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Not to belabor the point, but nothing is really "lost" in scalping. There is a limited amount of any product on the market. A bona fide scalper does not take any of that product off of the market, they merely purchase it out of the retail market. (Maybe investors take it off the market...but how many people are really hoarding figures to unload twenty years from now? Scalpers need a fast turnaround to maxmize profits.)

Assumably, the goods a scalper purchases will end up in the hands of a collector, or a kid, or some other consumer who wants the product for its own sake. So nothing is "lost."

All that happens to collectors is that some of them discover they have been outbid or priced out of something they wanted. Why get mad at someone with more disposable income paying more money for something he or she really, really wants?

If you never get a toy because of scalpers, all that means is that someone else was willing to pay more money than you. I don't see how that is "overvaluing" the product. If they thought it was worth $20 and you only thought it was worth $12, then they valued it more than you did (even if you desired it more).

But, for all you know, the scalper is selling it to someone who doesn't have the time to get to the toy store or have access to a decent toy aisle. For a consumer who would have to pay more than $20 total in terms of travel or time lost, $20 suddenly seems like a pretty good deal. Or maybe they just have a kid who really wants the toy, and being the big hero that got him his favorite character on his birthday creates added value. You aren't just paying for the cost of plastic and shipping...you are paying for what that plastic and shipping represents.

So those who purchase from a scalper aren't "overvaluing" the figure. They are considering the total cost to themselves and the total benefit of the product, and they decide that the scalper's "finder's fee" is cheaper.

Plus, the difficulty in finding figures has led to innovative alternatives, such as online pre-orders. When retailers realize there is a population of people frustrated with the prices caused by scalping, they react and try to find a way of cutting into the scalpers' market. It's beauty in motion.

You can get any toy you want in this age of eBay and BBTS...you just have to be willing to pay for it.

(For the record, I'm a total bottom feeder and only buy transformers at TRU sales or at Marshalls.)

Tresob wrote:Not to belabor the point, but nothing is really "lost" in scalping. There is a limited amount of any product on the market. A bona fide scalper does not take any of that product off of the market, they merely purchase it out of the retail market. (Maybe investors take it off the market...but how many people are really hoarding figures to unload twenty years from now? Scalpers need a fast turnaround to maxmize profits.)

Assumably, the goods a scalper purchases will end up in the hands of a collector, or a kid, or some other consumer who wants the product for its own sake. So nothing is "lost."

Yes. More of a collector's money is lost. If I wanted a figure that was available at mass retail for $12 but couldn't get it because it was scalped before I had a chance to and then had to pay $20 to get it, I lost $8.

Tresbob wrote:All that happens to collectors is that some of them discover they have been outbid or priced out of something they wanted. Why get mad at someone with more disposable income paying more money for something he or she really, really wants?

If you never get a toy because of scalpers, all that means is that someone else was willing to pay more money than you. I don't see how that is "overvaluing" the product. If they thought it was worth $20 and you only thought it was worth $12, then they valued it more than you did (even if you desired it more).

Perhaps you aren't clear about what I'm saying. I don't fault a collector for buying from a scalper if that is what they choose to do. #1 I fault the collector if they choose to buy from a scalper and then complain about how they got scalped after they made the decision to make the purchase knowing full well what they were doing. #2 In the case of being outbid or priced out by someone, that doesn't apply. The scalper is paying the same price that I would be paying because we are getting the figures from the same place. How is anyone being out bid by a scalper when they are buying the figures from retail just like everybody else is trying to? #3 None of what you said about the collector over-valueing the figure applies to what I said. It isn't the collector who over-values the figure, its the scalper. Its the very nature of how they profit. They buy figures for $12, creates a false sense of supply and demand, and charges $20 knowing that they were only worth $12 strictly for the sense of profit.

Like I said, you can spin it however you want in your brain but the facts are the collector's lose money because of scalpers and I would argue that scalping certainly does it part to ruin, what I consider to be, an otherwise fun hobby. I highly doubt that you would be so apathetic to this issue if we were talking about a life necessity as opposed to some toys. If somebody came along and bought up all of the world's food, not for the purpose of need and consumption for themselves, but soley for the purpose of selling the food back to you at a higher price than what you could have gotten it for yourself and put you in the position of being forced to pay the higher prices or not eat at all, I bet you'd be in the pack of people raising the "BS" flag and crying foul. I bet noone would hear you saying that spending more money and people making more profit is a good thing then.

Like I said from the beginning, for me its a matter of principle. People have the right to scalp and people have the right to buy from scalpers. I don't like the practice and I think it ruins the hobby so I do what I can to not be involved. I would rather not own a figure than buy it from a scalper.

Others don't feel the same way as I do and thats fine. But if people buy from scalpers then they shouldn't have the right to complain about scalping later. And if people want scalping to go away, then they shouldn't buy from scalpers.

joesaysso wrote:

Tresob wrote:Not to belabor the point, but nothing is really "lost" in scalping. There is a limited amount of any product on the market. A bona fide scalper does not take any of that product off of the market, they merely purchase it out of the retail market. (Maybe investors take it off the market...but how many people are really hoarding figures to unload twenty years from now? Scalpers need a fast turnaround to maxmize profits.)

Assumably, the goods a scalper purchases will end up in the hands of a collector, or a kid, or some other consumer who wants the product for its own sake. So nothing is "lost."

Yes. More of a collector's money is lost. If I wanted a figure that was available at mass retail for $12 but couldn't get it because it was scalped before I had a chance to and then had to pay $20 to get it, I lost $8.

Tresbob wrote:All that happens to collectors is that some of them discover they have been outbid or priced out of something they wanted. Why get mad at someone with more disposable income paying more money for something he or she really, really wants?

If you never get a toy because of scalpers, all that means is that someone else was willing to pay more money than you. I don't see how that is "overvaluing" the product. If they thought it was worth $20 and you only thought it was worth $12, then they valued it more than you did (even if you desired it more).

Perhaps you aren't clear about what I'm saying. I don't fault a collector for buying from a scalper if that is what they choose to do. #1 I fault the collector if they choose to buy from a scalper and then complain about how they got scalped after they made the decision to make the purchase knowing full well what they were doing. #2 In the case of being outbid or priced out by someone, that doesn't apply. The scalper is paying the same price that I would be paying because we are getting the figures from the same place. How is anyone being out bid by a scalper when they are buying the figures from retail just like everybody else is trying to? #3 None of what you said about the collector over-valueing the figure applies to what I said. It isn't the collector who over-values the figure, its the scalper. Its the very nature of how they profit. They buy figures for $12, creates a false sense of supply and demand, and charges $20 knowing that they were only worth $12 strictly for the sense of profit.

Like I said, you can spin it however you want in your brain but the facts are the collector's lose money because of scalpers and I would argue that scalping certainly does it part to ruin, what I consider to be, an otherwise fun hobby. I highly doubt that you would be so apathetic to this issue if we were talking about a life necessity as opposed to some toys. If somebody came along and bought up all of the world's food, not for the purpose of need and consumption for themselves, but soley for the purpose of selling the food back to you at a higher price than what you could have gotten it for yourself and put you in the position of being forced to pay the higher prices or not eat at all, I bet you'd be in the pack of people raising the "BS" flag and crying foul. I bet noone would hear you saying that spending more money and people making more profit is a good thing then.

Like I said from the beginning, for me its a matter of principle. People have the right to scalp and people have the right to buy from scalpers. I don't like the practice and I think it ruins the hobby so I do what I can to not be involved. I would rather not own a figure than buy it from a scalper.

Others don't feel the same way as I do and thats fine. But if people buy from scalpers then they shouldn't have the right to complain about scalping later. And if people want scalping to go away, then they shouldn't buy from scalpers.

the deluxes are going for 16 now ,and they are liable to increase them more later this year. voyagers are going from 20 to 23 now. the price inflation is getting out of hand. scalping is also contributing that the retailers are increasing their prices as well.

SpacerAM2 wrote:the deluxes are going for 16 now ,and they are liable to increase them more later this year. voyagers are going from 20 to 23 now. the price inflation is getting out of hand. scalping is also contributing that the retailers are increasing their prices as well.

I don't know if I agree with that. Ultimately, Tresob was right about manufactures and retailers being helped by scalpers. At the end of the day, scalpers walk into a store and pay full price for a bunch of figures. As I said earlier, the manufacturers and retailers set their prices based on what an acceptable profit margin is based on what price will get the figures sold. All of the profit that Hasbro has decided is acceptable is being made off of the scalpers. Then the scalper turnaround and sell the figures to collectors for more profit. I can't say that I know specific numbers but I'd be willing to bet that in most cases, scalpers make more profit off of figures that they sell than Hasbro does.

At any rate, I doubt Hasbro cares specifically who buys their figures as long as they get bought. When it comes to scalping, everybody wins except us the collectors. I would say that scalping is not impacting the price point from Hasbro. More likely, increased production and transportation costs are driving up the prices of the figures more than anything.

I should correct my argument. Something is lost in scalping, only it's not really a "thing." What is lost is the pleasure that a consumer derives from discovering an item in a store for themselves. I imagine quite a few of us get a little dopamine rush when we find that toy on the shelf that wasn't there before.

So if your interest is more in the thrill of finding something, then, yes, scalping does deprive collectors of that experiential value. That also is a point specifically about TRU, rather than a tangent about economic theory.

That being said, I don't agree that a consumer really "loses" eight dollars when they buy at a higher price, because the consumer obviously thought the $20 was worth less to them than the toy. You only buy a toy if you think it has more value than the $20 in your pocket. If you thought the $20 was more valuable, you wouldn't have parted with it. Obviously, the give up the money, but you said yourself that consumers have no right to complain if they buy from a scalper.

I'm also not sure I agree with the analogy about foodstuffs. I would reassert that a blackmarket only arises when the retail market undervalues its product, even if it is food. Usually things like charity kick in to provide food to those who can't afford it. Or, in the case of toys, think about Toys for Tots. There you have people willingly paying retail to donate toys to people who can't afford it.

The only real difference between "retail" and "scalping" is scale.

What's lost is the opportunity to own something for someone who is on a budget and can't afford to pay scalpers prices.
This is fact which is why scalping is illegal when it comes to necessary items like food, gasoline etc.
For a toy, it's ok if you are priced out of the market, it's just a toy and you dont need it, but make no mistake something is lost...it's just that because its a toy its ok that its lost. It's really a shame and frustrating getting priced out of things, and yes, they are overvalued often. Not by the buyer, but by all the sellers who all have the same overpriced items on ebay that the masses aren't buying because they are overvalued. Then same buyer cant buy it at the store because all of the "oportunists" have them on ebay, many times acquired through unfair, unscrupulous practice.
Legal....yet borderline pretty sucky.

GuyIncognito wrote:The only real difference between "retail" and "scalping" is scale.

Well I suppose thats not totally wrong, I think thats a very vague way of looking at it. On one hand, I'm giving my money to the people who made the product. I am supporting them so that they may continue to put out products in line with this hobby that I enjoy.

On the other hand, I am giving my money to a person whose only goal is to rip me off for his/her own personal gain. He or she will never do anything now or in the future to further feed my hobby. If anything, my hobby would be slowed. Since I would have to pay more per figure, I would now be able to afford less figures.

I would rather enjoy the experience of finding a hot figure on the store shelves and pay hasbro and the retailers for their services than pay somebody else to rip me off.