im not turning this into a flame war, so enjoy, but my misconceptions are based on education, experience, and research, actually misconceptions should be replaced with facts

the fact that you wont even bother to read something which you dont agree with confirms that you are not willing to learn, you will stubbornly hold onto ideas you dont understand, miscomprehended interpretations of complex systems

i despair that there is such ignorance out there than can stand by the following statement

Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:03 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
The really funny thing is, you never actually gave any proof for your arguments. I mean, there was that NASA quote (Which had nothing to do with establishing offworld colonies as an alternative to fixing the planet, but instead simply for the sake of establishing offworld colonies) and that link about the Buffalo, but your argument fell flat since they aren't extinct.

So, if you really want to make it look like you know what you're talking about, give me some links that support your arguments. Because right now, I can easily counter-point anything you say since you haven't proven anything.

But to answer the older question: Would we enslave an alien species to help rebuild our planet? The answer: No, we're currently doing that by ourselves.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:24 pm

Shadowman wrote:The really funny thing is, you never actually gave any proof for your arguments. I mean, there was that NASA quote (Which had nothing to do with establishing offworld colonies as an alternative to fixing the planet, but instead simply for the sake of establishing offworld colonies) and that link about the Buffalo, but your argument fell flat since they aren't extinct.

So, if you really want to make it look like you know what you're talking about, give me some links that support your arguments. Because right now, I can easily counter-point anything you say since you haven't proven anything.

But to answer the older question: Would we enslave an alien species to help rebuild our planet? The answer: No, we're currently doing that by ourselves.


1. well the evolution argument is qa case of i you believe in evolution. if you do then you will have come across adapt or die, the selfish gene, the way a species will strive to perserve itself at the cost of others. If you dont believe in evolution then it wont mean anything

what links do you want, the origin of the species. its not a link but a book. start there and work forward. not being condescending but asking for a handy made link for evolution theory isnt that simple.

2. lack of food is cause of famine

Links to wasted food by households
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pri ... 66192.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 83,00.html
http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/sci_update.php?DocID=247
http://www.emagazine.com/daily-news/mou ... food-waste

cause of famine in ethopia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984%E2%80 ... n_Ethiopia

cause of famine in ireland
obstensibly failure of potato. but why did the irish rely primarily on this staple and only this staple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:13 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:1. well the evolution argument is qa case of i you believe in evolution. if you do then you will have come across adapt or die, the selfish gene, the way a species will strive to perserve itself at the cost of others. If you dont believe in evolution then it wont mean anything


Close, but no cigar. Basically, a member of a species will develop a trait that allows it to survive in its environment, allowing it to mate more and, as a result, pass along these traits. Not only have we, as humans, stopped developing new traits, we also see deviation from the norm as undesirable in a mate. Likewise, we no longer have a need to develop, as, like I explained, we adapt our environment to suit us instead of the other way around.

Likewise, preservation of both the species and self isn't part of evolution. It's correct, it's been proven, but it has nothing to do with evolution. While it is a part of genetics, it doesn't have anything to do with evolution.

shamone wrote:what links do you want, the origin of the species. its not a link but a book. start there and work forward. not being condescending but asking for a handy made link for evolution theory isnt that simple.


Yes, but most people tend to get it wrong; mutation doesn't happen on purpose, it happens by coincidence and, if those new traits allow you to live longer, luck.

shamone wrote:Links to wasted food by households


Irrelevant; me not eating the full bowl of Cheerios I poured has nothing to do with why people in Ehthiopia don't have any Cherrios.

shamone wrote:cause of famine in ethopia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984%E2%80 ... n_Ethiopia

cause of famine in ireland
obstensibly failure of potato. but why did the irish rely primarily on this staple and only this staple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29


Er...remind me again what you were trying to prove? I thought "Famine is a shortage of food" was my argument. Which gains credit as that's exactly what this link says. Also it's the actual definition in the dictionary. And it's what both of those links you posted said. True, economic and sociological issues were involved, but the ultimate result was a shortage of food in both cases.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:24 pm

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:1. well the evolution argument is qa case of i you believe in evolution. if you do then you will have come across adapt or die, the selfish gene, the way a species will strive to perserve itself at the cost of others. If you dont believe in evolution then it wont mean anything


Close, but no cigar. Basically, a member of a species will develop a trait that allows it to survive in its environment, allowing it to mate more and, as a result, pass along these traits. Not only have we, as humans, stopped developing new traits, we also see deviation from the norm as undesirable in a mate. Likewise, we no longer have a need to develop, as, like I explained, we adapt our environment to suit us instead of the other way around.

Likewise, preservation of both the species and self isn't part of evolution. It's correct, it's been proven, but it has nothing to do with evolution. While it is a part of genetics, it doesn't have anything to do with evolution.

shamone wrote:what links do you want, the origin of the species. its not a link but a book. start there and work forward. not being condescending but asking for a handy made link for evolution theory isnt that simple.


Yes, but most people tend to get it wrong; mutation doesn't happen on purpose, it happens by coincidence and, if those new traits allow you to live longer, luck.

shamone wrote:Links to wasted food by households


Irrelevant; me not eating the full bowl of Cheerios I poured has nothing to do with why people in Ehthiopia don't have any Cherrios.

shamone wrote:cause of famine in ethopia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984%E2%80 ... n_Ethiopia

cause of famine in ireland
obstensibly failure of potato. but why did the irish rely primarily on this staple and only this staple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29


Er...remind me again what you were trying to prove? I thought "Famine is a shortage of food" was my argument. Which gains credit as that's exactly what this link says. Also it's the actual definition in the dictionary. And it's what both of those links you posted said. True, economic and sociological issues were involved, but the ultimate result was a shortage of food in both cases.




1. if we have stopped evolving how come we are growing taller for example. im sorry but you are incorrect there.

genetics is a branch of evolution theory

2. you said and i quote


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

those links prove there is enough to go around, if distributed properly, or if we looked beyond economic concerns. its like saying that world war one was the result of gavrilo princip.

the lack of food stemmed from the other situations, so the shortage of food in the world is not the issue

3.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby Shadowman » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:57 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
shamone wrote:1. if we have stopped evolving how come we are growing taller for example. im sorry but you are incorrect there.


Who's "we?" Height ranges vastly from person to person.

shamone wrote:genetics is a branch of evolution theory


Other way around.

shamone wrote:2. you said and i quote


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

those links prove there is enough to go around, if distributed properly, or if we looked beyond economic concerns. its like saying that world war one was the result of gavrilo princip.

the lack of food stemmed from the other situations, so the shortage of food in the world is not the issue


Read that link you posted on Ethiopian famine. One of the first things it mentioned was record low rainfall, which means crop failure, which means not enough food.

shamone wrote:3.


That's actually the best point you've made in this entire thread.

I'm gonna go back to ignoring you now. I thought getting you to try and post proof of your arguments would help, but all you ended up doing was misinterpreting it.
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Re: The morals of the transformers movies.

Postby shamone » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Shadowman wrote:
shamone wrote:1. if we have stopped evolving how come we are growing taller for example. im sorry but you are incorrect there.


Who's "we?" Height ranges vastly from person to person.

shamone wrote:genetics is a branch of evolution theory


Other way around.

shamone wrote:2. you said and i quote


Well if there's enough food to go around, why is starvation such a problem?

those links prove there is enough to go around, if distributed properly, or if we looked beyond economic concerns. its like saying that world war one was the result of gavrilo princip.

the lack of food stemmed from the other situations, so the shortage of food in the world is not the issue


Read that link you posted on Ethiopian famine. One of the first things it mentioned was record low rainfall, which means crop failure, which means not enough food.

shamone wrote:3.


That's actually the best point you've made in this entire thread.

I'm gonna go back to ignoring you now. I thought getting you to try and post proof of your arguments would help, but all you ended up doing was misinterpreting it.



deliberately obtuse again, and ignorant

1 humanity has been growing progressively taller, average height is what i emant by "we", but you knew that anyway.

so bottom line you are saying we have reached the peak of our evolution and thats that.

2 you said there was not enough food in the world to meet need. thats the point you ignore. tell me do you still believe that fallacy

3 you didnt read the link to ethopia did you. this is here it began


In 1973, a famine in Wollo killed an estimated 40,000 to 80,000, mostly of the marginalized Afar herders and Oromo tenant farmers, who suffered from the widespread confiscation of land by the wealthy classes and government of Emperor Haile Selassie. Despite attempts to suppress news of this famine, leaked reports contributed to the undermining of the government's legitimacy and served as a rallying point for dissidents. In 1974, a group of Marxist soldiers known as the Derg overthrew Haile Selassie. The Derg addressed the Wollo famine by creating the Relief and Rehabilitation Commission (RRC) to examine the causes of the famine and prevent its recurrence, and then abolishing feudal tenure on March 1975. The RRC initially enjoyed more independence from the Derg than any other ministry, largely due to its close ties to foreign donors and the quality of some its senior staff. As a result, insurgencies began to spread into the countries administrative regions.[9]

4 furthermore humanity influence is linked to famine and destruction

Global dimming, the blocking of sunlight by man-made particulates, has been identified as one culprit for a decades-long drought across sub-Saharan Africa, including Ethiopia.[16]
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