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This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Autobahn Prime » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:50 am

Motto: ""There's no such thing as an enemy: only potential allies.""
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I'd like to first point out that this is from the point of view of a 16 year old boy, just thought that might be a bit relevant given the topic.

(SPOILERS) I go into a bit more detail on specific scenes so, be warned if you haven't seen it yet(SPOILERS)


The fact that they had Que begging as he died did make it worse than it could've been. I think it would've been less sad/scary for kids if it just panned away and you just HEARD the gunfire. They've done similiar things in kids movies all the time. For example there was a scene in Mulan where 2 soldiers were captured, one was let free to deliver a message and then they subtly implied that the Huns killed the other soldier.

Or they just could've just not have had him die AS he begged. Soundwave could've silenced him, or he could've just stayed quiet. But in general, it wasn't that bad since he was a robot. Flying gears and oil is far less mentally scarring than guts and blood.

The execution scene when Que died didn't bug me nearly as much as Prime just straight up murdering. I mean, Decepticons are evil, death is what they're good at. But Prime's line "kill them all" and then he, the supposed HERO, killed a whining Sentinal in cold bloo--err... energon. But, yet again, they could've fixed the scene with any of the suggestions I mentioned above. I was happy they at least gave him a somewhat clean death unlike everyone else in these movies. They all die in some way that their heads go flying off into the horizon in thousands of pieces. Sentinal was just "bang, bang, dead".

And then there's the Megatron death! Megatron offered to make a treaty! He had NOTHING left to fight for once Sentinal was dead. All of his high-ranking soldiers were dead. His forces were reduced to a few protoforms and in the TF Movies universe, an army of protoforms in like bringing knives to a gun fight. That one really pissed me off especially since it was Prime. But in general, the Transformers deaths weren't that bad since they were in fact not human, as I previously stated.

Then there were the human deaths... uhm... some of them were a bit much. Like that scene when Laserbeak tricks a little girl then kills her parents? That was just scary, but luckily that wasn't graphic and no others were too graphic either. All of human deaths just made me go "oh look, he died." instead of "Oh crap, he died!!".

So in general, it's a bit much for anyone that is younger than like 13 or 14. But it isn't limited to them. I heard some fully grown woman scream and grown men show their shocked reactions, so it all depends on the veiwer, young or not.
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby dirk2243 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:15 am

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
Autobahn Prime wrote:The execution scene when Que died didn't bug me nearly as much as Prime just straight up murdering. I mean, Decepticons are evil, death is what they're good at. But Prime's line "kill them all" and then he, the supposed HERO, killed a whining Sentinal in cold bloo--err... energon. But, yet again, they could've fixed the scene with any of the suggestions I mentioned above. I was happy they at least gave him a somewhat clean death unlike everyone else in these movies. They all die in some way that their heads go flying off into the horizon in thousands of pieces. Sentinal was just "bang, bang, dead".

And then there's the Megatron death! Megatron offered to make a treaty! He had NOTHING left to fight for once Sentinal was dead. All of his high-ranking soldiers were dead. His forces were reduced to a few protoforms and in the TF Movies universe, an army of protoforms in like bringing knives to a gun fight. That one really pissed me off especially since it was Prime. But in general, the Transformers deaths weren't that bad since they were in fact not human, as I previously stated.



I think Prime's Kill em all line was beyond justified. Sentinel Shoots Ironhide in the back! And then Starsream goes and destroys the shuttle. "thinking they were in there". Decepticons killed plenty in the city to "show the humans a lesson".

Yeah, Megs offers a "sorta truce" at the end, but do you trust someone who has stabbed you in the back and was all for the bringing Cybertron to Earth, letting slave labor do his work? Megs started the war.....Prime finished it for him. (Bay could have chosen other endings but this is what he did.)
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Autobot032 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:57 pm

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Am I one of only a handful of people who get it? Seriously? Can no one take off their rose colored glasses and see the truth here?

Upon coming into the city of Chicago, Epps and Sam look around and see devastation as far as the eye can see. They drive past families that are bloodied, shaken, crying, lost.

They see toppled structures, heavily damaged buildings, skeletons of those who were vaporized, without mercy.

Starscream, and the world, thought the Autobots were dead when the Xanthium blew up. The Decepticons, as Prime put it, would never leave Earth alone.

Sentinel MURDERED Ironhide onscreen, the twins offscreen. (They were in a cut of the film and then removed. Pieces of them can be seen in one shot. So, to me, they were in the film, outside of their vehicle mode.)

Prime considers this HIS planet, HIS home, and us? HIS people. Prime had compassion in the first film. He was angry and frustrated in the second, but he never left us. He fulfilled his destiny. This one? We're one race now. NEST showed the soldiers and the Autobots as one. Even Mearing didn't condescend to Optimus. When she thought they died, a wave of sadness and hopelessness came over her, and it was visible on screen.

The Wreckers share his sentiment. Leadfoot said "We ain't goin' anywhere!"

Sam saved Prime's life in the first one. Died to save him in the second one. Was the only one to believe in him in the third one.

Sam and humanity truly are special to Optimus and the Autobots, we've given them a home. Optimus has never, ever forgotten that, or taken it lightly.

So when he said "We will kill them all!" he was angry, and justifiably so.

Sentinel cut off his arm and severely beat him, while stabbing him a second time, and all of this after he masterminded a plan to use US as slave labor and rip our planet apart.

Megatron's villainy is well known. The plan with Sentinel, the sun harvester, The Fallen, the execution of countless Chicagoans...you get the idea. Oh and that little thing about stabbing Prime through the back and blasting his spark out of his chest...

Megatron wounds Sentinel and then proceeds to beat him, to show him that he is no one's underling and says "This is MY planet!" (and yes, he is meaning Earth)

As soon as Cybertron is destroyed and Megatron is desperate and all of his hope is lost, he says "No! We need a truce! All I want is to be back in charge. Besides, who would YOU be without ME, Prime?"

To which Prime says "Time to find out."

It wasn't a truce! It was an offer of dictatorship! Megatron was claiming our planet as his own, as a piece of property. The Autobots claim it and our people as home, as one race, not one over the other. NEST? A family. Mearing's basically their Mama Bear and when it came down to it, she was there to make sure NEST was alright.

It was not a truce, not even in the slightest. It was a perfect example of G1 Megatron's motto: Peace through tyranny.

Sentinel was executed partially out of emotional persuasion, I mean, he did murder Prime's second hand man, but he was also a danger. Like Mearing said, he was the Einstein of their race, and his ideas and technological advances put Q's practical ideas to shame. He was dangerous and would've killed Optimus if given the chance. He already proved he was capable of killing humans and had no regard for our lives.

You don't allow a monster like that to live. You can't contain that kind of evil, it will find a way to get out, sooner or later.

Sentinel's execution was just and necessary. If people can't see that, then I think they need glasses. This isn't an opinion, this is all fact. This played out on the screen, right in front of our eyes.

How many violations and monstrosities must be committed before we say "Okay. Off 'em."?

Like Shadowman said: "You kill him Seal Team 6 style"
NOTE: Realize that I am not a perfect Christian, nor do I profess to be. I apologize if anyone's ever offended by me, I'm not perfect. Don't hold my posts and opinions against other Christians.
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Autobahn Prime » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:19 pm

Motto: ""There's no such thing as an enemy: only potential allies.""
Weapon: Double-Barreled Plasma Shell Shotgun
I wasn't saying any of it wasn't justified I was just saying parts of it could've been handled differently. The part where Prime said "kill them all" just didn't sit right with me because it was... well, it was Prime.

It's kind of like hearing Superman or Batman say "kill them all". It's probably justifiable but it's just weird because they've never done that in the past. Same thing with the execution. It's not that it happened that bugged me, it's who did it. Just seemed out of his character which has been set in stone since the 80's. "He'll kill you but only if you get in his way." Then all of a sudden it was "He'll go out of his way to kill you."

And the other point is that it's not whether or not what he did is justified, but is it something a child should be seeing. My main point was it might be a bit much for a child to see their hero give a kill order and murder his mentor, regardless of how right it was.
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby shamone » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:02 pm

the issue was that this is a movie, where we expect heroes to be exemplary. We dont expect our heroes to be executioneers.

Im not saying prime is wrong to execute sentinal and prime, just that it doesnt fit with our movie ideals of what heroes are.

for those of us brought up in hollywood tropes, we want megs and prime to meet in an epic clash where the heroes vanquishes the villian in a fair or a mismatched (for the villiam) fight, not a beheading of a weakened and broken foe
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Lastjustice » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:14 pm

Motto: ""Laws only exist when there's someone there to enforce them.""
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shamone wrote:the issue was that this is a movie, where we expect heroes to be exemplary. We dont expect our heroes to be executioneers.

Im not saying prime is wrong to execute sentinal and prime, just that it doesnt fit with our movie ideals of what heroes are.

for those of us brought up in hollywood tropes, we want megs and prime to meet in an epic clash where the heroes vanquishes the villian in a fair or a mismatched (for the villiam) fight, not a beheading of a weakened and broken foe


May be doesn't fit your mind but it works in mine. War is hell and I expect there be consequences of violence. In the magic of saturday morning cartoons no one dies and ever gets hurt seriously. In these films death happens often and I expect the heroes to put down rabid dogs. At some point enough is enough, and the justice system has no way of handling these threats.

Real life soldiers kill enemies on the battlefield and walk around with a sentiment simliar what prime said upon coming to a battlefield...lets kil em all. that's their job, they re soldiers. (like Lennox said in the first film, you're a soldier now.) You do what has to be done so those who aren't strong enough to defend themselves never have to see these horrors. To defend against all enemies both foreign and domestic. I wouldn't call one who does that anything else besides hero.

This heroes never kill anyone is for the birds. Every single major comic book character has offed a villain at some point in their careers. People who commit violence but aren't willing to deal with the consequences are cowards. You draw your sword you best be ready to draw blood. You never point a weapon at something you don't wish to destroy.

Ultimately Prime barely escape this battle with his life. He wasn't in much better shape than either of his foes. He just had a moment to gather himself while Sentinel was getting thrashed by megatron, and I'd say more heart to push thru his injuries than either of them.

Was it the way I'd ended the film...absolutely not. Nothing in these films will ever be spot on exactly what we dreamed, but I don't think hollywood has enough money make the film in most fans heads hehe.
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Optimus Primevil » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:32 pm

wasn't the topic title supposedly the japanese producers reaction to the first movie? anyone got proof of that?
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:48 am

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Autobot032 wrote:Am I one of only a handful of people who get it? Seriously? Can no one take off their rose colored glasses and see the truth here?



Your not the only one. Though i cut out most of your post, I've repeated nearly everything you said several times in more than a couple threads since the movie's release. Quite frankly i don't understand how people can't understand Optimus's behavior. As far as the "truce" megatron offered; there is no defense. There is not one single shred of evidence in the last 3 movies that suggests that his "truce' was sincere, or trustworthy. It is indefensible.

But the biggest thing that kills me in this whole debate, is that we, the fans, asked for all this. We asked for a darker more serious movie. We got it and look what happens.
To be fair though no movie is going to be perfect. Had the ending happened like the book with megs and Optimus kissing and making up, i would probably be the one bitching right now. 8-}
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Optimus Primevil » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:56 am

so it's like beast machines all over again? the thing about being too dark but if it was light fan would be mad that it ain't 'mature'
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:15 am

Motto: "If it first you don't succeed,.. Sky diving is not for you!"
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Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's like beast machines all over again? the thing about being too dark but if it was light fan would be mad that it ain't 'mature'


And thats the fandom for ya. The way i look at it is its kind of like upgrading your car for racing...
you indentify a weak spot in the drivtrain and fix it. Only problem is you didn't nessasarly fix the problem as whole, but mearly moved it around. For example..
If the differential on my Mustang is the weak spot, so I replace it with a lager, stronger unit. While the rear end might be bullet proof, the next componet thats doomed for failure is the axels. once those are fixed, now the transmission is the weak point etc.
In this case, the movie was more serious and dark, but for some it was to serious and to dark for kids.
we got to see our characters in a new light, but for some the light wasn't bright enough.
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby Optimus Primevil » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:22 am

for some there is no light at all...unless the character models are g1 accurate


and if bay actually did that we'd still get

"ratchet and ironhide are not gun platforms!!!"

i didn't say anything about cartoon accurate
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Re: This is supposed to be a kids franchise, isn't it?

Postby shamone » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:15 pm

Lastjustice wrote:
shamone wrote:the issue was that this is a movie, where we expect heroes to be exemplary. We dont expect our heroes to be executioneers.

Im not saying prime is wrong to execute sentinal and prime, just that it doesnt fit with our movie ideals of what heroes are.

for those of us brought up in hollywood tropes, we want megs and prime to meet in an epic clash where the heroes vanquishes the villian in a fair or a mismatched (for the villiam) fight, not a beheading of a weakened and broken foe


May be doesn't fit your mind but it works in mine. War is hell and I expect there be consequences of violence. In the magic of saturday morning cartoons no one dies and ever gets hurt seriously. In these films death happens often and I expect the heroes to put down rabid dogs. At some point enough is enough, and the justice system has no way of handling these threats.

Real life soldiers kill enemies on the battlefield and walk around with a sentiment simliar what prime said upon coming to a battlefield...lets kil em all. that's their job, they re soldiers. (like Lennox said in the first film, you're a soldier now.) You do what has to be done so those who aren't strong enough to defend themselves never have to see these horrors. To defend against all enemies both foreign and domestic. I wouldn't call one who does that anything else besides hero.

This heroes never kill anyone is for the birds. Every single major comic book character has offed a villain at some point in their careers. People who commit violence but aren't willing to deal with the consequences are cowards. You draw your sword you best be ready to draw blood. You never point a weapon at something you don't wish to destroy.

Ultimately Prime barely escape this battle with his life. He wasn't in much better shape than either of his foes. He just had a moment to gather himself while Sentinel was getting thrashed by megatron, and I'd say more heart to push thru his injuries than either of them.

Was it the way I'd ended the film...absolutely not. Nothing in these films will ever be spot on exactly what we dreamed, but I don't think hollywood has enough money make the film in most fans heads hehe.



its not about not killing, and i idnt say that, its about justified killing.

You are very incorrect if thats what how you view soldiers, there sole purpose is to go out and kill the enemy - thats a depressing and incorrect way of looking at the way things work

and this is evidence of that, if when ordered they cannot do it

In one war-time study, a Brigadier General found that "only 15 to 20 [percent] would take any part with their weapons." And that this was consistently true, "whether the action was spread over a day, or two days, or three." Eighty percent of the soldiers would not fire, due to nothing more than their innate desire to not take a human life. We also know that the vast majority of shots fired in battle, miss.
It's hard to aim at a man and pull the trigger. Even in firing squads, it's standard practice to give some soldiers blanks or unloaded rifles to diffuse the responsibility of killing amongst all men equally. This actually makes the soldiers more likely to pull the trigger, thinking their gun might not be loaded, as well as easing the men's consciences after the fact by letting them believe there's a chance they didn't actually kill the victim.


Read more: The Biggest Star Wars Plot Hole, Explained By Science | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_18858_th ... z1RjddfxyZ
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