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Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:02 am

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I think I see what the problem is. When I last responded to orangeitis, I accidentally left in some bits of his quoted post that I forgot to erase, which caused your post to get a bit jumbled up when responding to us both. I edited my post to get rid of the unwanted bits, and have also attempted to fix the code of you post for ya. Here ya go. ;)


Dead Metal wrote:Now this is kinda unfair and I usualy don't like doing it, but since Sabreblade has brought up some of the points I was going to bring up, I will simply elaborate.

Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:Not what Hasbro wanted, and seeing how the games are simply adaptations of the Prime universe backstory written by Hasbro, well.
But... they weren't. High Moon wrote the stories for the game and submits them to Hasbro for approval. That's why we're even getting Dinobots in FoC. If it was just up to Hasbro, they wouldn't have even been considered.
I think the stories of the games are more of a joint-effort between High Moon and Hasbro, with High Moon providing the more specific plot details, and Hasbro giving the basic overall plot and some pointers on how it's supposed to abide by the established timeline of the Binder. Though, now that I think about it, this would be a good question to ask at the next BotCon or whatever convention next has a FOC panel.
That is indeed how this works, Hasbro submits a story and bible, highlighting what they want to have in the game, High Moon adapts it and submits changes. Some of which make it in others don't.

Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:Yes it's a telling of the same history, and they both contradict each other, this is due to them being made at the same time by different people, using older/ never versions of the same material. Just like comic and novel adaptations of Movies, they have to be released at about the same time as the movie they're based on so they work with older scripts, and very often they won't get any updated material.
Movies and novel adaptions are always different continuities, as far as I know.
In the specific cases of the Bay movies, I think the way those movies and their comics and novel adaptations are treated is that, while the final cut versions of the movies themselves are treated as the most canon versions, anything in the adaptations that didn't make it into the films that doesn't contradict the films themselves (like certain details about the Harvester in ROTF) can also be considered canon to the films' continuity, while anything in the adaptations that is in conflict with the films (like Barricade outright dying in the Movie 1 comic) is definitely not canon to the films. Though, this is still a shaky idea, but it does better help the continuity of the films work with their prequel/sequel comics.
The Transformers Movie comics are all made to be in continuity with the movies, which is why the writers always work closely with idw. Sadly the comics have dead lines to adhere to in terms of getting work done while movies can be changed very close to the release date. The first TF movie for instance received its final cut two weeks before the premier, a point in which the comics had already been trade form.
Reign of Starscream even went through 4 rewrites before the movie team gave the final OK, they even referenced it in ROTF and changed Starscreams character model to match that of the comic.

Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:Again, that was one interview, with someone who only knows the old stuff and the movies, out of many official interviews and statements.
That was an example of one interview. There are others. Another such example is this.
What immediately follows after his saying that it's grounded in the G1 cartoon makes it sound like means that the game's character aesthetics are grounded in the G1 cartoon, meaning that the designs (rather than the entire game) are directly taken from the G1 cartoon and then, as he says, modernized to get the new look we have now.
Ah that video, OK let me quote what he says:
Matt Tieger wrote:Honestly, this is the game that I've been waiting 25 years for to play. It's very nostalgic in that it's grounded in the Generation 1, G1, 1984 cartoon. We took a lot of our colours, feel, and style for the characters when we designed them and then modernised those. So we figured out what made an Autobot an Autobot and a Decepticon a Decepticon, and we figured out the styles for those but it all had to be grounded in that cartoon feel - but modern, and realistic, and gritty.
He's talking about the design aspect of the game, here's another video in which he elaborates on this:
Design team including Tieger wrote:What we first did - was a lot of research. And we came up with a story that was always touching back to G1, that cartoon from the '80s, right? And made sure that that was our primary touchstone, and then we drew inspiration from other places but, that was our cornerstone.

And we went back to the Generation 1 cartoon, and the Generation 1 movie, and then there where other influences like Tron, and Bladerunner, and some of the textual sciencefiction stuff that we tried to bring in like Aliens.
He's talking about feeling and the design style, he's not talking about this being part of it. So if you try to use him talking about the feel and design of the game being similar and based on G1 as your argument for it being G1, well you're also putting this in the same universes as Tron, Aliens, and Blade Runner.
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Dead Metal » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:08 am

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THanks, but I had another try after my last post and managed to fix it, and while I was at it I changed a few minor things.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:53 pm

Dead Metal wrote:Now this is kinda unfair and I usualy don't like doing it, but since Sabreblade has brought up some of the points I was going to bring up, I will simply elaborate.
Fair is fair in debates, man. The purpose of the debates is to come to as close as a resolve of the issue at hand while using the merits of your arguments as tools, and if either side should understand that their opponent's arguments carry more factual weight, they should withdraw from the debate, and hopefully use the proper facts next time.

Give me all you've got, because that's what I'm giving you. =D

Dead Metal wrote:That is indeed how this works, Hasbro submits a story and bible, highlighting what they want to have in the game, High Moon adapts it and submits changes. Some of which make it in others don't.
As I understand it, High Moon didn't even know about Aligned till well into the developmental stage of War For Cybertron, if not after they finished with the development.

Dead Metal wrote:The Transformers Movie comics are all made to be in continuity with the movies, which is why the writers always work closely with idw. Sadly the comics have dead lines to adhere to in terms of getting work done while movies can be changed very close to the release date. The first TF movie for instance received its final cut two weeks before the premier, a point in which the comics had already been trade form.
Reign of Starscream even went through 4 rewrites before the movie team gave the final OK, they even referenced it in ROTF and changed Starscreams character model to match that of the comic.
If the Transformers Movie comics are all apparently made to be in continuity with the movies, how is it that the comics have their own "versions" of the movies? For example, Skids and Mudflap die in the comics, yet in the same scene in Dark of the Moon, they weren't anywhere to be seen(except as cars in the building, or so I heard)

Dead Metal wrote:Firstly, you're jumping to conclusions by misunderstanding what is being said and then taking things out of context and arranging them with a seed of truth to justify your beliefs, and make them more believable, which is the exact same thing conspiracy theorists do. Which brings us back to the Lizardmen.
Give me some specifics, please. Because I can't find where I've done that.

If you're talking about where I'm claiming that WFC/FOC might be connected to a new G1 universe, the fact is that it's entirely plausible. Whereas conspiracy theorists deny facts that prove their whole theory wrong in order to support their own(usually irrational) beliefs.

Dead Metal wrote:Ah that video, OK let me quote what he says:
Matt Tieger wrote:Honestly, this is the game that I've been waiting 25 years for to play. It's very nostalgic in that it's grounded in the Generation 1, G1, 1984 cartoon. We took a lot of our colours, feel, and style for the characters when we designed them and then modernised those. So we figured out what made an Autobot an Autobot and a Decepticon a Decepticon, and we figured out the styles for those but it all had to be grounded in that cartoon feel - but modern, and realistic, and gritty.


He's talking about the design aspect of the game, here's another video in which he elaborates on this:

Design team including Tieger wrote:What we first did - was a lot of research. And we came up with a story that was always touching back to G1, that cartoon from the '80s, right? And made sure that that was our primary touchstone, and then we drew inspiration from other places but, that was our cornerstone.

And we went back to the Generation 1 cartoon, and the Generation 1 movie, and then there where other influences like Tron, and Bladerunner, and some of the textual sciencefiction stuff that we tried to bring in like Aliens.

He's talking about feeling and the design style, he's not talking about this being part of it. So if you try to use him talking about the feel and design of the game being similar and based on G1 as your argument for it being G1, well you're also putting this in the same universes as Tron, Aliens, and Blade Runner.
But I'm not saying that WFC and FoC are in continuity with the G1 cartoon, I'm saying that there is a possibility that they exist within a Primax-cluster universe newly formed with WFC, which are all universes that are considered "G1" universes, as well as existing within an Aligned universe. That's what Matt seems to be pushing, and you haven't presented any facts that contradict that yet.
orangeitis

Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Dead Metal » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:38 pm

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orangeitis wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:That is indeed how this works, Hasbro submits a story and bible, highlighting what they want to have in the game, High Moon adapts it and submits changes. Some of which make it in others don't.
As I understand it, High Moon didn't even know about Aligned till well into the developmental stage of War For Cybertron, if not after they finished with the development.

If that is so, provide me with proof, and I mean actual hard proof and not just you piecing things together.
Dead Metal wrote:The Transformers Movie comics are all made to be in continuity with the movies, which is why the writers always work closely with idw. Sadly the comics have dead lines to adhere to in terms of getting work done while movies can be changed very close to the release date. The first TF movie for instance received its final cut two weeks before the premier, a point in which the comics had already been released in trade form.
Reign of Starscream even went through 4 rewrites before the movie team gave the final OK, they even referenced it in ROTF and changed Starscreams character model to match that of the comic.

If the Transformers Movie comics are all apparently made to be in continuity with the movies, how is it that the comics have their own "versions" of the movies? For example, Skids and Mudflap die in the comics, yet in the same scene in Dark of the Moon, they weren't anywhere to be seen(except as cars in the building, or so I heard)

I already explained that to you, read the bolded parts.

And even earlier:
Dead Metal wrote:Yes it's a telling of the same history, and they both contradict each other, this is due to them being made at the same time by different people, using older/ never versions of the same material. Just like comic and novel adaptations of Movies, they have to be released at about the same time as the movie they're based on so they work with older scripts, and very often they won't get any updated material.



Dead Metal wrote:Firstly, you're jumping to conclusions by misunderstanding what is being said and then taking things out of context and arranging them with a seed of truth to justify your beliefs, and make them more believable, which is the exact same thing conspiracy theorists do. Which brings us back to the Lizardmen.

Give me some specifics, please. Because I can't find where I've done that.

If you're talking about where I'm claiming that WFC/FOC might be connected to a new G1 universe, the fact is that it's entirely plausible. Whereas conspiracy theorists deny facts that prove their whole theory wrong in order to support their own(usually irrational) beliefs.
[/quote]
It's not plausible, this world functions by different laws and ways, the technology is different, the characters are similar but different, the abilities are different.
Even if this splices of into different continuities, they would all be in the Aligned universal stream as in the ALINGED continuity family which is separate from Primax, and only universes in the Primax stream are G1.

It's exactly what you're doing, you're completely ignoring everything that states that it's something new and merely used the old material as inspiration for the look and for nostalgica. You ignore the parts of it only serving for inspiration, leave the parts mentioning G1, leave out the words that bring in vagueness like kinda, and then fill it in with your own thoughts and present it as something that makes sense.
[/quote]
Dead Metal wrote:Ah that video, OK let me quote what he says:
Matt Tieger wrote:Honestly, this is the game that I've been waiting 25 years for to play. It's very nostalgic in that it's grounded in the Generation 1, G1, 1984 cartoon. We took a lot of our colours, feel, and style for the characters when we designed them and then modernised those. So we figured out what made an Autobot an Autobot and a Decepticon a Decepticon, and we figured out the styles for those but it all had to be grounded in that cartoon feel - but modern, and realistic, and gritty.


He's talking about the design aspect of the game, here's another video in which he elaborates on this:

Design team including Tieger wrote:What we first did - was a lot of research. And we came up with a story that was always touching back to G1, that cartoon from the '80s, right? And made sure that that was our primary touchstone, and then we drew inspiration from other places but, that was our cornerstone.

And we went back to the Generation 1 cartoon, and the Generation 1 movie, and then there where other influences like Tron, and Bladerunner, and some of the textual sciencefiction stuff that we tried to bring in like Aliens.

He's talking about feeling and the design style, he's not talking about this being part of it. So if you try to use him talking about the feel and design of the game being similar and based on G1 as your argument for it being G1, well you're also putting this in the same universes as Tron, Aliens, and Blade Runner.

But I'm not saying that WFC and FoC are in continuity with the G1 cartoon, I'm saying that there is a possibility that they exist within a Primax-cluster universe newly formed with WFC, which are all universes that are considered "G1" universes, as well as existing within an Aligned universe. That's what Matt seems to be pushing, and you haven't presented any facts that contradict that yet.[/quote]
No, that is not what he has been pushing, what he has been pushing is a game that builds on nostalgia to get people to buy/ play it.
It is not set in any Primax continuity, not even a new one, every time he mentions that you completely ignore it and write it off as "irrelevant".

I never stated that you said it's set in the G1 cartoon, I quoted what he said, and that is that the main inspiration for the game is the G1 cartoon. Which you always use as proof of it being G1.

Why is it that the one time he said it ends kinda, not even definite but kinda, at the beginning of G1 as definite proof of this being set in a G1 universe, while every time he mentions how it's only used as inspiration and is it's own thing as "irrelevant" and that it "proves nothing"?

How about instead of asking me to bring in more proof for why it's not G1, which I have already done, had you seen any of the videos I and Sabre linked to, and instead provide us with your "obvious and undeniable proof" of this being G1. You know just the way I've been asking of you?

How am I supposed to "understand" your side of the argument if you present nothing but your own opinion?

Oh no, instead you question my intelligence and understanding while ignoring my points, calling official statements and facts "irrelevant" while insisting that you are right.



Now, provide me with actual proof, proof that has nothing to do with inspiration, design work, nostalgia, or comparisons. Hard actual proof of this fitting in with G1. You know the proof and evidence you keep bringing up.
If your next post doesn't contain anything of the like, I view this discussion as over and ended in my favour.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Dead Metal wrote:If that is so, provide me with proof, and I mean actual hard proof and not just you piecing things together.
I'm not gonna prove I'm "piecing things together", because I've never tried to piece things together. I've just been trying to explain to you that there's a possibility of something.

Dead Metal wrote:I already explained that to you, read the bolded parts.
That's not an explanation that the comics are in the same continuity as the movie. That's merely an acknowledgement that they were created by different writers.

Dead Metal wrote:It's not plausible, this world functions by different laws and ways, the technology is different, the characters are similar but different, the abilities are different.
Even if this splices of into different continuities, they would all be in the Aligned universal stream as in the ALINGED continuity family which is separate from Primax, and only universes in the Primax stream are G1.
That would imply that the Marvel comics aren't Primax because Grimlock isn't dumb as he is in the G1 cartoon, comic Soundwave isn't as loyal as he is in the (American) G1 cartoon, etc.

Different universes in the same cluster have differences. That don't determine that their definition as a member of that cluster is false.

Dead Metal wrote:It's exactly what you're doing, you're completely ignoring everything that states that it's something new and merely used the old material as inspiration for the look and for nostalgica. You ignore the parts of it only serving for inspiration, leave the parts mentioning G1, leave out the words that bring in vagueness like kinda, and then fill it in with your own thoughts and present it as something that makes sense.
I'm not ignoring that it's something new. Every Primax universe that was released after the G1 cartoon was something new. Being different in the aspects you're mentioning is irrelevant to whether it's a Primax universe or not.

Nostalgia? That's why Hasbro keeps using Optimus Prime, Megatron, etc. They're in every Transformers incarnation. Hasbro keeps using them for the same reasons that nostalgia-based aspects keep being used - They're recognizable. That has no bearing on this argument.

Dead Metal wrote:No, that is not what he has been pushing, what he has been pushing is a game that builds on nostalgia to get people to buy/ play it.
It is not set in any Primax continuity, not even a new one, every time he mentions that you completely ignore it and write it off as "irrelevant".
But he didn't proclaim that it's not set in a Primax universe. I said it's irrelevant because you're trying to use aspects of WFC or FoC to try proving that it's not a Primax at all, when those aspects don't have any bearing on whether it could be a Primax universe or not.

Dead Metal wrote:I never stated that you said it's set in the G1 cartoon, I quoted what he said, and that is that the main inspiration for the game is the G1 cartoon. Which you always use as proof of it being G1.
You're still misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to "prove it to be G1", I'm saying that there's a possibility for it to be considered a Primax universe as well as an Aligned universe. You're also ignoring the fact that I also understand that it's an Aligned universe whether or not it would also be considered a Primax universe.

Dead Metal wrote:Why is it that the one time he said it ends kinda, not even definite but kinda, at the beginning of G1 as definite proof of this being set in a G1 universe, while every time he mentions how it's only used as inspiration and is it's own thing as "irrelevant" and that it "proves nothing"?
I've never claimed it to be definitive proof that it's set in a G1 universe. I merely claimed that it's a possibility.

Dead Metal wrote:How about instead of asking me to bring in more proof for why it's not G1, which I have already done, had you seen any of the videos I and Sabre linked to, and instead provide us with your "obvious and undeniable proof" of this being G1. You know just the way I've been asking of you?


Dead Metal wrote:How am I supposed to "understand" your side of the argument if you present nothing but your own opinion?
I'm not presenting the opinion itself, I'm merely claiming it to be a possibility. That's what you seem to misunderstand. It's actually irrelevant whether or not it's my opinion.

Dead Metal wrote:Oh no, instead you question my intelligence and understanding while ignoring my points, calling official statements and facts "irrelevant" while insisting that you are right.
I'm claiming that there's a possibility, and that possibility exists whether the arguments you've presented that I've referred to as irrelevant are true or not. That's why.

Dead Metal wrote:Now, provide me with actual proof, proof that has nothing to do with inspiration, design work, nostalgia, or comparisons. Hard actual proof of this fitting in with G1. You know the proof and evidence you keep bringing up.
If your next post doesn't contain anything of the like, I view this discussion as over and ended in my favour.
Again, I'm not providing you with proof, as I'm not trying to prove that. I'm trying to explain to you that it's a possibility. You've been arguing with a straw man this whole time.
orangeitis

Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Dead Metal » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:46 pm

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Yup this is over as you once again fail to bring anything valid to the discussion. However, I'll have to explain one other thing to you since you still can't grasp it, but it's the last time I try.

orangeitis wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:It's not plausible, this world functions by different laws and ways, the technology is different, the characters are similar but different, the abilities are different.
Even if this splices of into different continuities, they would all be in the Aligned universal stream as in the ALINGED continuity family which is separate from Primax, and only universes in the Primax stream are G1.
That would imply that the Marvel comics aren't Primax because Grimlock isn't dumb as he is in the G1 cartoon, comic Soundwave isn't as loyal as he is in the (American) G1 cartoon, etc.

Different universes in the same cluster have differences. That don't determine that their definition as a member of that cluster is false.


The thing is, this is in the Aligned universal stream, which for the last time is separate from Primax.
So if this does split of into different universes they will still be within the same universal stream, the Aligned universal stream, a collection of universes that have a few differences but share the same principles and characters.
Separate from other universal streams, Universal streams do not cross or splice of from one another, they are a collection of universes that are fundamentally the same, even if the have a few differences.

All the G1 fiction is in the so-called "Primax Stream", and that's where they stay, they don't go and splice off into the Unicron trilogy, the Movies or Aligned, they stay separate.

for a simple comparison:

The American continent is the multiverse
the USA is a universal stream
Canada is also a universal stream
So is Mexico

Each of them have states/ autonomous communities or Universes
Each of those states or universes are similar according to their universal stream or country and share certain laws, but they have differences, some more than others

The countries or universal streams also share similarities but are much more different and separated

Aligned is a universal stream or country say Mexico

While Primax, which contains all the G1 universes ever, is another country, say Canada

Do you now understand why G1 can't share WFC/FOC with Aligned?

Well, if not, it's obvious that you need to go elsewhere to find help to understand it, because that's about as simple as I can put it.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:15 pm

Dead Metal wrote:The thing is, this is in the Aligned universal stream, which for the last time is separate from Primax.
So if this does split of into different universes they will still be within the same universal stream, the Aligned universal stream, a collection of universes that have a few differences but share the same principles and characters.
Separate from other universal streams, Universal streams do not cross or splice of from one another, they are a collection of universes that are fundamentally the same, even if the have a few differences.

All the G1 fiction is in the so-called "Primax Stream", and that's where they stay, they don't go and splice off into the Unicron trilogy, the Movies or Aligned, they stay separate.

for a simple comparison:

The American continent is the multiverse
the USA is a universal stream
Canada is also a universal stream
So is Mexico

Each of them have states/ autonomous communities or Universes
Each of those states or universes are similar according to their universal stream or country and share certain laws, but they have differences, some more than others

The countries or universal streams also share similarities but are much more different and separated

Aligned is a universal stream or country say Mexico

While Primax, which contains all the G1 universes ever, is another country, say Canada

Do you now understand why G1 can't share WFC/FOC with Aligned?

Well, if not, it's obvious that you need to go elsewhere to find help to understand it, because that's about as simple as I can put it.
We'll put aside the fact that the multiverse originated from one "core" universe at the dawn of time of the Transformers multiverse. We'll also put aside the fact that Aligned, like the Bay movies, aren't considered within the traditional Transformers multiverse.

What I'm talking about is intellectually, what Matt Tieger and his design team originally planned for WFC to be a Primax cluster universe. Yes, Hasbro is an authority over Tieger to market WFC and FOC as strictly an Aligned universe. But as far as Tieger's and his design team's intentions go, WFC and FOC is just as "G1" as it is Aligned.

Yes, officially, WFC and FOC are strictly Aligned, and Hasbro has decided to abandon all past continuities in favor of a new multiverse(which makes you wonder if Bay will adhere to that decision in TF4), but WFC was conceptualized before Hasbro's decision to make everything coincide with Aligned. That's the key point I'm trying to make. That window of time allows at least WFC to be considered a Primax cluster universe in the original TF multiverse, much like the Universe Bruticus Maximus toy could be considered a Primax-centric bot as well as a Bayverse bot after he was repackaged.

Get it now?
orangeitis

Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:27 pm

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Dead Metal, you do realize that one series can exist in more than one universe, right? Look at the Beast Wars cartoon. It exists in the 3H/Fun Pub Beast Era comics universe, and also in the IDW Beast Wars comics universe. Both are separate universes from each other, yet they share the same cartoon events.

That's one of the points orangeitis was getting at. He knows good and well that the events of WFC/FOC exist in the Aligned continuity, but he's also suggesting that the same events could possibly also exist in a separate original Primax-based universe autonomous from any existing Primax universe, as a sort of micro-continuity.

He's not saying that these games existing in a Primax universe is a FACT, he's saying it as an IDEA.

As for the games' events existing in not only two separate universes but two separate universal clusters, it wouldn't be the first time something similar has happened. Take, for example, RiD and Car Robots. The RiD cartoon is confirmed as a Viron universe, while its Japanese counterpart, Car Robots exists in the complete separate universe of Primax. Only difference here being that the characters have different languages,dialogue, and names in each version, but as Beast Wars proves, even same-language series can occur more than one universe.
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:31 pm

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orangeitis wrote:We'll also put aside the fact that Aligned, like the Bay movies, aren't considered within the traditional Transformers multiverse.
The movies are in the multiverse. They reside within the Tyran cluster.
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:47 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:We'll also put aside the fact that Aligned, like the Bay movies, aren't considered within the traditional Transformers multiverse.
The movies are in the multiverse. They reside within the Tyran cluster.
Ah, that's right. I was sort of thrown off by the lack of connection between multiverse The Fallen and Bayverse The Fallen.
orangeitis

Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:50 pm

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orangeitis wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:We'll also put aside the fact that Aligned, like the Bay movies, aren't considered within the traditional Transformers multiverse.
The movies are in the multiverse. They reside within the Tyran cluster.
Ah, that's right. I was sort of thrown off by the lack of connection between multiverse The Fallen and Bayverse The Fallen.
As a multiversal singularity, he is a self-contradicting being. :-B
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:18 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:We'll also put aside the fact that Aligned, like the Bay movies, aren't considered within the traditional Transformers multiverse.
The movies are in the multiverse. They reside within the Tyran cluster.
Ah, that's right. I was sort of thrown off by the lack of connection between multiverse The Fallen and Bayverse The Fallen.
As a multiversal singularity, he is a self-contradicting being. :-B
He don't have to be. Vector Prime is known to be able to travel between dimensions. The Fallen? Not sure, but he still could be flung into alternate realities unwillingly. Plus, as a TF with "supernatural" abilities(read: Abilities not understood by us mortals), he could probably die and be reborn countless times like Unicron.

I'm pretty interested in how Hasbro will portray the "new" 13 original TFs. I'd personally prefer aesthetical consistency with them even if(when?) they show up in other Aligned stories, but I fear that they'll all end up like the old 13, who's appearances were inexplicably varied.

*starts another off-topic conversation* |:|

Er... so how about that Metroplex guy? I heard he was gonna appear in that new Transformers game! :lol:
orangeitis

Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:28 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:As a multiversal singularity, he is a self-contradicting being. :-B
He don't have to be.
But he is. I'm not assuming or speculating, he is officially a self-contradicting being:
TFWiki.net wrote:As explained in more detail in the appropriate sections below, The Fallen has been given different origin stories in several of the different continuities in which he has appeared. At first glance, these may seem to be in conflict, but they are simply another facet of his nature as a singularity. The Fallen and other beings of his type do not experience reality in the same manner as lesser, linear beings. With the complicated loops and twists of time and dimension, he is quite capable of possessing different origins in the different realities he enters and still remaining one singular entity. To paraphrase Walt Whitman: Does he contradict himself? Very well, then he contradicts himself. He is large. He contains multitudes.
More info:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Fallen
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Multiversal_singularity
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:39 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
orangeitis wrote:As a multiversal singularity, he is a self-contradicting being. :-B
He don't have to be.
But he is. I'm not assuming or speculating, he is officially a self-contradicting being:
TFWiki.net wrote:As explained in more detail in the appropriate sections below, The Fallen has been given different origin stories in several of the different continuities in which he has appeared. At first glance, these may seem to be in conflict, but they are simply another facet of his nature as a singularity. The Fallen and other beings of his type do not experience reality in the same manner as lesser, linear beings. With the complicated loops and twists of time and dimension, he is quite capable of possessing different origins in the different realities he enters and still remaining one singular entity. To paraphrase Walt Whitman: Does he contradict himself? Very well, then he contradicts himself. He is large. He contains multitudes.
More info:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Fallen
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Multiversal_singularity
Oh, I see. He's not supposed to make sense.

That makes sense. >:oP
orangeitis

Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:43 pm

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orangeitis wrote:Oh, I see. He's not supposed to make sense.

That makes sense. >:oP
Not to us mere mortals, yes. If he did, things would be just confusing. :P
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:43 am

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Sabrblade wrote:Dead Metal, you do realize that one series can exist in more than one universe, right? Look at the Beast Wars cartoon. It exists in the 3H/Fun Pub Beast Era comics universe, and also in the IDW Beast Wars comics universe. Both are separate universes from each other, yet they share the same cartoon events.

Yes, but those are still in the Primax universal stream, as in G1 universes.
That's one of the points orangeitis was getting at. He knows good and well that the events of WFC/FOC exist in the Aligned continuity, but he's also suggesting that the same events could possibly also exist in a separate original Primax-based universe autonomous from any existing Primax universe, as a sort of micro-continuity.

I know that:
It wouldn't be Primax then would it, since it would be too far detached from the rest the Primax universes. That's what I'm getting at.
He's not saying that these games existing in a Primax universe is a FACT, he's saying it as an IDEA.

And idea that has no grounding on reality. And lacks the "evidence" he keeps going on about. And without actually providing any, his idea is irrelevant and has not bearing on anything.
As for the games' events existing in not only two separate universes but two separate universal clusters, it wouldn't be the first time something similar has happened. Take, for example, RiD and Car Robots. The RiD cartoon is confirmed as a Viron universe, while its Japanese counterpart, Car Robots exists in the complete separate universe of Primax. Only difference here being that the characters have different languages,dialogue, and names in each version, but as Beast Wars proves, even same-language series can occur more than one universe.

Yes, but Takara also has that awesome time-line that says how all of G1, RID, Armada, Kiss-Players and the movies fit into one and the same universe and just take place during different times.

Even if this was meant to be G1, it isn't, Prime was supposed to take place in the Movie verse but was changed during production, arguing against that is like arguing that Optimus Primal and Optimus Prime are one and the same.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:21 am

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Dead Metal wrote:
That's one of the points orangeitis was getting at. He knows good and well that the events of WFC/FOC exist in the Aligned continuity, but he's also suggesting that the same events could possibly also exist in a separate original Primax-based universe autonomous from any existing Primax universe, as a sort of micro-continuity.

I know that:
It wouldn't be Primax then would it, since it would be too far detached from the rest the Primax universes. That's what I'm getting at.
How do you figure? One version would be Aligned, and the other identical version would be Primax. Simple as that.

Dead Metal wrote:
He's not saying that these games existing in a Primax universe is a FACT, he's saying it as an IDEA.

And idea that has no grounding on reality. And lacks the "evidence" he keeps going on about. And without actually providing any, his idea is irrelevant and has not bearing on anything.
The "evidence" is more based in the overall aesthetical design of the characters, which are very much Primax-esque. So much even that IDW is fully using several of those designs in their two most recent G1 ongoings, in which they fit seemlessly.

Not to mention how TakaraTomy used them in their United manga, which is most definitely Primax fiction.

Dead Metal wrote:Yes, but Takara also has that awesome time-line that says how all of G1, RID, Armada, Kiss-Players and the movies fit into one and the same universe and just take place during different times.

Image

Still believing that age old misconception, eh?

Takara never had such a timeline. The one that your think of was TWO timelines. One on top was for Primax, and the other beneath it was for Aurex. That was not RiD in the Primax timeline, that was Car Robots. That was not the Bay movie in the Primax timeline, that was an ad for the movie (like a sort of, "BTW, did you know that they're making a movie in the real world in 2007?" aside moment).

They later released another Primax timeline in 2007 in which there is nothing in that timeline aside from Primax-releated fiction, including Beast Wars SLTF, Beast Wars Diorama Story, FSRLTF, Scramble City, Binaltech (splinter timeline, but still included to show what years it occurs in), Car Robots, RobotMasters, TF: The Movie, Kiss Players, 2010, The headmasters, Masterforce, Victory, Zone, Return of Convoy, Operation Combination, G-2, e-HOBBY G1, Beast Wars Returns, Beast Wars II, Beast Wars Neo, and Beast Wars Reborn.

Dead Metal wrote:Even if this was meant to be G1, it isn't, Prime was supposed to take place in the Movie verse but was changed during production, arguing against that is like arguing that Optimus Primal and Optimus Prime are one and the same.
Where was it stated that Prime was meant to be Movieverse/Tyran? Like WFC, it too came about during the time Hasbro had created the Binder, so it would have had to be intended for Aligned from the get-go.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:Even if this was meant to be G1, it isn't, Prime was supposed to take place in the Movie verse but was changed during production, arguing against that is like arguing that Optimus Primal and Optimus Prime are one and the same.
Where was it stated that Prime was meant to be Movieverse/Tyran? Like WFC, it too came about during the time Hasbro had created the Binder, so it would have had to be intended for Aligned from the get-go.

http://www.seibertron.com/news/index.ph ... rch=Search
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:42 am

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Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:Even if this was meant to be G1, it isn't, Prime was supposed to take place in the Movie verse but was changed during production, arguing against that is like arguing that Optimus Primal and Optimus Prime are one and the same.
Where was it stated that Prime was meant to be Movieverse/Tyran? Like WFC, it too came about during the time Hasbro had created the Binder, so it would have had to be intended for Aligned from the get-go.

http://www.seibertron.com/news/index.ph ... rch=Search
Oh, yeah, forgot about that "first draft". :oops:

but, what about the other points I covered?
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:28 pm

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
Sabrblade wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:Even if this was meant to be G1, it isn't, Prime was supposed to take place in the Movie verse but was changed during production, arguing against that is like arguing that Optimus Primal and Optimus Prime are one and the same.
Where was it stated that Prime was meant to be Movieverse/Tyran? Like WFC, it too came about during the time Hasbro had created the Binder, so it would have had to be intended for Aligned from the get-go.

http://www.seibertron.com/news/index.ph ... rch=Search
Oh, yeah, forgot about that "first draft". :oops:

but, what about the other points I covered?

I've already stated, it wouldn't be in the Primax stream, so it wouldn't really be G1.
Heck, there are people who consider only the material that was published in the 80s as G1, with everything else being unrelated.
I could only accept this as G1, if it actually where G1 and was marketed as such, but it's not.

Nowhere does Hasbro state that it's the back story for all continuities, official word is that it's Aligned, not Aligned and G1, and Unicron Trillogy, and Movie, but simply Aligned.


Also, as stated before, the reason why they look so Primaxesqu is because they where designed to evoke a feeling of familiarity and nostalgia in the players, plus the people behind the game grew up with G1, you generally try to bring back or homage that with which you grow up once you're a grown up and in the position to do so.
That is my point, I want evidence that's not just "they look similar", especially since that was the whole reason for the look.
Because if we go by looks alone, Superlink/ Energon is also G1, and Transtech is Movie, and Animated is Batman.
Either put it where your mouth is or just leave.

And the whole, it could still be G1, a completely new G1 totally detached from all previous Primax Universes.
Well then it could also be a completely new Movieverse, totally separate from the previous one and with different rules and benchmarks that make the movieverse the movieverse, but it would still be movieverse, because it's new and you can't prove it's not because there's no official word that it's not a completely new Movieverse. And we won't know for certain that it's not until they make a new one based on this, but till then I will argue for it, and if you don't agree you're stupid and you don't understand my side because you ignore obvious evidence that contradicts everything official and everything you say, but I won't tell you what it is because I have to go now and play with my Unicorn friends who totally exist.

I give you the time line though.

Also, I'm getting pretty sick of this discussion that was started by someone who gets easily confused, then imagens things and then after he runs out of arguments pulls the "haha ha, I'm not that silly, I was only joking" card.

It's pointless, leads nowhere and has absolutely no baring on anything.

It's Alinged, and only Alinged and will stay this way till the powers that be say otherwise.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:52 pm

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All I'm saying is that a retcon to make it also be another G1 universe is not impossible.

Not that I want that to happen, mind you, but it can happen if some official medium so desired.

It hasn't happened, I don't want it to happen, but it's not impossible.

I'm on your side, Dead Metal, but I do understand what orangeitis was getting at. WFC/FOC are Aligned games, 100%. They are not and have not ever been G1 games, but a retcon to make them be such is not out of the question. That is all.
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
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Re: Transformers Fall of Cybertron E3 Metroplex footage

Postby orangeitis » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:23 pm

Not that I don't have any more to add, but Sabrblade is right. This IS entertaining.

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