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Shadowman wrote:

Dagon wrote:What I was saying at first was that the good/bad sides of this particular metaphor can't just be assigned along faction lines because from medium to medium the lines of good and bad start to blur, with the Megatron Origin story as my example. Depending even on how you interpret the individual TF continuities, regardless of what voice over narration there may be, either side can be viewed as being the good guys. Blanket adherence to a "they are good, the other is bad" philosophy is just stupid.

The idea of the lines between good and evil blurred falls flat when you realize the kinds of things Megatron does or has condoned in order to reach his goals. For instance, attempting to wipe out the human race, or rendering his own homeworld uninhabitable simply because he wanted power, or more power, depending on the continuity. If you're going to use Megatron Origin as an example, in the -tion series, he has a specifically laid-out 6-step plan to ensuring global devastation, which involves as much bloodshed as possible.

Even in Exodus and War for Cybertron, where his goal was actually quite noble (Abolishing the caste system, a goal that most Autobots, including Optimus, agreed with) ended up being distorted over time until it was basically a new goal entirely. (Abolishing free will)

So while the lines between good and evil are normally a point of perspective, that sure as hell doesn't apply to Megatron. To use traditional character alignment, he is, at his nicest, Lawful Evil. (He's even directly quoted on that page!)

Well, going with the -tion series, if that is (there's no reason to think it isn't) the same Megatron as the Megatron of Origins, then his chosen method of the 6 step plan is a pattern of learned behavior. He has learned that violence ultimately is the only thing that will get people to listen to him; even the 'peace loving' Autobots in Origin were only interested in him because he was perpetrating violent actions.
As for Peace through Tyrany, Megatron isn't saying anything that the Autobots aren't. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, but Prime can justify killing Decepticons by saying they're barbarians that don't deserve something (life, freedom) that they don't themselves value.
Also, the line doesn't blur or fall based on the actions or things he's condoned, any more than saying that attaining freedom by any means necessary is admirable. What we have is two sides who essentially agree to tolerate certain amounts of "evil" or immoral deeds so long as the ultimate result is something beneficial to the group. If Cybertronians agree to be subjugated under Megatron so as to acchieve what they want or believe in, then it's not evil. Remember, 'evil' is a quality that is applied by others, not self applied. Megatron is evil to Prime and his guys.....I doubt Starscream and company sit back and think that Megatron is evil. If they elect to be ruled through fear and pain, that is their choice, as Megatron also never made people follow him, unless we feel the need to talk about Inferno's reprogramming in Energon. And really, let's not.


It's good debating with you Shadowman. You're a lot of fun! Can we keep doing it?

Dagon wrote:Well, going with the -tion series, if that is (there's no reason to think it isn't) the same Megatron as the Megatron of Origins, then his chosen method of the 6 step plan is a pattern of learned behavior. He has learned that violence ultimately is the only thing that will get people to listen to him; even the 'peace loving' Autobots in Origin were only interested in him because he was perpetrating violent actions.

That doesn't justify anything. He's not a child, he knows he has a choice in the matter. And destroying entire civilizations for attention is probably worse than doing it for power.

Dagon wrote:As for Peace through Tyrany, Megatron isn't saying anything that the Autobots aren't. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, but Prime can justify killing Decepticons by saying they're barbarians that don't deserve something (life, freedom) that they don't themselves value.

Um, no. Autobots believe in Peace through Peace. And they justify killing Decepticons as protecting themselves and, in most cases, humanity. To put it in human perspective, all of us have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Until you start committing crimes, then those same rights are null and void for you.

Dagon wrote:Also, the line doesn't blur or fall based on the actions or things he's condoned, any more than saying that attaining freedom by any means necessary is admirable. What we have is two sides who essentially agree to tolerate certain amounts of "evil" or immoral deeds so long as the ultimate result is something beneficial to the group.

And yet it resulted in a massive civil war that destroyed one planet and spilled over onto many more. All because Megatron wanted power.

Dagon wrote:If Cybertronians agree to be subjugated under Megatron so as to acchieve what they want or believe in, then it's not evil.

None of them agreed to it. That's why they're at war.

Dagon wrote:Remember, 'evil' is a quality that is applied by others, not self applied. Megatron is evil to Prime and his guys.....I doubt Starscream and company sit back and think that Megatron is evil. If they elect to be ruled through fear and pain, that is their choice, as Megatron also never made people follow him, unless we feel the need to talk about Inferno's reprogramming in Energon. And really, let's not.

Okay. We could talk about the Constructicon's reprogramming, and how Megatron used them to raze and entire city.

Shadowman wrote:

Dagon wrote:Well, going with the -tion series, if that is (there's no reason to think it isn't) the same Megatron as the Megatron of Origins, then his chosen method of the 6 step plan is a pattern of learned behavior. He has learned that violence ultimately is the only thing that will get people to listen to him; even the 'peace loving' Autobots in Origin were only interested in him because he was perpetrating violent actions.

That doesn't justify anything. He's not a child, he knows he has a choice in the matter. And destroying entire civilizations for attention is probably worse than doing it for power.

Right, he's not a child. He chose his methods because he knows they work. I don't recall any Megatron sitting around and asking others to feel sorry for him because he didn't know better, and that he should be let off the hook. Sniveling, 80s super-villian-got-caught stuff really shouldn't count. I'm hoping we avoid the trappings of the form here.

Dagon wrote:As for Peace through Tyrany, Megatron isn't saying anything that the Autobots aren't. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, but Prime can justify killing Decepticons by saying they're barbarians that don't deserve something (life, freedom) that they don't themselves value.

Um, no. Autobots believe in Peace through Peace. And they justify killing Decepticons as protecting themselves and, in most cases, humanity. To put it in human perspective, all of us have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Until you start committing crimes, then those same rights are null and void for you.

Only if it's justifable. If you execute a shoplifter, then you're the one who's wrong. I'm going to guess we don't need to list an exhaustive list of historical instances in which an other was attacked in the name of maintaining peace. Peace through tyrany also would result in the condition of peace, but in a different vision. If you don't commit crimes because you either fear punishment or are trying to be an upstanding and moral person, both reasons mean you are not committing crimes.
BM Megatron brought peace to Cybertron. That's hard to deny, if peace can be said to be lack of discord and conflict. He doesn't do it through the nicest means, but he does it.
And I know that that's the ends justifying the means, and I know that I'm presenting that part pretty poorly.

Dagon wrote:Also, the line doesn't blur or fall based on the actions or things he's condoned, any more than saying that attaining freedom by any means necessary is admirable. What we have is two sides who essentially agree to tolerate certain amounts of "evil" or immoral deeds so long as the ultimate result is something beneficial to the group.

And yet it resulted in a massive civil war that destroyed one planet and spilled over onto many more. All because Megatron wanted power.

And so, if the Autobots need to wipe out every single Decpticon in order to secure their brand of peace, it'll be ok. Because it's been proven again and again, they can't just sit the Decepticons down and talk this over, so basically, kill or be killed. Or deactive them, and put their personalities or what ever it was in storage, like the Combaticons.
So, it's cool when the 'good' guys do it, but if the 'bad' guys do it, they must be wiped out so as to prevent future problems.

Dagon wrote:If Cybertronians agree to be subjugated under Megatron so as to acchieve what they want or believe in, then it's not evil.

None of them agreed to it. That's why they're at war.

I meant the Decepticons, who follow Megatron. They were the Cybertronians I was refering to. If Cybertronians agree to be subjugated under Megatron, so as to acchieve what they want or believe in, then their being evil is something applied to them via their association.

Dagon wrote:Remember, 'evil' is a quality that is applied by others, not self applied. Megatron is evil to Prime and his guys.....I doubt Starscream and company sit back and think that Megatron is evil. If they elect to be ruled through fear and pain, that is their choice, as Megatron also never made people follow him, unless we feel the need to talk about Inferno's reprogramming in Energon. And really, let's not.

Okay. We could talk about the Constructicon's reprogramming, and how Megatron used them to raze and entire city.

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Ok, well played. I forgot about that one. We still have to acknowledge that there are those who follow Megatron of their own volition.

Dagon wrote:BM Megatron brought peace to Cybertron. That's hard to deny, if peace can be said to be lack of discord and conflict. He doesn't do it through the nicest means, but he does it.
And I know that that's the ends justifying the means, and I know that I'm presenting that part pretty poorly.

Extremely poorly. While Megatron DID bring "peace" to Cybertron, he did so by killing everyone. And anyone he didn't kill ended up being forcibly enslaved. If your utopia requires mass genocide and enslavement, to the point that you're the only one who is neither dead nor enslaved, then it's not a utopia at all.

Dagon wrote:Because it's been proven again and again, they can't just sit the Decepticons down and talk this over, so basically, kill or be killed.

Exactly! That's exactly it! If the Autobots don't fight, they'll be killed by the Decepticons. If the Decepticons don't fight, then the Autobots also don't fight because that's all they really wanted.

Dagon wrote:Ok, well played. I forgot about that one. We still have to acknowledge that there are those who follow Megatron of their own volition.

It's been shown that many Decepticons are afraid of Megatron, so it's more than likely he's leading by intimidation. (I.e. why Starscream's assassination attempts always seem to end when Megatron aims a fusion cannon at him)

It's fascinating that you (Dragon) have come to see the Decepticons as being the noble rebels when in a lot of ways their actions have many times been quite contrary to what a noble being would be. As Shadow has pointed out that, going back to the G1 series, Megatron has repeatedly enslaved many. He enslaved not only Autobots, but as has been mentioned, Decepticons as well. G1 states that he enslaved the Supremes which were guardians of peace, the Constructicons and a few others. Others like Starscream said in G1, "I joined because Megatron is power." Starscream in the original was a scientist and explorer as we find out in the Jetfire/Skyfire episodes. We even see in Beast Wars that the Megatron in that series actually uses the same practice on Rhinox who later, because of the corruption, becomes Tankor.

Beast Wars even brings out that Decepticons and Autobots did make peace, they did reach a treaty, in which that warrior took on the mantle/name of Megatron. It states also in the series that the reason the Predicons started the rebellion was because they thought they should be leaders, but were made "second class citizens" by the Maximals. This is the closest in any series that has come close to ascribing any noble reasons for the Decepticons to rebel.

When we look at the actions, which truly describe anyone's real motives, we see that the only thing Decepticons really want is power and domination.

There are elements mysticism in the Autobots, but it is never defined. The matrix is nothing more than a repository of knowledge and experience of those who have possessed it through time. In that matter it can be looked upon as sacred by the Autobots, and that define what they consider important, which is knowledge and wisdom. If there is more to the matrix I am not aware.

Looking at the differences between Cons and Bots through the perspective I was stating earlier (which seems to fit both sides best) as Totalitarianism vs. Freedom of Choice it's obvious the Autobots are for freedom of choice and Decepticons are Totalitarians. Since these are the roots of the religious and secular aspects of our society, it's easy to see that Autobots are the secularists, and the Decepticons the Totalitarians. I say this because, for the Cons, Megatron is the end all be all. He is to be followed because he is leader. He is leader because he's strongest. He's leader because he has the vision and the plan. For the Bots, Prime becomes leader because he was chosen by Vector Sigma. He was chosen because he showed courage, freedom of thought (because he did originally support Megatron) and changed his mind. The matrix is then passed to Orion Pax.

On the side of Censorship, that's a thread I'll have to make later.

Also I have to admit I'm a little lost when talking about, "-tion." I don't know which series that is? Also I'm not familiar with Megatron Origins. More information on these would be a big help.

Shadowman: Very good points. I have to admit to agreeing with most points. However, Utopia is defined as a "perfect society." The idea of perfection is subjective and as far as Megatron, for Beast Machines, was concerned he had created a perfect society. It was a society completely ruled by him, so as far as he was concerned, that was perfect.

Both: I have to admit I'm having fun with this too. It's the geekiest conversation I've ever had and hope it goes on for a while. I also don't plan on going anywhere any time soon. Thank you both.