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The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Discuss anything about the Transformers cartoons and comics! You can discuss anything from G1 to Cybertron as well as the comics from Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW and more!

Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Avensis-Mahiya » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:01 am

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Eh, personally I would have loved to have seen a forth season. And honestly, I would have rather they went through with the 3 years of story rather than condense everything they had planned.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Avensis-Mahiya » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:01 am

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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby kaijuguy19 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:29 pm

Do you think the Autobots as a whole in the series have some good interactions with each other or do you think the show didn't go deeper enough to their personatly and as a result think they're boring and one demensional? The reason I ask this is because many fans I've met talk about how they're just standing around the base, waiting to go back into the field and murder more Vehicons,don't have any traits for the viewer to identify with,and that we never saw them do stuff on their own outside of hanging out with the humans. They also said how the Decepticons are more interesting and entertaining then the Autobots because of this.

Here's a thread that talked about this for example.

http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transform ... -bots.html
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:59 pm

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When Smokescreen came into the picture is when I feel we got some really good interactions among the Autobots.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:14 pm

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kaijuguy19 wrote:Do you think the Autobots as a whole in the series have some good interactions with each other or do you think the show didn't go deeper enough to their personatly and as a result think they're boring and one demensional?





The show didn't dig into the Autobot's personality? I guess Ratchet, Smokescreen, Wheeljack, and Bumblebee didn't exist in this show then. :roll:

don't have any traits for the viewer to identify with,


That's because the fans you are talking to severely lack the ability to analyze a cartoon and its characters.

Ratchet is a serious spirit with a strong hatred for humans and their technology, which is the basis for his character development throughout the series.

Wheeljack is a loose cannon who is rebellious against authority, and prefers to work alone, yet another point of character development when he became a regular in season three.

Smokescreen's an inexperienced trigger-happy optimistic with a fantastic ability to plan ahead, especially in split-seconds. Though, his overconfidence becomes a point of fault between him and his team.

Optimus & Magnus lacked personality, but ironically, that was part of their personalities.

and so on...

that we never saw them do stuff on their own outside of hanging out with the humans.


Bulkhead in "Armada" and to an extent "Toxicity."
Smokescreen in "Darkmount, NV," "Scattered," "Prey," and "Rebellion."
Cliffjumper in "Darkness Rising, Part 1"

Though, the whole point of the Autobots in this show is that they work together. They are in hiding from a giant group of dictators with thousands of brutes and warriors in their roster after all.

They also said how the Decepticons are more interesting and entertaining then the Autobots because of this.


Again, Ratchet, Bumblebee, Wheeljack, Bulkhead, and Smokescreen were very interesting and entertaining characters. Cliffjumper was too, which is why it's a shame they killed him so early. While I agree the Decepticons were more fun, when you think about it, the number of entertaining characters on either side are more balanced then others make them out to be.

Sabrblade wrote:When Smokescreen came into the picture is when I feel we got some really good interactions among the Autobots.


I concur, though "Loose Cannons" was a interesting episode for Autobot dynamic.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby kaijuguy19 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:39 pm

Again I guess it's because that after seeing the show in it's entiriety I'm beginning to look back at it. In a way most of the people who say that we don't see a lot of the Autobots doing things off the battle field or doing anything important enough on the show are somehow valid since I didn't see Arcee take an oil bath despite her talking about how much she loves on or that we don't know what Ratchet and Optimus do in their spare time other then stating the obvious mission at hand here. It's not the same like in Beast Wars and Animated where we see the case of Maximals actually do things that fits their character and not be epic all the time. Things that make them human and relatible like having an art hobby like with Animated bulkhead or Bumblebee playing hockey in Animated or Optimus loving history in the same show.

For the Autobots in Prime however the same people said that all of the past time the Autobots have are in a nutshell an afterthought with them not really being into what they're doing and not add anything to the character. There's also them saying that there's hardly any conflict between them other then Ratchet,Wheeljack and Magnus.

Then there's the Autobots being Hyprocrties as well.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:52 pm

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kaijuguy19 wrote:Again I guess it's because that after seeing the show in it's entiriety I'm beginning to look back at it. In a way most of the people who say that we don't see a lot of the Autobots doing things off the battle field or doing anything important enough on the show are somehow valid since I didn't see Arcee take an oil bath despite her talking about how much she loves on or that we don't know what Ratchet and Optimus do in their spare time other then stating the obvious mission at hand here.


I'm going to quote Arcee from "New Recruit" on this argument:

"There was a war going on."

In Animated, the Autobots were on the top of the pile (like the Decepticons are here), and had time to goof off and be themselves. But with a severe lack of resources and a need to stay covert and undercover, none of the Autobots could do anything for leisure very often.

It wasn't until Predacons Rising when the Autobots had won that we saw some of the Autobots "in their element," such as Bulkhead in charge of the construction effort. Though, that was short-lived with the Predacon Predicament and the return of Unicron.

Point being, there was no spare time for the Autobots in this series. They were near-hungry, poor, and on-the-run for most of the series, and that's the way it would realistically be.


There's also them saying that there's hardly any conflict between them other then Ratchet,Wheeljack and Magnus.


Ratchet-->Optimus Prime (for a while)
Wheeljack-->Ultra Magnus
Arcee-->Smokescreen
Wheeljack-->Optimus Prime
Bulkhead-->Wheeljack (vaguely)

Seems like Bumblebee's the only one who hasn't had any kind of conflict with any of his teammates.

Then there's the Autobots being Hyprocrties as well.


I never understood this argument. Can you elaborate on this, please?
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby kaijuguy19 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:16 am

PrymeStriker wrote:
I'm going to quote Arcee from "New Recruit" on this argument:

"There was a war going on."

In Animated, the Autobots were on the top of the pile (like the Decepticons are here), and had time to goof off and be themselves. But with a severe lack of resources and a need to stay covert and undercover, none of the Autobots could do anything for leisure very often.

It wasn't until Predacons Rising when the Autobots had won that we saw some of the Autobots "in their element," such as Bulkhead in charge of the construction effort. Though, that was short-lived with the Predacon Predicament and the return of Unicron.

Point being, there was no spare time for the Autobots in this series. They were near-hungry, poor, and on-the-run for most of the series, and that's the way it would realistically be.


Oh I get that all right believe me I do. I think it's just we didn't see them do the stuff that they did have time to with either the kids or by themselves enough to really get a sense of them having a life aside from fighting that's all. I agree that while yes the Autobots aren't perfect they aren't the worst I've seen. I was sort of shocked when I've heard that the japanese characters from RID while being one track were constantly on track and never boring and that both the RID and UT at least had the excuse to have one track characters in low budget shows unlike Prime having a higher budget had no excuse to mess up characters. I should also point that while the Maximals of Beast Wars were in many tight situations they still found time to do some hobbies and such to relax a lot of times during the show.

Ratchet-->Optimus Prime (for a while)
Wheeljack-->Ultra Magnus
Arcee-->Smokescreen
Wheeljack-->Optimus Prime
Bulkhead-->Wheeljack (vaguely)

Seems like Bumblebee's the only one who hasn't had any kind of conflict with any of his teammates.


Well I guess Bee did get ticked off at Smokscreen a tad in Minus one with the whole "How come you want to talk normally when people can understand you just as fine." comment but that didn't last long.

Then there's the Autobots being Hyprocrties as well.


I never understood this argument. Can you elaborate on this, please?


Sure thing. The same people I talked to talked about how the Autobots like Optimus for example preach on about not killling those who can't defend themselves nor slaughter Vehicons who aren't made for combat yet goes around killing off Vehicons in brutal fasions like Arcee twisting off the head of one and Bulkhead ripping out the insides of another as well as killing off the Predacons in he tubes in Evolution.

There's also the time Arcee went off towards Airachnid in Crossfire ignoring Optimus's command not to when in the past episodes like Partners and One shall Fall she learned that revenge was a bad thing and told Bee not to do it to Megatron then after Crossfire told Smokescreen not to be reckless and disobeying orders. Then there's the part in Minus One where Optimus allowed Ratchet to use a method of breaking open Soundwave that seems harsh.

Those are just some examples of why some people think the Autobots are hyprocrites due to their morals being contradicting as well as delving into morally quiestionable territory ye those isseus never get touched on thus making them self rightous.

Here's a thread that were talking about such things.

http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transform ... cites.html
Last edited by kaijuguy19 on Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:19 am

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It's TFW. What else should we expect from it but the lowest respect for this show? :roll: :P
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Shadowman » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:23 am

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kaijuguy19 wrote:Oh I get that all right believe me I do. I think it's just we didn't see them do the stuff that they did have time to with either the kids or by themselves enough to really get a sense of them having a life aside from fighting that's all. I agree that while yes the Autobots aren't perfect they aren't the worst I've seen. I was sort of shocked when I've heard that the japanese characters from RID while being one track were constantly on track and never boring and that both the RID and UT at least had the excuse to have one track characters in low budget shows unlike Prime having a higher budget had no excuse to mess up characters. I should also point that while the Maximals of Beast Wars were in many tight situations they still found time to do some hobbies and such to relax a lot of times during the show.


When you are on the losing end of a millenia-old war, and all of your allies can be counted on two hands, while your enemies seem to have an infinite supply of soldiers, you don't exactly have time to go out for dinner and a movie...

kaijuguy19 wrote:Sure thing. The same people I talked to talked about how the Autobots like Optimus for example preach on about not killling those who can't defend themselves nor slaughter Vehicons who aren't made for combat yet goes around killing off Vehicons in brutal fasions like Arcee twisting off the head of one and Bulkhead ripping out the insides of another


I don't think you know what "hypocritical" means, because "killing enemy combatants" certainly isn't the definition of it.

"Oh, but the vehicons are really weak and can't fight back!" Tell that to Cliffjumper.

kaijuguy19 wrote:as well as killing off the Predacons in he tubes in Evolution.


The two options they had were to nip that one in the bud, or give Megatron an army of Predacons. That's not hypocritical, that's just preventing the extinction of the human race.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:55 am

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kaijuguy19 wrote:Sure thing. The same people I talked to talked about how the Autobots like Optimus for example preach on about not killling those who can't defend themselves nor slaughter Vehicons who aren't made for combat yet goes around killing off Vehicons in brutal fasions like Arcee twisting off the head of one and Bulkhead ripping out the insides of another as well as killing off the Predacons in he tubes in Evolution.


Well, what Optimus said was that he/they did not believe in offing those who cannot defend themselves. However, the Vehicons the Autobots are seen constantly slaying and tearing apart are Vehicons who are attacking them in return. Not exactly "defenseless beings."

There's also the time Arcee went off towards Airachnid in Crossfire ignoring Optimus's command not to when in the past episodes like Partners and One shall Fall she learned that revenge was a bad thing and told Bee not to do it to Megatron then after Crossfire told Smokescreen not to be reckless and disobeying orders. Then there's the part in Minus One where Optimus allowed Ratchet to use a method of breaking open Soundwave that seems harsh.


All of these details are foggy to me, so I'm not going to defend 'nor argue them. I'll have to go re-watch some of these episodes.

Those are just some examples of why some people think the Autobots are hyprocrites due to their morals being contradicting as well as delving into morally quiestionable territory ye those isseus never get touched on thus making them self rightous.

Here's a thread that were talking about such things.

http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transform ... cites.html


Thanks for explaining that to me, though I don't agree with them. I don't agree with a lot of people on TFW. :roll:

Shadowman wrote:When you are on the losing end of a millenia-old war, and all of your allies can be counted on two hands, while your enemies seem to have an infinite supply of soldiers, you don't exactly have time to go out for dinner and a movie...


Exactly.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby TurboMMaster » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:54 am

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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:59 am

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With Transformers Prime done for, I thought it was appropriate for me to discuss this:

Am I the only one who thinks Transformers Prime was better than Beast Wars?

*cough* Yes *cough*

I mean, everyone holds Beast Wars to be the holy grail of Transformers cartoons, but when Transformers Prime ended and I was able to sum up the whole cartoon and go back and re-watch episodes, I find Prime to be a superior show.

I have to be careful not to type 'far superior.' To put in perspective, I think Prime deserves an A grade and Beast Wars deserves an A-. Here's why:

Beast Wars was a great show. Entertaining and fun characters, great animation, a fine story. But my biggest problem with Beast Wars is that they killed off characters for no particular reason other than to make room for new toys.

Transformers Prime didn't give a rats ass about their toyline until season three, and even then they ignored a lot about it.

People complain that Prime 'wasted characters' through death. The same can be said for Beast Wars. But the difference is, Prime's character deaths served a purpose to the plot or someone else's character development.

What purpose to the plot or someone else's character development did Terrorsaur and Scorponok's deaths serve? None. Nobody give a crap when they died and they ultimately glorified the new Fuzor.

Which, might I add, died for no particular reason at the end of the show anyway.

But almost everyone in Prime who died mattered.

- Cliffjumper's death was character development for Arcee (and later, indirectly, Miko and Wheeljack).
- Skyquake's death was to serve Dreadwing's (and later Starscream in a rather "domino" effect) character development
- Makeshift's death was useless. The only example.

- Breakdown's death was necessary to the plot, and really the only candidate with what characters they had to choose from at that time. Breakdown's body was found and put back together by MECH, who was used when Silas was crushed by his failed Nemesis Prime project, who in turn tried to join the Decepticons with his new body, who failed at Damocles and became an experiment for (Dark) Synthetic Energon, which ultimately resulted in the loss of the Insecticon army and therefore Knock Out had to turn over the project to Shockwave, who later discovered it could create cybermatter, who with Ratchet's help stabilized the formula, which ultimately revitalized Cybertron.
>:oP

- Hardshell's death was character development for Miko.
- Dreadwing's death was character development for Starscream.
- Optimus Prime's ultimate death was necessary for the story to finish given the circumstances.

Not-so-honorable mention:
- Tailgate and Seaspray were already dead.

Am I forgetting anyone?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly, the only thing wrong with Prime by series' end was that Breakdown & Bulkhead's rivalry and Airachnid's control over the Insecticons were not explained, though I have my own theory for the latter. Every surviving character was developed except for Optimus Prime and Soundwave. The former is, however, arguable, and the latter absent from the conclusion anyway.

Another "nitpick" I have about Beast Wars is how everyone got some sort of new upgrade each season. I know I'm exaggerating, but Prime only changed characters' looks for season three and the movie, and even that was only four characters. Beast Wars was double this number, and in some cases the models changed more than once.

I guess the best factor is that both shows worked their "upgrades" into the plot, though I just think Prime handled and controlled it a lot better, especially when both were up against toyline upgrades en masse.

I also think Prime was animated a lot better, with a lot more detail and very realistic motions. I also prefer Prime's aesthetic to Beast Wars, and so on with personal preferences.

I know I'm not alone on my opinion within the TFW2005 community (though the number is 33% in favor of Prime, and the more vocal members irrationally revile the show.), but I wanted to see if anyone here shared my vision?

P.S: It's been fun discussing Transformers Prime with you all these past three-to-four years. :D
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:22 pm

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Being killed off for someone else's benefit isn't typically an acceptable thing. It's basically what TV Tropes calls being "Stuffed into the Fridge", only minus the killer's intended insult factor.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Va'al » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:09 pm

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
*PLUG*

You should all check out the Art of Prime book, because reasons.

*END PLUG*
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby njb902 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:34 pm

Va'al wrote:*PLUG*

You should all check out the Art of Prime book, because reasons.

*END PLUG*


Sure, but it will cost ya a pic of your left eyebrow.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:04 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:Being killed off for someone else's benefit isn't typically an acceptable thing.


And being killed off for no reason other than to sell toys is acceptable? :???:
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:26 pm

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PrymeStriker wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Being killed off for someone else's benefit isn't typically an acceptable thing.


And being killed off for no reason other than to sell toys is acceptable? :???:
Where in my post did I say that?
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:46 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Being killed off for someone else's benefit isn't typically an acceptable thing.


And being killed off for no reason other than to sell toys is acceptable? :???:
Where in my post did I say that?


The point in my original post was that getting killed for the benefit of storytelling or another character's development is a better reason than being killed to sell some new toys.

Saying that the former was not acceptable and not recognizing the other half of the claim seemed like you were excusing all of the crap deaths in Beast Wars.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:56 am

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Being killed off for story progression, if handled well, is okay. Being killed off to create angst or turmoil for somebody else's character arc, however, is another case entirely.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:41 am

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Sabrblade wrote:Being killed off for story progression, if handled well, is okay.


Which is the case with a lot of deaths in Transformers: Prime, including Breakdown. :D

Sabrblade wrote:Being killed off to create angst or turmoil for somebody else's character arc, however, is another case entirely.


Ah, you're thinking of Cliffjumper and Skyquake.

Well, that is true, but without those two's deaths, we'd be with a lot of undeveloped characters.

Skyquake's death in relationship to Dreadwing wasn't really a bad thing. Without it, Dreadwing wouldn't have a motive to attack Starscream and therefore his questionable loyalty to Megatron wouldn't have been corrected. ;)

Same thing for Cliffjumper. Sure, it didn't do the best job of developing Arcee, but it did affect Miko in "Out of the Past" and shifted Wheeljack's "loner" arc from the others (most prominently Bulkhead) in "Plus One." On top of that, without Wheeljack warming up to the rest of the team after Arcee's talk, he probably wouldn't have gotten along with Ultra Magnus after "Evoltuion" (and vice versa), and then that would leave two more characters without development.

I agree that these two characters could have stuck around longer so that we'd care that they were gone, especially with season one being the exposition for the series, they could have given them more time before they were offed.

Nevertheless, they had to die.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:04 am

Motto: "FOR THE EARTH!!!"
Weapon: Saber Blade
PrymeStriker wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Being killed off for story progression, if handled well, is okay.


Which is the case with a lot of deaths in Transformers: Prime, including Breakdown. :D
Not when Breakdown's death was rife of wasted opportunities. Killing him off scrapped his story with Bulkhead, and when MECH got his corpse, MECH's own story got scrapped too shortly after.

PrymeStriker wrote:Skyquake's death in relationship to Dreadwing wasn't really a bad thing. Without it, Dreadwing wouldn't have a motive to attack Starscream and therefore his questionable loyalty to Megatron wouldn't have been corrected. ;)
At the time, Skyquake's death had nothing to do with Dreadwing since the Dreadwing character didn't exist yet. They killed him off just because.

PrymeStriker wrote:Same thing for Cliffjumper. Sure, it didn't do the best job of developing Arcee, but it did affect Miko in "Out of the Past" and shifted Wheeljack's "loner" arc from the others (most prominently Bulkhead) in "Plus One." On top of that, without Wheeljack warming up to the rest of the team after Arcee's talk, he probably wouldn't have gotten along with Ultra Magnus after "Evoltuion" (and vice versa), and then that would leave two more characters without development.
See, you're looking at things from way down the line after the writers decided to go back and build upon things they did before. I'm looking at them as they happened, when the writers did not have the hindsight they would have later.

You can't tell me that Arcee couldn't have developed if the Cliffjumper murder hadn't occurred. The makers admitted that the only reason they did it was because they wanted to get away with something like that, for pure shock value. Take Cliffjumper out of the equation entirely, as though he wasn't there at all, and the dread factor of the pilot is diminished. Arcee would still have her past turmoil with Airachnid killing Tailgate, so that chip on her shoulder still remains.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:32 am

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Sabrblade wrote:Not when Breakdown's death was rife of wasted opportunities. Killing him off scrapped his story with Bulkhead,


For the most part. Only their history was scrapped. "Operation: BREAKDOWN" showed that Breakdown and Bulkhead can work together tactically.

and when MECH got his corpse, MECH's own story got scrapped too shortly after.


So what? MECH had two seasons to stretch their story, and their arc was fulfilled. They wanted to make a weapon of mass destruction, so when they saw vehicles that could transform into robots, their time was devoted to doing that. They scanned Optimus' model, captured Breakdown, worked with Airachnid, saw how they scanned vehicle modes, and were able to create Nemesis Prime. What else did they want to do that they didn't end up doing besides being "determined to rule the world?"

They were done with MECH. Hell, MECH was done with MECH.

At the time, Skyquake's death had nothing to do with Dreadwing since the Dreadwing character didn't exist yet. They killed him off just because.


How do you know this? :???:

See, you're looking at things from way down the line after the writers decided to go back and build upon things they did before. I'm looking at them as they happened.


From what I recall, the writers had three years of story planned from the get-go.

Besides, if you look at every story from the events that happen alone, then you're gonna end up with a lot of crappy stories. You don't just read a random chapter of a book and then complain that nothing makes sense and the story is ruined, do you? The same applies to a TV show like this.

Everything happens for a reason.

You can't tell me that Arcee couldn't have developed if the Cliffjumper murder hadn't occurred.


What?

PrymeStriker wrote:Same thing for Cliffjumper. Sure, it didn't do the best job of developing Arcee, but it did affect Miko in "Out of the Past" and shifted Wheeljack's "loner" arc from the others (most prominently Bulkhead) in "Plus One." On top of that, without Wheeljack warming up to the rest of the team after Arcee's talk, he probably wouldn't have gotten along with Ultra Magnus after "Evoltuion" (and vice versa),


When did I say that Arcee wouldn't have been able to develop without Cliffjumper's death?

Take Cliffjumper out of the equation entirely, as though he wasn't there at all, and the dread factor of the pilot is diminished. Arcee would still have her past turmoil with Airachnid killing Tailgate, so that chip on her shoulder still remains.


Not arguing that. But, the fact that Arcee lost two partners was part of the reason Wheeljack's lone-wolf character arc was developed. Especially when Wheeljack had two partners of his own that he was drifting from.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby Shadowman » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:17 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Killing a character off just for the sake of another character's development is about as bad as killing them off just to make room on the shelves for new toys. It completely wastes all their prior development, and completely cheapens the character. All they become is a footnote in another character's story.
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Re: The Official Transformers: Prime Discussion Thread

Postby PrymeStriker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:36 am

Motto: "Brilliant"
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Shadowman wrote:Killing a character off just for the sake of another character's development is about as bad as killing them off just to make room on the shelves for new toys. It completely wastes all their prior development, and completely cheapens the character.


Skyquake, Cliffjumper, and Hardshell had prior development and were something of value? :???:
Last edited by PrymeStriker on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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