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Looking back at the 86 movie...

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Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Lastjustice » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:49 am

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Ive been a long time fan of transformers. One thing I never got was the G1 movie back in 86. To me even as a kid just felt like a major fast forward in the series from season 2, and skipped so much detail and left so many questions. Like 20 some years later cybertron is somehow viable to live on(and the decepticons are somehow great shots and deadly, and the autobots all got amazingly fragile), despite that being whole reason they bailed in the first place.

Then they tossed in a dozen new characters, which if the idea was for them to replace the older cast, I feel like they could had them origined better than the movie, as may be we could warmed up to them more before they pushed the older ones out of the picture. Which alot of them have such odd alt modes, and a few have these super annoying speaking gimmicks. (wheelie and Blurr in particular spring to mind) Theres a few post movie characters I like such as ultra magnus(whcih if the junkions could fix him so easily, why didnt they jsut bring prime and all others there too.), and the technobots, but theres likely more I had mixed or negative feelings toward especially with how they sent off our previous heroes only made that worse.

I mean they offed them so mercilessly like they thought they were telling a horror movie(it was a kids movie you jerks), as seemed like it was written by evil corporate execs (which Im sure it was mostly mandate as wiki talks about them wanting to have everyone from 84 lined up and mowed down)not fans of the series. Just comes off as terrible fanfic in this area only, its actually canon. This aspect really turned me off to series on top of all subpar stand ins we got.

Then they go and Retcon stuff like the matrix of leadership which never been mentioend before into existence and Unicron. Which supposedly was such a massive threat to planets you think there be a tad more awareness of him as first planet he smokes seemed to know fully aware of him. Which just luckily the matrix happens kill him which he some how knows despite never actually encountered, but isnt smart enough make it his primary target to destroy earlier.

The actual plot seemed so incoherent as the autobots and decepticons just seem to randomly bounce around. (like what the heck were autobots doing by quints homeworld anyways if they were on their path to cybertron.) Theres a ton of plotholes, big enough for unicron to fit thru. Granted most kids stuff wasnt meant to be analyzed by adults, like much of the original series, but didnt feel like they even tried kick it up a notch despite being a major motion picture.

I ultimately recently rewatched it, and still feel mixed feelings as I dont like the direction it took the series in, as even the character Rodimus prime (what heck is Rodimus, thats not even a word, as just further how much of a placeholder he was for prime. Atleast as hot rod his name was alright.) said himself how inferior he was to prime, and said what most fans were thinking. Making him being one who got the legend killed, all that more assine he became the leader. It be like Jason Todd getting batman killed and taking over as batman. Its really an insult and outrage when you think about it.

I see people who are older fans praise it, which leaves me confuses as like did they forget what a crud came with it. Season 3 had some really lame episodes seemed even more aimless than the movie as seemed like they lost any sense of where they wanted to go, as the decepticons were in shambles rest of the series(which they worked as the quints pawns alot of times.), and the autobots would just bounce around space may be involing them or not. Or go fight some random wizard or whatever they felt like that episode.

Sure season 1 and 2 had their so so episodes, but atleast the cast was very likeable for most part.(and it didnt bring back our heroes for kicks and kill them off again liek dark awakening..oh lets pour salt in the wounds here) I feel like that has alot to do with my resentment of the movie is it hollowed old favorites so cruely and pave the way for alot of new stuff I didnt like.

Its not just me though, as I talk about season 3 stuff, most my friends seemed to blocked it out of their memories as the characters were so forgettable. Since the 2007 movie came out I d been looking back on alot of the older stuff, as bring back out my love for transformers.

While i dont hate Hot rod with the buring passion I used to. (I kind of feel sorry for him as an adult as he was doomed to not be liked with how he was pushed into the series.) I cant say I like what they did with the movie and the series, as it helped fuel the fire that took out sunbow which made the series. Who knows if the movie never got made may be there would been several seasons of G1 instead of 3 and finale in rebirth. (which was yet another lets sell toys galore moment, and the autobots seemed job extra hard at almost every turn. And managed to seemingly kill off yet another favorite of mine the aerial bots, though showed them at the end, so may be the energy burst from vector sigma somehow revived them fron what the cons turning them into a rocket or something.)

I can hope the revenge of the fallen doesnt start to mirror the 86 movie, and off a ton of autobots to make room for more new toys too. Im not against them killing some characers, as I know bound happen. (like poor poor jazz.He ironcially died same way my toy did from G1 when i accidentally broke him in half mistransforming him.) but I prefer not be done quit like the 86 film did. I dont care see that again. Or unicron, dont bring transformer gods into the movies.

Im not saying the 2007 movie didnt have its flaws, but I feel like peopels nostaliga goggles were on for that movie, as I really dont understand why they say was so awesome. The fact if flopped in box office seemed like a sign that really wasnt that great. (shrugs) I dont expect people agree with me, but I d figure Im not alone with their nerdrage toward how they handled the movie and post seasons either.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Counterpunch » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:54 am

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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Lastjustice » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:03 am

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Counterpunch wrote:All tidy now.


Yeah thanks, I like get people in my discussion, but it seemed spawn out of control. Was like oh no, Im going look so obnoxious repeatedly posting it. I havent been here long, I didnt realize you guys would react so quickly hehe.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Counterpunch » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:15 am

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Lastjustice wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:All tidy now.


Yeah thanks, I like get people in my discussion, but it seemed spawn out of control. Was like oh no, Im going look so obnoxious repeatedly posting it. I havent been here long, I didnt realize you guys would react so quickly hehe.


S'all good.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby SJ21 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:46 am

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I agree with you on most of you view on the 86 movie.

I was really upset when they started killing off autobots. I remember I kept repeating "Why?" I remember sitting on the floor, literally in tears yelling "NO!" when Prime died. Being 7 years old i didn't understand the whole buisness end of things. I just knew they killed all of my favorite characters. The plot holes aren't really plot holes to a 7 year old.

Now, looking back at the movie, I enjoy watching it. There is a pretty good plot going through the whole movie, even though it isn't thoroughly explained (why wasn't anyone aware of Unicron, the matrix, scale issues with characters, etc.)

Even though I enjoy the movie, I do not like where it took the series. I didn't like most of the new characters. The Junkions creeped me out at the time, Cup was old and looked dumb, and Wheelie was the most annoying thing I had ever seen. I still wish Grimlock would have eaten him. Ultra Magnus was cool, but he was not Prime. I loved Hot Rod, but hated Rodimus Prime (still do to this day).

Until I bought the DVD sets of the cartoon series (last year), I could only remember one speciffic episode that took place after the movie. All of the characters I loved from the show were dead. The only episode that I could remember was the one where they found Prime and he came back to life. I look at the movie as the end of one Transformers, and the post-movie series as a completely different thing.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby BigRobotAlligator » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:49 pm

I totally have nostalgia goggles on for the old TF movie.

For me there are a few good parts (very good parts at that), but also a lot of good memories.

Even as a kid some stuff didn't really gel for me such as the dinobots becoming the comic relief instead of being big and tough, The Universally reviled Wheelie, The cool Hotrod becoming the not so cool Rodiums, the dancing on Junkion and so on.

As a kid I almost found season 3 and 4 unwatchable, the animation took a dive, the voices for most of the characters were vastly irritating, terrible characterizations, and so on and so forth.

As an adult I appreciate some of the more outrageous plot lines a bit more, like when Galvatron went to that rehabilitation planet, that;s a funny one for me.

Still though, despite it's flaws the 86 movie is and always will be my favorite movie/ I've cleared easily over 200 viewings with many more to come. If anything it's a bunch of cool fight scenes and a great matinee on a Saturday afternoon with my best childhood friend.

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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Optimum Supreme » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:52 pm

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The movie is pure awesome at parts. The battle of Autobot City, not going so well, then Prime rolls into action and shows why he's always gonna be the best Autobot EVAR!

Megs getting reformatted into Galvy then taking out Starscream was great too. I mean, Starscream was a great character, but what better way to show Galvy is more than just Megs with a shiny new body than to have him finally take out someone Megs had put up with for millions of years?

It had a great soundtrack too. I actually bought the CD. Speaking of buying, I actually bought this move three times (one VHS and two DVD versions), which is three times more than I've bought the live/cgi movie so far.

Sure, not everything about the movie was perfect, but overall, it was a good time watching it.

You could actually see all the action, unlike the newer movie, with the camera all over the place herky jerky so you can't keep up (I really hope the sequel is better in that regard). And hey, this one doesn't have any lame masturbation jokes.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Technically weird » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:09 pm

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In the following days of watching this movie, I was depressed, and I never saw transformers the same way. In Season three, towards the way end, I started not to mind Rodi prime. Then they just brought a crappy version of Optimus back for 1 episode to suck some more stuff.
I mean REALLY? WTF!!!!!!!! Woah, sorry...
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Sledge » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:22 pm

WTF? Optimus suck? He saved the universe! What more do you want?
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Lastjustice » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:36 pm

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Sledge wrote:WTF? Optimus suck? He saved the universe! What more do you want?


I believe hes talking about dark awakening. The episode I referred to in my post, where prime is brought back to life and found by the gang. He then is a zombie, with alot of damage still, and turns on everyone in a trap by the quints. He eventually regains control and gets back the matrix to hot rod, and seems to die yet again. The whole thing felt like pouring salt in the wound for the fans.

In rebirth later when prime was "offically" back he seems not be all there, like he was still broken. In his intial return he was the prime we knew, in this he just wasnt all there. And Hot rod seem be more or less leading the team with brainstorm(which magically popped out of no where) and spike.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby SJ21 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:16 am

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Watching the dark awakening episode creeped me out for years. It was horrible to see a beat-up, partially destroyed Prime. Then to have him kill himself at the end of the episode was just too much. It just wasn't right.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Sledge » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:44 am

Lastjustice wrote:I believe hes talking about dark awakening. The episode I referred to in my post, where prime is brought back to life and found by the gang. He then is a zombie, with alot of damage still, and turns on everyone in a trap by the quints. He eventually regains control and gets back the matrix to hot rod, and seems to die yet again. The whole thing felt like pouring salt in the wound for the fans.

In rebirth later when prime was "offically" back he seems not be all there, like he was still broken. In his intial return he was the prime we knew, in this he just wasnt all there. And Hot rod seem be more or less leading the team with brainstorm(which magically popped out of no where) and spike.

In Rebirth he suffered through not really being a main character. At a guess, I'd say the story was written before it was known Prime would return, so he was shoehorned in. But he kicked ass in Dark Awakening and TRoOP.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Lastjustice » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:51 am

Motto: ""Laws only exist when there's someone there to enforce them.""
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In Rebirth he suffered through not really being a main character. At a guess, I'd say the story was written before it was known Prime would return, so he was shoehorned in. But he kicked ass in Dark Awakening and TRoOP.


Well Rebirth had the autobots jobbing like crazy. All 3 combiner teams didnt use their combined forms during the entire thing, which all 3 appeared. The aerial bots got punked hard. Like oh look what these new guys do, was a massive sell desperate push at the end. Even guys who only appeared for 1 scene kicked but off their newness.

Prime just reflected that, as he was there mostly to push whole plot for the plasma generator than do anything productive. Hod rod was almost quasi leader for rebirth since everything seemed revolve around him and new guys.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby typh0id » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:08 am

I personally loved the movie and still do...It certainly has its fair share of silliness but it IS a children's film after all...

Now as for how I felt about the shift in series...It's strange because from the time Transformers started in '84, they were damn-near my whole life...And Optimus Prime was the ultimate hero to me and I was very attached to ALL the characters from the first two seasons...But believe it or not, I had no trouble accepting the new crew...I loved all the new characters (Wheelie, excluded) and oddly I had no problem accepting Rodimus as the new leader...I wouldn't say I liked him MORE than Optimus, but he was a neat character to me anyway...Sure, it was a bit jarring to see all my heroes get offed a few minutes into the film but at the same time it filled me with a sense of awe to see something so heavy...The Decepticons were actually evil and not just corny!

And after all these years, I think that's really what it was...That movie introduced concepts to me that I'd never seen before in a cartoon...I can remember so vividly how big and dark that movie seemed...It was creepy but also exciting...

I have no delusions about the corporate intentions behind that movie...But whether they meant to or not they really threw me for a loop...Even at a young age I was able to recognize Hot Rod's struggle...Being forced into a role he really didn't ask for and one that even went against his nature, at that...Obviously I didn't see all that quite so articulately but I always had a soft-spot for Rodimus beause I never forgot that Hot Rod was still inside there...

Of course the death of Optimus was a big one...I really don't even need to cover that because nearly every kid who was into TFs back then was affected by that in some way...I remember being pretty amazed but not really upset...Again, it was something I'd never seen before in a cartoon and more than anything it excited me...So much change occurred in that movie I felt like I was witnessing some really big events..And from a kid's perspective, I was...Cartoons just never changed back then, at least not in any profound and lasting way...This was totally new...

The reformatting of Megatron and co. was also really cool to me...I LOVED Galvatron and his new lieutenants...I loved seeing Starscream FINALLY get his ass kicked...

The biggest element for me though was definately Unicron...Unicron was essentially the Devil of the Transformers universe...The ultimate evil that spread darkness and corruption everywhere he went...That was DEFINATELY something I had not seen before and I remember being so intimidated by Unicron, almost frightened...That character really amazed and bewildered me...

I loved Season 3...There were some **** episodes but that was true for the whole series...I loved how Season 3 picked up right from the movie and everything was effected by the events of it...It was so eerie that Unicron's head was orbiting cybertron...It was unnerving watching Galvatron get more and more insane while the Decepticon ranks were in ruin...I felt real sympathy for Rodimus Prime trying so hard to be the leader Optimus was and failing frequently...And the 'Dark Awakening' episode was nothing short of chilling...That one disturbed me for awhile...I also remember being pretty creepified by 'Starscream's Ghost' where Metroplex gets blinded...


I guess the bottom line is this...Yeah the movie tore the existing TF universe to shreds, yeah it was made by business men trying to push their new products, and yeah it and the succeeding season had their share of quality issues...But for what it was, it took some drastically bold steps for a children's program and once it made it's choices, it ran with them til the end (save for bringing Optimus back at the last minute)...I really respect that and still look at it as a real landmark in cartoons...

I loved it then and I still love it today...
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Lastjustice » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:50 pm

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Sure, it was a bit jarring to see all my heroes get offed a few minutes into the film but at the same time it filled me with a sense of awe to see something so heavy...The Decepticons were actually evil and not just corny!


Yeah but this contradicted everything prior. We d seen chaarcters like Hound get blown to bits in one of the first episodes, made no sense for what they did in the opening on the movie to prove so fatal in 1-2 shots. I mean if you had kill someone, make a bunch of D listers like the comics did for the job. Guys like Ironhide had take far better and kept going to be punked like that. (I mean like the planet unicron wasted in the begining, no one really cared it got offed as wasnt important to story other than a power demostration.)

I dont mind the mind set of the decepticons being depiced as more evil, and ruthless, just it wasnt the tone the entire series had as they were no deaths outside of the movie(besides prime shown dying again in dark awakening which prime was basically a zombie at the time, and later revived, and possibly the aerial bots in rebirth, which is unknown for sure since was off panel whatever happened) So it seemed lame for them do it in that regard.It wasnt what we signed up for at the time, like watching a comedy, and it sudden turns to a horror movie, like what, I didnt go to see this.I dont think ever should been done. Even GI joe realized this was a bad call, and made sure duke survived.


The reformatting of Megatron and co. was also really cool to me...I LOVED Galvatron and his new lieutenants...I loved seeing Starscream FINALLY get his ass kicked...


Again I thought this was a horrible mode. (which main reason for screamer getting axed as chris latta, since he needed regularly bailed out of jail.) Even looking at the new movie, they were at al loss decide who to bring in as only truly rememberable decepticons were starscream, megatron and soundwave(and his tapes but they re a dual package). Sure there were few that stood out, but those 3 were the decepticons, heart and soul. Taking them out it was never the same as before.


Galvatron just came off as disfunctional, not really bad ass. (besides remotely stable in the movie, but the movie he actted like he was just megatron with a new body still.) Post movie, he was a mess. His voice wasnt as good, his body looked stupid (purple and orange is a funky color scheme.) Even his own troops wanted him dead openly in webworld, like how the mighty had fallen. All guys before never would done that to megatron.Megatron was actually love by his troops, and really only pounded on starscream who usually deserved it heh.

Scourage was an awful looking transformer(his alt mode was ok, but I hated his beard and claws). And Cyclonus was ok. I didnt mind cyclonus as much(he was still funky but tolerrable), but scourage felt like the worst replacement character for their new trinity. Soundwave was still there, but didnt take center stage like he used too as cyclonus filled the yes man role then.

The biggest element for me though was definately Unicron...Unicron was essentially the Devil of the Transformers universe


Even as a kid the the whole lack of explanation irked the heck out of me, I mean some planet eatting piece of crap going around destorying everything, and no one so much made it a point to scramble together the universe to stop it?, thats freaking braindead. Unicron (and his name waaay too close to unicorn , like pansy) always came off as a bit lame to me.(especially way he basically had galavtron all tools to reclaim leadership.) Especially at the end when the dinobots were fighting him Even before the matrix was used he seem be taking plenty of damage from their attacks.(which hot rod tossed galvatron thru side of him.) Lead me to believe he just had been attacked by the combine power of both autobots and decepticons they could wrecked him with that rather than a plot device. I think that been a cooler finale than what we got.

As entire thing seemed derailed form what could ultimately been a far better plot and story.( and made ten times more sense.) At the begining they had the autobots poised try take back cybertron. Why not made the entire movie just focus on the libertration of cybertron then instead, as that seemed be glossed over at the end. When unicron died the autobots magically just had control over it again despite the cons being there in force.

Over all theres several directions they could gone in that been much better and stronger stories than what they gave us while achieving the same level of change.(if whole goal was o introduce a new cast, you can do that without fragging the old one as they did all way before hand, and GI joe did the whole way thru as they had the flint era without needing kill duke or general hawk.) My ultimate summary is this movie will always be thumbs down for wasted potential done something great and wasted use of awesome characters.I dont hate as much as I used to, but I dont think I'll ever love it.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby SentinelA » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:42 pm

I rewatched the movie last weekend and noticed something at the end credits. They did a credit for the voice of GEARS. I was like WTF, Gears wasn't even in the movie. Does anyone know anything about this?
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby typh0id » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:59 pm

I DO understand everything you're saying...But you have to keep in mind that plot was NEVER at the forefront of the production of this movie...The guys who made it, themselves, have admitted it was just a giant commercial to sell the new figures...Yet despite that (and its many resulting flaws) it still managed to drop some pretty significant changes on not only Transformers, but kid's cartoons in general...And as I said, that's just something that didn't happen back then...It was very daring on their part...


Lastjustice wrote:
typh0id wrote:Sure, it was a bit jarring to see all my heroes get offed a few minutes into the film but at the same time it filled me with a sense of awe to see something so heavy...The Decepticons were actually evil and not just corny!


Yeah but this contradicted everything prior. We d seen chaarcters like Hound get blown to bits in one of the first episodes, made no sense for what they did in the opening on the movie to prove so fatal in 1-2 shots.



That's true...But perfect continuity was not something that really mattered to a bunch of kids...


Lastjustice wrote:I dont mind the mind set of the decepticons being depiced as more evil, and ruthless, just it wasnt the tone the entire series had as they were no deaths outside of the movie(besides prime shown dying again in dark awakening which prime was basically a zombie at the time, and later revived, and possibly the aerial bots in rebirth, which is unknown for sure since was off panel whatever happened) So it seemed lame for them do it in that regard.It wasnt what we signed up for at the time, like watching a comedy, and it sudden turns to a horror movie, like what, I didnt go to see this.I dont think ever should been done.



Sure characters had taken worse beatings and lived through it...Sure the Decepticons had never been really portrayed as ruthless and bloodthirsty before that point...But (and maybe this is just me) this portrayal seemed instantly more fitting...It's like the Decepticon's always talked this big game but never actually DID anything...I thought it made sense to FINALLY see them living up to their image...I'm sure it DID turn a lot of people off or rub them the wrong way, but I just remember being enthralled...Because where you say it seemed to go from a comedy to a horror, I felt like it should have always BEEN a "horror" (and of course I don't mean that LITERALLY...just in context to your metaphor) The movie starts off by explosively smacking you upside the head with the realization that all bets are off in from here on out...That was SO exciting!


Lastjustice wrote:
typh0id wrote:The reformatting of Megatron and co. was also really cool to me...I LOVED Galvatron and his new lieutenants...I loved seeing Starscream FINALLY get his ass kicked...


Again I thought this was a horrible mode. (which main reason for screamer getting axed as chris latta, since he needed regularly bailed out of jail.) Even looking at the new movie, they were at al loss decide who to bring in as only truly rememberable decepticons were starscream, megatron and soundwave(and his tapes but they re a dual package). Sure there were few that stood out, but those 3 were the decepticons, heart and soul. Taking them out it was never the same as before.


I agree to this as well...And Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave are STILL some of my favourite characters today...There was just something about the new characters (and not just Galvatron and his boys, but all the new characters in general) I really liked...they were all so much more futuristic and the colors were all new...We'd seen the same old stuff for two years at that point and I was thrilled to see something new...That doesn't mean I suddenly hated all the old stuff, I just thought it was a breath of fresh air...I had always been intrigued with the cybertronian aspect of the Transformers that had been really downplayed until this point...

And as much as I loved Starscream, it had gotten to the point of utter rediculousness that he'd gotten away with being a treacherous backstabber for SO long without punishment...Sure you can theorize and justify the reasons for that all you want externally, but in the show itself, he just betrayed Megatron over and over and Megatron didn't do a damn thing about it...

Then, Megatron gets reformatted in the new "by-the-balls" tone of the movie, and the FIRST thing he does is the very thing he should have done AGES ago...I guess where you see the movie as a betrayal of all the notions that had been previously set in place, I see the movie as liberating the series from the circular rut it had fallen into...And that's not something I even realized had happened UNTIL I saw the movie...The series was in a bit of a holding pattern and not really moving forward until this point...


Lastjustice wrote:Galvatron just came off as disfunctional, not really bad ass. (besides remotely stable in the movie, but the movie he actted like he was just megatron with a new body still.) Post movie, he was a mess. His voice wasnt as good, his body looked stupid (purple and orange is a funky color scheme.) Even his own troops wanted him dead openly in webworld, like how the mighty had fallen. All guys before never would done that to megatron.Megatron was actually love by his troops, and really only pounded on starscream who usually deserved it heh.


This is what I loved most about season three...The events of the movie completely shattered everything, ESPECIALLY the decepticon army who ended up scattered to the wind, so to speak...Then "Megatron" comes back and they all try to pick things up again but it quickly becomes apparent that Galvatron is a nutjob and now they don't know WHAT the hell to do...I really liked that...And as for everyone previously "loving" Megatron, I always found that to be inconsistant...It seemed to me that was supposed to be a big difference between the Autobots and Decepticons...The Autobots would always persevere because they were loyal to Prime, their cause, and each other...The Decepticons were destined for failure because they all had their own agendas and were constantly trying to climb over each other for power...At least, that's the impression that was given...But it was never portrayed consistantly (except with Starscream)...


Lastjustice wrote:
typh0id wrote:The biggest element for me though was definately Unicron...Unicron was essentially the Devil of the Transformers universe


Even as a kid the the whole lack of explanation irked the heck out of me, I mean some planet eatting piece of crap going around destorying everything, and no one so much made it a point to scramble together the universe to stop it?



I think it's that very lack of origin that created such an air of terror about him...He was like this eternally evil force that could show up out of nowhere and detroy everything...Personally, I think too much origin at that point would have ruined the effect...And until he faced off against the mighty Autobots (who remained the heroes of the story) nobody COULD stop him...That's what made the whole thing so exciting and intense...

Stories like this frequently have some type of foe that is really hardcore but hasn't been heard of until its point of entry...




Though I had absolutely nothing against the Transformers to this point (was and would continue to be my alltime favourite cartoon), I feel the movie really kicked the series in the ass to wake it up a bit...I can completely understand the points you've made, but I was just effected differently by the whole thing...As a young kid, it was a HUGE deal to me and for reasons I wouldn't even understand until much later, I fully and willingly embraced all the new directions in which the Movie threw the series...



And by the way, this is the most entertaining debate I've had in quite some time...I guess that's kind of pathetic, but whatever :P
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Lastjustice » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:37 am

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DO understand everything you're saying...But you have to keep in mind that plot was NEVER at the forefront of the production of this movie...The guys who made it, themselves, have admitted it was just a giant commercial to sell the new figures...Yet despite that (and its many resulting flaws) it still managed to drop some pretty significant changes on not only Transformers, but kid's cartoons in general...And as I said, that's just something that didn't happen back then...It was very daring on their part...


What you saw as daring, I saw them doing it solely for excuse make new figures and not cause was invovative. They were shocked at the backlash they took when prime died, as peter cullen himself didnt realize fans loved him as much as they did till then. If they knew we d reacted that way they d never done it. They just figured kids get over it or something as the wiki even talked about them wanting have the entire line of pre movie guys taken out in a gauntlet style run against each other. They didnt seem understand why fans were fans till what happened in its aftermath. Theyd pushed any harder they might alienated the entire fan base and killed the franchise. Which the movie bombed likely to word of mouth(mom 1, dont take your kids see transformers, jimmy didnt stop crying for a week, Mom2, oh my goodness, I wont do that then. I picture were dozens of conversations like that which our parents were ones who had deal with the aftermath and bought the toys so bad move.), and received horrible reviews.Which likely caused the studio who made the series to tank.


That's true...But perfect continuity was not something that really mattered to a bunch of kids...


Consistency was always a pet peeve of mine. Even as a kid. I got annoyed at the fact numbers between 10-19 didnt follow a constient pattern. (ironically my nephew whos practically my clone felt the same way heh.) I notice stuff like that, imediately was like hey, why did those shots kill ironhide, whos entire gimmick was he was a hard to kill guy die like he was glass joe. (same with brawn.) No that just served make me mad as a kid.


Sure characters had taken worse beatings and lived through it...Sure the Decepticons had never been really portrayed as ruthless and bloodthirsty before that point...But (and maybe this is just me) this portrayal seemed instantly more fitting.


That be fitting if the entire show before hand and after didnt contradict it. The comics had that level of death on both the bots and cons sides frequently. (sounds like you d been better off reading those than watching the show.) Was like the heroes had gotten issued faulty plot armor for the movie and issued unkillable status in everything else. I fail see why movies are agreen light for death considering it didnt happen really outside of it.


Which the decepticons became an even bigger joke post movie than they were before hand. They were basically the quints dogs cause they were so broken and worn down. They might had one shining moment of glory at autobot city(which the autobots, despite calling it autobot city, seemed lack a number of heavy hitters, as well as primes back up team. Like how convient for the plot for characters to die since the protectorbots,omega supreme, metroplex or aerialbots weren't there or dozens of other autobots who would easily won that fight. Heck the earths goverments didnt even get involved despite having planes and weapons capable downing a transformer by then.) , but they became less than that all way up till rebirth, the closet they ever got to winning again.

I'm sure it DID turn a lot of people off or rub them the wrong way, but I just remember being enthralled


You might be cool with shock value deaths,(I want to see rampant death I'd watched a horror movie. Not a kids show based movie.) Im not. Alot of people werent in this instant. Im ok with well done deaths, as the characters death should be as big as they were in life. None of the characters were remotely honored, as they were treated like speedbumps to a new season.

Not say I can have a death happen, beast wars is a good example of death done right. All characters we fleshed out well and when they went it usually was in a way that they died doing what they did best. Only quick deaths in the series were scorponok and terrasaur, which since no one seemed mind they werent revived, though scorponoks death seemed pointless since he was replace by yet another scropion character.

Beyond that dinobot was an example of a character meant to die. I loved dinobot, but I didnt want to see his death reversed. He went out in a blaze of glory. Which it wasnt purely convient for the plot either as beast wars established characters could potentially die at any time, just didnt happen all the time. It was a consistent tone that was kept the entire show as wasnt out of left field.


The movie starts off by explosively smacking you upside the head with the realization that all bets are off in from here on out...That was SO exciting!


Funny I was pretty ticked with in a short time of seeing it. You very notion all bets are off is contradicted by the fact no one else died the whole freaking movie besides old characters in the begining. What you got excited about was basically a lie cause rest of the movie wasnt even remotely close to that intensity. Only new character to die was unicron(which he sort of survived as a head thru the following series) and ultramagnus who was imediately revived. I suppose you cna include the guy from the poor hapless planet they seemed know who unicron was but did nothing to prepare against him before he seemingly offed their world(which that right there warrents a ton of freaking explantion how any race can be stupid enough to know a planet killing critter is out there and do nothing. Be like the people of japan knowing the US was going bomb them and just hung out for the fun of it.) And sharkacons which were basically mindless drones, so no one cared they got smashed.

really liked...they were all so much more futuristic and the colors were all new...We'd seen the same old stuff for two years at that point and I was thrilled to see something new...That doesn't mean I suddenly hated all the old stuff, I just thought it was a breath of fresh air...I had always been intrigued with the cybertronian aspect of the Transformers that had been really downplayed until this point...


I always hated all new characters alt modes. Like what the hell was Kup supposed to be.(and what kind of name is Kup? That along with rodimus prime are two of the dumbest names in the new batch of characters.) They litterally were a bunch of 80s stereotypes with their bright neon colors, psuendo concepts of what the future would be.(which you could likely suggest the cars the new characters were actually intended to represent what humans were supposed be driving at that time) Complete with spike and daniel sporting the jetsons outfits and jet board.

I understand why there likely be transformers who never went to earth and wouldnt have earth based alt modes, but at the same time what they gave them were so lame. Ultra magnus and Hot rod were only things looked like was based off something in real life. Rest were just too odd and different for their own good.

Which the fact you dont see them making more transformers in the same vein kind of shows you they werent well received. All newer ones tend have very limited quasi-future/cybertronian rides in them. For most part those tend stick out like a sore thumd and feel out of sych with the rest of the set.

I dont like change for sake of change. You seem to, as you the ideal kid see this movie and whatever happened afterwards. I wasnt. I was content with them further exploring things in the present setting and working their way thru that as there was alot of thnigs that could been done with in that. Again their whole lets off the old and make the new was the driving compenoent behind it, so logic and good story writing werent. Why no other series really does that cause its a bad idea do what this movie did to a series. Only thnig remotely close to mirroring it was beast war machines(too massive of a change, removing too much of the previous cast....awful new forms..), which also horribly flopped..notion the pattern.

...Sure you can theorize and justify the reasons for that all you want externally, but in the show itself, he just betrayed Megatron over and over and Megatron didn't do a damn thing about it...


Actually several decepticons thru out the series did the sme thing or backstabbed their way to power. I never got a different view of the cons as they were always out for number one most the time. In triple take over astrotrain, the constructicons , and blitzwing all betrayed megs. The insecticons basically turned on the decepticons and werent loyal to them at all. Octane and tripticon both betrayed galvatron. Motor master basically didnt follow orders accept when he felt like it. The combaticons had their own base off the ship, and swindle in particular didnt really give a crap about what megatron or the decepticons wanted. They all together almost destroyed the earth in bruticus' revenge. They were criminals against the decepticons in the first place, why their sparks were being held in the prison on cybertron.

Starscream was far from alone in this, which megatron keeping him in line was usually an easier way of keeping the rest of the herd at bay. For someone to one up megatron, they basically had to remove soundwave and starscream from his path to pull it off. Soundwave for his constant kissing of megs butt, and starscream wouldnt ever let anyone else take over but himself. He being one of the most powerful decepticons held the rest of the potential backstabbers at bay. Which tripletake over even furthers this point with the fact astrotrain and blitzwing make sure take out screamer with megs.

The decepticons ideals mean the strongest rule, then having a weakling second in command wouldnt make much sense. With in their own structure starscream makes perfect sense, as hes only doing what they re supposed to do. If megs cant keep him down then he shouldnt be leader is the way they look at it. Which if anything keeps him on his toes. Megs and starscream both have a use for each other, as starscream despite having a few windows over the series, picks his time to try usurp power. (during cosmic rust he could killed megs easily.)

So given all that, him blasting screamer dead in the movie didnt make much sense. Him coming back and taking over did. Him blowing up screamer, and having his shots proving less than effective against Hot rod is another glaringly instant of plot armor and weakness. I mean why would he hold back against hot rod? (which he takes a couple shots holding the matrix up alone.which later in the series hes shown be less powerful than prime is.)

Then "Megatron" comes back and they all try to pick things up again but it quickly becomes apparent that Galvatron is a nutjob and now they don't know WHAT the hell to do...


You wanted the villains to be menacing or not? you seem be the inconsistent one here. Galvatron drove the decepticons into the ground. Wasnt till the hate plague infected him and the matrix cleansed him did he seem have a remote semblance of being megatron and sane. (which likely why he was able to do anything remotely constructive in rebirth.)


really liked that...And as for everyone previously "loving" Megatron, I always found that to be inconsistant...It seemed to me that was supposed to be a big difference between the Autobots and Decepticons...The Autobots would always persevere because they were loyal to Prime, their cause, and each other...The Decepticons were destined for failure because they all had their own agendas and were constantly trying to climb over each other for power...At least, that's the impression that was given...But it was never portrayed consistantly (except with Starscream)...


Yes they were portrayed as fighting for their chance to advance as I mentioned above, but they they follow the strongest ruler, thats why they loved megs. He was what they wanted to be. (even starscream why he hated him so much.) They wanna advance but with too much chaos they d all rip apart themselves and get no where (look what happens on chaar after the loss of megatron and galavatron), so has be order for them to achieve anything. They follow orders well enough to feed their bellies. With a power vacuum with neither megatron or starscream to lead the cons lesser members all fought over scraps and were willing follow the quints cause they were so worn done. If theyd followed them long enough once they regained their bearings they went likely turned on them and taken the resource they had cause thats what decepticons do.

Which why they follow megatron, hes the strongest and usually got results of some kind, even when he was "losing" as his troops never straved which meant a chance grow stronger and advance. Under galvatron they did, and were being constantly beat down by even him.A recipe for failure. He was a horrible leader up till return of optimus prime. Only then did he seem be capable of leading again.


Stories like this frequently have some type of foe that is really hardcore but hasn't been heard of until its point of entry...


Which other thnigs that use that sort of thing are shonen jumps like DBZ. (they constantly had originless big bads) its a cheap tactic, and usually serves the whole next bigger bad guy to replace the old angle.

See my massive probelm with that is the planet he atatcked knew exactly what he was when he attacked. To fact he even told the autobots what he was when they were on the quints homeworld. If the whole deal was no world ever had any survivors to tell anyone else there was such a being, but he clearly had some logical process to what he did as he wasnt some rabid monster, so someone had to told them about unicron prior.

For them to done nothing and died is maddening. Id hope if there was ever some horrible planet killing being in the universe, other races had enough self preservation to try contact us or other worlds to try and kill it. That goes against the notion all life in the universe seems have engrained in it. Survive at any cost.

Whats even more outlandhish is fact seemingly the only thnig he claims can stop him is the matrix. (which also didnt exist till the movie.) How would he know that exactly, as he was described just a machine created by an insane inventer to wipe out the universe and make whatever he wanted in its place. Why would an invention made by this guy only be weak against something the guy didnt likely know existed in the first place? Which if the matrix was such a huge deal, why not oh, crush galvatron with it?

Which whole matrix killing unicron crosses another pet peeve of mine. I dont care for plot device heavy wins, but the worst kind of all, power of love/goodness kills bad guys wins are the lamest of all. The matrix basically unleashed good energy to kill unicorn, who wasnt evil incarnate just a big dumb machine to erase all life. I can deal with the idea of him just being a giant transformer (size of a planet seemed a bit over kill.) but magically evil and weakn against good, that i cant.

Ultimately I felt the very notion of that wizs all over the sci fi aspects of the show. (and the comics for that matter, as they made the whole trasformer gods out of primus and unicron. as makes ficiton mirror real life faiths too much.) I like my sci fi to stay sci fi. Having magical devices powered by goodness isnt sci fi.

Bottomline the matrix and unicron didnt fit into the previous story at all, and were a massive retcon.A very poor one at that.

Though I had absolutely nothing against the Transformers to this point (was and would continue to be my alltime favourite cartoon), I feel the movie really kicked the series in the ass to wake it up a bit...



Which you couldnt be further from the truth considering it killed the series off, yeah. (one of the heavy contributing factors anyways.) I dont question you re a fan, as I see you enjoy it, just I dont think you enjoy quite for reason I do.

Which i cant understand how you can even accuse a show only been on the air for two seasons such stagnation. Was two years, which comics are far worse about maintaining( as characters litterally wont stay dead) status qua than transformers ever was. It brought about change in the same way brand new day brought lack of change back.

I realize when i buy a car Im going have to eventually replace something, but if its everything all at once its a bad day. Thats what transformer did to its fans. Was like someone sideswiped your car on the highway and forced you buy a whole new car rather than just losing a few parts over the course of time. Might make an exciting story, but it isnt a way regularly operate.


Like i said they could created all changes they did without the destruction, they just opted to bastardize everythnig for their fans. I litterally would punch whoever it was that was who suggested it on behalf of ever parent that had put up with a crying kid, or the kids who came into the movie expecting to see their heroes ride off into sun set one more time a blow knock unicron into orbit. Thankfully for them they re likely too old for me warrent beating the daylights out of. Theyd still deserve it though.

If they made a justice league movie, and showed all older characters like superman get wasted viciously and introduced a bunch of so so to down right horrible replacements then it likely horribly bomb too. There d be massive fan outrage to say the least. People felt betrayed, mostly from stand point was no death before hand, or following. We didnt sign up for that.

...As a young kid, it was a HUGE deal to me and for reasons I wouldn't even understand until much later, I fully and willingly embraced all the new directions in which the Movie threw the series...


Im glad someone out there did, cause I sure as heck didnt. I like new characters(the technobots, springer, outside of his crappy alt modes, ultra magnus, broadside, hot rod as hot rod, and few others), as some good ones did exist after the movie, just not as many as I felt the series lost to get there.

This right here sums up alot of fans reactions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y (is swearing, dont watch at work.) Wasnt quite everything id ever wished for to happen in transformers, as in some othe reality someone decided make a movie sticking to original plot where optimus prime assemble a unit of new transformers from across the universe to mount an assault to liberate cybertron for good, and uses a ton of new guys and older ones together with no one dying or mention of unicron.


And by the way, this is the most entertaining debate I've had in quite some time...I guess that's kind of pathetic, but whatever


Long as you re enjoying it, I bring up stuff to provoke thoughts rather than provoke people heh.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Editor » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:53 am

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I really don't have the time right now to go into a huge rant about the movie, but..

If you have the DVD release that came out about 2 years ago, watch the extra materials because it does contain some great bit with the people behind the production, discussing a number of elements including the time line that it took to produce the movie, (which if it did take as long as it did, makes it a bit more understanding how the B.O.T. and C-minor episodes leeked thru if they were distracted working on the movie details)

But they state quite clearly:
A) That the way the Autobot city battle was done was to clear the slate of all the toys that were discontinued.
B) They had no idea that The reaction to the death of Prime and other characters would be taken as harshly as it was, but in their defence they had been working on the movie for a while and had no polling information available from the key demographic of what could happen.
C) Due to the different production timelines, they were already working on the resurection of Prime when the movie came out.

Lastjustice wrote:Even GI joe realized this was a bad call, and made sure duke survived.


Duke was suppose to die, and the change was made only after the fan backlash created by Primes death, luckily for them, producion was still at a point they were able to hack Duke recovering in time. However it goes without saying that any problems TF fans have with the TF Movie, that Joes fans have it worse. No TF retcon is as bad as the creation of Cobra-la-la-la.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby SJ21 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:38 am

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Whether you were a fan or not, it is amazing that this movie still garners this kind of discussion 20+ years later. Doesn't that make it a great movie?
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Technically weird » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:10 pm

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I was referring to prime in rebirth, he was brought back to do pretty much nothing and yeah, it was bad.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Editor » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:13 pm

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Nothing? Saving the universe from the Hate Plague is nothing?

Shawn only being able to save Liz at the end of Shawn of the Dead, is more than nothing, Prime cures millions of beings. How is this nothing?
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:57 pm

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Editor wrote:Nothing? Saving the universe from the Hate Plague is nothing?

Shawn only being able to save Liz at the end of Shawn of the Dead, is more than nothing, Prime cures millions of beings. How is this nothing?


I dont mean to sound rude but did you read that post clearly?????

Technically weird wrote:I was referring to prime in rebirth, he was brought back to do pretty much nothing and yeah, it was bad.


He said he's talking about Prime in "REBIRTH" and you went on to point out how he cured the hate plague....but that happened in "The return of Optimus Prime".

They are different episodes.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby Editor » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:26 pm

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ACK. #-o

Yes quite right. I had my episodes messed up, I really shouldn't post on days when I didn't get enough sleep the night before.

Sorry to TW, please disregard that post. SVK2000, no offence taken cause I screwed up, it happens.
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Re: Looking back at the 86 movie...

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:37 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Editor wrote:ACK. #-o

Yes quite right. I had my episodes messed up, I really shouldn't post on days when I didn't get enough sleep the night before.

Sorry to TW, please disregard that post. SVK2000, no offence taken cause I screwed up, it happens.


Dont worry....I think we've all done the same once or twice :grin:
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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sto_vo_kor_2000
Guardian Of Seibertron
Posts: 6930
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:01 am

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