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Transformers Prime Beast Hunters "Darkmount, NV" Discussion

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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Seibertron » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:33 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:I'm surprised how there's barely any discussion going on about this episode here. I know several of us already saw it online last week, but I didn't think it was that many. Or at least, that something as hyped up as this isn't generating all that much discussion here. :???:

Either way, here's a HD YouTube upload:



I'm surprised as well, considering my comments I posted earlier in this thread where the Beast Hunters were missing from the first episode of "Beast Hunters". They should've have edited the episode to accommodate all of the Beast Hunters hype or left it as a "movie" premiere so that the Beast Hunters element was retained in the episode. Shockwave, while fun to see in his latest incarnation, should not have been the first episode's "cliffhanger" moment or big reveal.

Perhaps I should front page this to help generate some additional interest.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:46 pm

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Seibertron wrote:I'm surprised as well, considering my comments I posted earlier in this thread where the Beast Hunters were missing from the first episode of "Beast Hunters". They should've have edited the episode to accommodate all of the Beast Hunters hype or left it as a "movie" premiere so that the Beast Hunters element was retained in the episode.
Out of curiosity (and I'm sure this question may stem from my having already seen 53-55, but I'll risk asking anyway) when you mention "the Beast Hunters", what are you referring to, exactly? The Predacons themselves, or something else? :-?
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Seibertron » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:02 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
Seibertron wrote:I'm surprised as well, considering my comments I posted earlier in this thread where the Beast Hunters were missing from the first episode of "Beast Hunters". They should've have edited the episode to accommodate all of the Beast Hunters hype or left it as a "movie" premiere so that the Beast Hunters element was retained in the episode.
Out of curiosity (and I'm sure this question may stem from my having already seen 53-55, but I'll risk asking anyway) when you mention "the Beast Hunters", what are you referring to, exactly? The Predacons themselves, or something else? :-?


The Predacons, who are the actual Beast Hunters. They're absent from the first episode.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:25 pm

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Seibertron wrote:The Predacons, who are the actual Beast Hunters. They're absent from the first episode.
Ah, okay.

I ask for two reasons. One I cannot say since it may refer to spoilers.

The other is because people seem to have differing opinions on what the term "Beast Hunters" refers to. Like, some think it could be the Predacons, as in they're "hunters who are beasts". Others think it refers to the Autobots being "hunters hunting beasts", thinking of the Autobots hunting the Preds.

Doesn't help that that Toy Story-esque commercial from a before referred to the Autobots as the "Beast Hunters", helping complicate matters.

Let's hope that the show itself eventually sorts this all out.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Seibertron » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:31 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
Seibertron wrote:The Predacons, who are the actual Beast Hunters. They're absent from the first episode.
Ah, okay.

I ask for two reasons. One I cannot say since it may refer to spoilers.

The other is because people seem to have differing opinions on what the term "Beast Hunters" refers to. Like, some think it could be the Predacons, as in they're "hunters who are beasts". Others think it refers to the Autobots being "hunters hunting beasts", thinking of the Autobots hunting the Preds.

Doesn't help that that Toy Story-esque commercial from a before referred to the Autobots as the "Beast Hunters", helping complicate matters.

Let's hope that the show itself eventually sorts this all out.


In either scenario, the Predacons are absent from the first episode. Without introducing Predaking, it seems like the ball was dropped with tying the first episode into the title of the show.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:35 pm

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Seibertron wrote:In either scenario, the Predacons are absent from the first episode. Without introducing Predaking, it seems like the ball was dropped with tying the first episode into the title of the show.
Very true.

Similarily, Armada's first "The Unicron Battles" episode (41, "Depart") didn't have Unicron in it. ;)
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby njb902 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:37 pm

Seibertron wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Seibertron wrote:The Predacons, who are the actual Beast Hunters. They're absent from the first episode.
Ah, okay.

I ask for two reasons. One I cannot say since it may refer to spoilers.

The other is because people seem to have differing opinions on what the term "Beast Hunters" refers to. Like, some think it could be the Predacons, as in they're "hunters who are beasts". Others think it refers to the Autobots being "hunters hunting beasts", thinking of the Autobots hunting the Preds.

Doesn't help that that Toy Story-esque commercial from a before referred to the Autobots as the "Beast Hunters", helping complicate matters.

Let's hope that the show itself eventually sorts this all out.


In either scenario, the Predacons are absent from the first episode. Without introducing Predaking, it seems like the ball was dropped with tying the first episode into the title of the show.


I wish they had just kept the title the same, I understand why it isn't I just wish it was.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:09 pm

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njb902 wrote:I wish they had just kept the title the same, I understand why it isn't I just wish it was.
How'd you feel about the previous subline imprint cartoon title changes?

Like:
  • Beast Machines: Battle for the Spark
  • Armada: The Unicron Battles
  • And... I think that's it.
Yes, I know there were others for toys (Energon: The Powerlinx Battles, Cybertron: Primus Unleashed, etc.), but their cartoons didn't use their subline imprint names.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Seibertron » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:38 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
njb902 wrote:I wish they had just kept the title the same, I understand why it isn't I just wish it was.
How'd you feel about the previous subline imprint cartoon title changes?

Like:
  • Beast Machines: Battle for the Spark
  • Armada: The Unicron Battles
  • And... I think that's it.
Yes, I know there were others for toys (Energon: The Powerlinx Battles, Cybertron: Primus Unleashed, etc.), but their cartoons didn't use their subline imprint names.


Was the "Battle for the Spark" imprint used in Beast Machines? I don't recall it ever being used for the TV show.

I'm fine with them using "Beast Hunters" on the show. Just seems silly that the first episode doesn't directly tie-in with the marketing and only serves to continue to build up to this season's theme. I actually blame this more on the Hub than anything for failing to keep the episode as a movie length introduction. Ah well, at least the episode was awesome. Just an odd ending after waiting since October to see Predaking introduced.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Just Negare » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:04 am

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Happy to see Shockwave. Hopefully he's a logical monster in this rendition. I was quite impressed to see the devastation upon Jasper, even if everyone got out alive; still pretty heavy for a kid's cartoon.

I'm defintely in agreement that the Preds should have at least been alluded to in the first episode, I hope they don't become just a footnote to some "Arcee and her pet human" show.
Something memorable here.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby QBKiller94 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:53 pm

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I loved it. They did a good job of building drama about the whereabouts and condition of the Autobots. The shot of Optimus under the rubble was fantastic. And what about Ratchet? Is he dead? They left that pretty ambiguous.

The shots of the burning rubble, Darkmount, Megatron sitting on a throne and a decimated Jasper, NV reminded me of Earth in the Regeneration 1 comic. Pretty heavy imagery for a kids show.

Other highlights were Arachnid being recovered from the wreckage of the Autotbot base and the recovery of the Forge of Solis Prime and the Apex Armor. They've been foreshadowing Arachnid's return for awhile. Looking forward to it.

I had no problem with the Shockwave ending and the lack of Predacons. They have to show the consequences from last season's finale and build some drama before pivoting in a new direction. Besides, Shockwave is the one who finds the Predicons according to the teaser shown at NYCC. It only makes sense to bring him in first.

We only EXPECT to see the Predicons out of the gate because of the toy line and the lame Beast Hunters branding in the show title. No one would be complaining if the Beast Hunters angle was a well-kept secret.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Hotrodimust » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:23 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Hotrodimust wrote:I already watched the first episode and ultra Magnus has a horrible voice
:shock: Dude, it's Michael freakin' Ironside! [-(

Um ok but I don't think that voice fits him its not stern or militant enuff. But it wasn't as bad the second time I watched the episode so maybe it will grow on me.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Hotrodimust » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:25 pm

QBKiller94 wrote:I loved it. They did a good job of building drama about the whereabouts and condition of the Autobots. The shot of Optimus under the rubble was fantastic. And what about Ratchet? Is he dead? They left that pretty ambiguous.

The shots of the burning rubble, Darkmount, Megatron sitting on a throne and a decimated Jasper, NV reminded me of Earth in the Regeneration 1 comic. Pretty heavy imagery for a kids show.

Other highlights were Arachnid being recovered from the wreckage of the Autotbot base and the recovery of the Forge of Solis Prime and the Apex Armor. They've been foreshadowing Arachnid's return for awhile. Looking forward to it.

I had no problem with the Shockwave ending and the lack of Predacons. They have to show the consequences from last season's finale and build some drama before pivoting in a new direction. Besides, Shockwave is the one who finds the Predicons according to the teaser shown at NYCC. It only makes sense to bring him in first.

We only EXPECT to see the Predicons out of the gate because of the toy line and the lame Beast Hunters branding in the show title. No one would be complaining if the Beast Hunters angle was a well-kept secret.

They only show predakings next episode and only in dragon mode
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby wait for it » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:32 pm

They only show predakings next episode and only in dragon mode



A good reason people might not be in this thread is because they are afraid of spoilers.

Ahem.

How about mentioning in the thread that there will be no spoilers or "HEY SPOILER COMING!" so that we don't walk into grenades like this one.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:35 pm

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Seibertron wrote:Was the "Battle for the Spark" imprint used in Beast Machines? I don't recall it ever being used for the TV show.
Indeed it was. Though, it's quite saddening that the DVDs didn't recycle its opening. :-(

I remember my grade school self getting very giddy upon seeing the opening credits have Garry Chalk say the words "Beast Machines! Battle for the Spark!(-ark!)(-ark!)" when the new logo popped up the end of the opening for the first time. The subitle appeared in a horizontal lighting effect spread from center outward. They also added a verbal "Transformers" spoken by Chalk right at the very beginning where the camera zoomed in on Cybertron, but nothing else was changed beyond those two additions.

Although, the only thing I do not remember about the "Battle for the Spark" opening was in which episode it was first used. I don't believe it was first used in the first episode of season 2 (14, "Fallout"), so I'm leaning toward the "Sparkwar" three-parter as being where it may have debuted. I'm fairly certain it was used all the way to the last episode, though.

I also recall a Fox Kids sweepstakes commercial referring to the show by that full subline imprint name (with their also offering Rattrap and Blast Punch Optimus Primal toys to 1000 others who didn't win the grand prize of whatever it was they were offering). The commercial was speaking of the show first before talking about the contest, so it did say "Beast Machines: Battle for the Spark" in reference to the show.

The first lines of this commercial when something like "Beast Machines: Battle for the Spark continues!..." which sounds to me a bit like it aired shortly after the final episode or something, though it is still possible for it to have aired before episode 26 aired. Either way, it must have been circa late-2000/early-2001, after the end of season 1 and before RiD's debut.

I keep this stuff in memory because loved loved LOVED Fox Kids to death as a child and cherish all that I remember of it. :x

Just Negare wrote:Happy to see Shockwave. Hopefully he's a logical monster in this rendition.
You did see episode 43, right?

Just Negare wrote:I'm defintely in agreement that the Preds should have at least been alluded to in the first episode, I hope they don't become just a footnote to some "Arcee and her pet human" show.
Don't worry. ;)

Then again, not sure if that's even really a spoiler. :P
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby RhA » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:33 pm

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Just relax and give the writers their time. I'll wait and see what they build up to.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby gbm » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:59 pm

Sooo...when do they get that spikey cr*p all over themselves?
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:25 pm

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gbm wrote:Sooo...when do they get that spikey cr*p all over themselves?
Who says they ever do?

And, no, I'm not speaking from having seen all three episodes. I mean that as a general question.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby gbm » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:32 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
gbm wrote:Sooo...when do they get that spikey cr*p all over themselves?
Who says they ever do?

And, no, I'm not speaking from having seen all three episodes. I mean that as a general question.


oh man, I just assumed they would given the new toy line. I hope so, I bought me a BH Optimus already! lol

I don't like having figures that don't make a screen appearance.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:36 pm

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gbm wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
gbm wrote:Sooo...when do they get that spikey cr*p all over themselves?
Who says they ever do?

And, no, I'm not speaking from having seen all three episodes. I mean that as a general question.


oh man, I just assumed they would given the new toy line. I hope so, I bought me a BH Optimus already! lol

I don't like having figures that don't make a screen appearance.
I mean, we already saw Bumblebee sporting a new non-toy black color scheme, which his BH toys looks nothing like. So, who's to say that these toy designs will appear in the show?

I could see Optimus getting his though, since we saw him in very bad shape. But it's too early to tell.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby gbm » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:40 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
gbm wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
gbm wrote:Sooo...when do they get that spikey cr*p all over themselves?
Who says they ever do?

And, no, I'm not speaking from having seen all three episodes. I mean that as a general question.


oh man, I just assumed they would given the new toy line. I hope so, I bought me a BH Optimus already! lol

I don't like having figures that don't make a screen appearance.
I mean, we already saw Bumblebee sporting a new non-toy black color scheme, which his BH toys looks nothing like. So, who's to say that these toy designs will appear in the show?

I could see Optimus getting his though, since we saw him in very bad shape. But it's too early to tell.



Good point.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Hotrodimust » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:52 pm

wait for it wrote:
They only show predakings next episode and only in dragon mode



A good reason people might not be in this thread is because they are afraid of spoilers.

Ahem.

How about mentioning in the thread that there will be no spoilers or "HEY SPOILER COMING!" so that we don't walk into grenades like this one.

It's not really a spoiler because they show him in trailers and the first 3 episodes are all over YouTube.
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm

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Hotrodimust wrote:
wait for it wrote:
They only show predakings next episode and only in dragon mode



A good reason people might not be in this thread is because they are afraid of spoilers.

Ahem.

How about mentioning in the thread that there will be no spoilers or "HEY SPOILER COMING!" so that we don't walk into grenades like this one.

It's not really a spoiler because they show him in trailers and the first 3 episodes are all over YouTube.
It is a spoiler when several people refuse to watch subpar fuzzy quality videos with terrible out of sync freaky audio and prefer to watch the show in HD quality.

It's also a spoiler to say "only Predaking" shows and "only in dragon mode" when the trailers do not reveal whether or not he appears alone or if he transforms. WE know he's alone and doesn't transform becuase WE saw the episodes, but THEY don't know that because THEY haven't seen them since THEY prefer HD quality. THAT is why it is a spoiler.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters "Darkmount, NV" Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:29 pm

Motto: "FOR THE EARTH!!!"
Weapon: Saber Blade
Posting this here as well in case others missed it.

Last Friday, instead of a new episode of Transformers: Prime Beast Hunters, we were treated to an encore presentation of episode 53 as a part of a special event titled "The Autobits Edition". The episode was filled with several behind-the-scenes trivia and tidbits, as well as some in-jokes and episode commentary, which I've taken the time to write down for those who missed out on the episode.

* Back on Cybertron, Wheeljack was part of the combat unit the Wreckers.

* The citadel is 5.5 miles tall or roughly 1660 average-sized Autobots standing on each other's shoulders.

* Perhaps Starscream has a degree in Creative Writing from Cybertron Tech.

* Voice-over artist Frank Welker first played Megatron in the original 1984 series. He also voiced the original versions of Soundwave and Laserbeak.

* A Phase Shifter comes in really handy when you get locked out of your house... or cave.

* Smokescreen was once a guard for Alpha Trion, father-figure to Optimus Prime.

* Tanks.

* You're welcome.

* Megatron's really happy about his new citadel. Must have a hot oil tub.

* The speed of light is 670.616.629 miles per hour. This seems to be going a tad bit slower. -- [speaking in regards to the speed of Darkmount's fusion cannon's stream of energy it fired at the U.S. military]

* Jasper is a fictional town in Nevada.

* No real towns were destroyed in the making of this TV show.

* Robots rarely need to sit down, but when they do they prefer a big throne.

* Knock Out must be getting faster at replacing Decepticon arms. It took him an entire episode to replace Starscream's in season one.

* It's really hard to register sarcasm over the phone.

* Little known fact: Internet cat videos bring out the best in Megatron.

* Megatron enjoys backing up words with actions. Usually of the painful variety.

* Meteor showers make good cover stories. A single meteor can unleash enough energy to shatter windows.

* A load of horse pucky currently sells for about $1.20 a pound online. Plus shipping.

* Soundwave is the go-to Con for intercepting cellphone signals. He also picks up over 200 channels of commercial-free radio.

* Bumblebee and Raf became instant friends on season one. In part because Raf is the only human who understands Bee's beeps.

* But it's the clear coat that really makes him shine. -- [speaking in regards to Raf's comment about Bee's new paint job fooling enemy scanners]

* Frank Welker records actual words written for Bumblebee which are later replaced with sound effects.

* The Rocky Mountains stretch from just south of Alaska to New Mexico, covering almost 3000 miles.

* This is why it's important to wear your seatbelt. You never know when your Cybertronian SUV is going to stop suddenly.

* In Europe, Autobots drive on the other side of the road.

* Chicks dig scars -- [speaking in regards to Starscream scraping the captured Wheeljack across the chest]

* Knock Out is one of the few senior Decepticons to take an automotive form on Earth.

* Smokescreen first arrived on Earth in a stole Decepticon escape pod.

* Smokescreen has a tendency to ignore orders. Lucky for Optimus he did this time, too.

* He means "borrow". -- [speaking in regards to Smokescreen snagging up the Phase Shifter back on Cybertron]

* Across all Transformers series, comics, and movies, Optimus has been mortally wounded 16 times.

* In general, Transformers don't have a concept of gender. Arcee is one of the few female exceptions.

* In the original 1984 series, Soundwave took the form of a cassette player.

* Laserbeak was a cassette tape that popped out of Soundwave's chest.

* Arcee has the ability to project a holographic 'rider' when Jack's not on board.

* Whew, that was close. -- [referring to Jack dodging the fallen signal tower]

* This is one trailer that Optimus is never going to tow -- [because the Cons wrecked it]

* Worst. Riddle. Ever.

* Vehicons come in several varieties. These guys transformed from Cybertronian jets. It might be a good time to change back.

* So we're all aware that this is Jack's fault, right?

* This is Cybertron. It's the original home planet of the Autobots and the Decepticons. It used to look a lot nicer than this.

* The Apex Armor is one of the relics of the Thirteen Original Primes. While wearing it a Transformer is nearly indestructible.

* The AllSpark is the mystical energy that gives all Autobots and Decepticons life.

* A spacebridge allows Decepticons to travel between two points in space. Ratchet developed the scaled-down GroundBridge for Autobot use on Earth.

* Enter Shockwave.

* He is definitely not a good guy.
If you've read Exodus, wanna read the War For Cybertron comic? PM me.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Sabrblade
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Firepower: 10
Skill: 9

Re: Transformers Prime Beast Hunters Season Premeire Tonight on the Hub

Postby Hotrodimust » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:07 am

Sabrblade wrote:
Hotrodimust wrote:
wait for it wrote:
They only show predakings next episode and only in dragon mode



A good reason people might not be in this thread is because they are afraid of spoilers.

Ahem.

How about mentioning in the thread that there will be no spoilers or "HEY SPOILER COMING!" so that we don't walk into grenades like this one.

It's not really a spoiler because they show him in trailers and the first 3 episodes are all over YouTube.
It is a spoiler when several people refuse to watch subpar fuzzy quality videos with terrible out of sync freaky audio and prefer to watch the show in HD quality.

It's also a spoiler to say "only Predaking" shows and "only in dragon mode" when the trailers do not reveal whether or not he appears alone or if he transforms. WE know he's alone and doesn't transform becuase WE saw the episodes, but THEY don't know that because THEY haven't seen them since THEY prefer HD quality. THAT is why it is a spoiler.

The videos I watched were in HD and saying predakings was only in dragon mode isn't a spoiler. Every trailer showed him its more of a disappointment more than anything
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