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vegetacron wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Dude, those are G1 related comics, the movies however are a different entity, different characters, different Universe.

Dead Metal wrote:Oh no, seriously?! They borrowed ideas? Wow I thought it was Bay's idea to have two opposing factions of robots called Autobots and Decepticons that turn into stuff.

Its like a Scotish Korean!

I want the drugs this guy is on.

Lol, maybe you should stop with all the heavy use of weed/drink, maybe then you'd understand that using some ideas and concepts isn't the same as being the same.
They are still two different entities that take place in two different universes, following some of the same or similar rules but not all of them. Which makes them different from each other.

But seriously, stop with all that drink and drug use, it's not good for you.

And lets get back on topic, we've derailed Scatter's thread enough as is.

Yes it's based on a kid's cartoon and they have all sorts of products aimed towards kids. I buy my son the toys as he's a fan, but he's a Transformers fan of anything that is Transformers. While DOTM is very violent, and I'd probably not show this movie to my son, I'd expect other parents to make that choice as well. I say that meaning if they want to show them this movie, that is their choice. While standing in line I did see several younger kids waiting to see the movie. That is the parent's choice. That is where it should lie. I think some of the scenes for this movie would be acceptable, but where the people were being killed, I'd make sure my son wasn't watching.

dID the extreme violence, the tf "blood" and decapitations, and the crude unfunny humour add to the film.

because without them the movies could be acceptable for kids

shamone wrote:dID the extreme violence, the tf "blood" and decapitations, and the crude unfunny humour add to the film.

because without them the movies could be acceptable for kids

The first 2: yeah, they added to the movie.

shamone wrote:dID the extreme violence, the tf "blood" and decapitations, and the crude unfunny humour add to the film.

because without them the movies could be acceptable for kids

They didn't add anything to the film, but once again fan's of the franchise are complaining about things they ashed for. After the first one, they wanted more action, more Transformers. So ROTF, we get that. Then people want something more serious. So we get deadly serious and they still complain.

To me it seems like parents don't even care what their children are exposed to.

My experience in the theater was a bit sad. The movie seemed pretty standard, normal, etc. Around the time Ironhide was killed parents took their children out of the theater, Q's death added to this, and when Bumblebee had a gun up to his head I couldn't even count how many parents and children walked out of the theater.

It seems like the parents assumed the movie was all fine for their kids, they really should monitor what their children are exposed to.

While times have changed, there was an incident like this in the past. Remember Gremlins, the trailers and everything else made the film seem light hearted, then parents were horrified when their children were exposed to it.

Not too long ago this happened with The Dark Knight. Parents assumed one thing, "Ooooooooh Batman, it's for kids." Then all the kids saw The Joker stabbing people with pencils, and laughing maniaclly, and let's forget the dead guy in the Batman suit. Then parents would say, "This isn't what I want my children to see, it's your fault for doing this Christopher Nolan." I think this, It's your job to be a parent, make sure your children aren't exposed to this. Use the Parents Guide on IMBD.

Those are my thoughts.

HoundimusPrime wrote:To me it seems like parents don't even care what their children are exposed to.

My experience in the theater was a bit sad. The movie seemed pretty standard, normal, etc. Around the time Ironhide was killed parents took their children out of the theater, Q's death added to this, and when Bumblebee had a gun up to his head I couldn't even count how many parents and children walked out of the theater.

It seems like the parents assumed the movie was all fine for their kids, they really should monitor what their children are exposed to.

While times have changed, there was an incident like this in the past. Remember Gremlins, the trailers and everything else made the film seem light hearted, then parents were horrified when their children were exposed to it.

Not too long ago this happened with The Dark Knight. Parents assumed one thing, "Ooooooooh Batman, it's for kids." Then all the kids saw The Joker stabbing people with pencils, and laughing maniaclly, and let's forget the dead guy in the Batman suit. Then parents would say, "This isn't what I want my children to see, it's your fault for doing this Christopher Nolan." I think this, It's your job to be a parent, make sure your children aren't exposed to this. Use the Parents Guide on IMBD.

Those are my thoughts.

Good point. I had forgoten all the neg. hype that Dark Knight had gotten for Nolan's interpetation. Quite a few parents were in an uproar. And this also came from a franshise heavily marketed to kids. And while no, Batman didn't kill anyone, there were some serious phycoligicly destrubing parts that can be just as damaging as seeing an on screen death.

HoundimusPrime wrote:Not too long ago this happened with The Dark Knight. Parents assumed one thing, "Ooooooooh Batman, it's for kids." Then all the kids saw The Joker stabbing people with pencils, and laughing maniaclly, and let's forget the dead guy in the Batman suit. Then parents would say, "This isn't what I want my children to see, it's your fault for doing this Christopher Nolan." I think this, It's your job to be a parent, make sure your children aren't exposed to this. Use the Parents Guide on IMBD.

Something similar happened when Watchmen came out. Parents assumed since it was about superheroes it was "for kids."

Needless to say those were incredibly oblivious parents.

Yes, the movie franchise is for kids 13 to 18. It's not geared towards mature adult TF fans - never has been really. What better way to introduce the lil kiddos to enlisting? Hot cars, hot girls, blissful destruction.



This one's for you, General Motors and Lockheed Martin!

[DECEASED] wrote:Yes, the movie franchise is for kids 13 to 18. It's not geared towards mature adult TF fans - never has been really. What better way to introduce the lil kiddos to enlisting? Hot cars, hot girls, blissful destruction.

This one's for you, General Motors and Lockheed Martin!

the sheer fact it has no kids 13-18 with talking lines in the DOTM movie. means the DOTM movie is geared towards adults.

Noideaforaname wrote:

HoundimusPrime wrote:Not too long ago this happened with The Dark Knight. Parents assumed one thing, "Ooooooooh Batman, it's for kids." Then all the kids saw The Joker stabbing people with pencils, and laughing maniaclly, and let's forget the dead guy in the Batman suit. Then parents would say, "This isn't what I want my children to see, it's your fault for doing this Christopher Nolan." I think this, It's your job to be a parent, make sure your children aren't exposed to this. Use the Parents Guide on IMBD.

Something similar happened when Watchmen came out. Parents assumed since it was about superheroes it was "for kids."

Needless to say those were incredibly oblivious parents.

Aw hell! I can't imagine the looks on parents and children's faces when they took their kids to see Watchmen! Oh, I wish I could see their faces!!! It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling just thinking about the horror on their faces!

deathy wrote:the sheer fact it has no kids 13-18 with talking lines in the DOTM movie. means the DOTM movie is geared towards adults.

I truly wasn't aware of this fact. Enlightening. Geared toward mature adults though? Please reconsider, as I would hate to waste forum space in attempts to meet an understanding. You know what... disregard my previous posts altogether. I stand corrected.

Scatterlung wrote:Did I honestly miss a memo where Bay said he was targeting this at adults?

Kids are witnessing executions on screen. I don't know if things have just changed in kids media these days, but brutal executions as characters beg for their lives just isn't something I'd ever imagine seeing in something aimed at children.

And at the end of the day, this is JUST a movie. The argument around Prime being too brutal and too violent simply because "in a real war, you have to be" doesn't make sense in a film about giant alien robots that are supposed to entertain kids. It is just a film and as such can take creative leave from reality. So yes, in real life, the Decepticons might well execute unarmed prisoners as they plead for mercy, but that doesn't need to be shown so graphically.

That's what it is to be a director, to take your subject matter and translate it into the 'language of film', choosing what you show and how you show it. So fine, Bay decides to show the unapologetic brutality of combat, that's his creative decision and that's perfectly okay. But is it okay to expose kids to that concept?

It's not seeing a robot's processor getting blown out that disturbs me, its the denial of mercy. I've always found that generally disturbing and to see it now in what seems to be a film aimed at children disturbs me almost just as much.

Thoughts?

I see what your saying the film is pretty graphic for kids and there are quite a few curse words used as well but Transformers movies have always been that way. In the 1986 movie not only did they use the word "sh*t" but there was all kinds of brutal deaths which at that time in the 80's for a Cartoon was pretty graphic for kids. In todays time kids are exposed to so much now that the level of graphicness in the movie should not be so shocking to them. Video games, movies, music, TV, internet is full of sex and violence and gratuitous stuff. I remember long ago when you could not use the word "B*tch" on TV and now its used all the time. I mean really,.... kids are not that innocent. I know I wasn't. I knew about bad stuff as kid. I saw violence and heard cursing and I grew up fine. Its the way of our society. As long kids are taught the difference between right and wrong and reality and fiction.

deathy wrote:

[DECEASED] wrote:Yes, the movie franchise is for kids 13 to 18. It's not geared towards mature adult TF fans - never has been really. What better way to introduce the lil kiddos to enlisting? Hot cars, hot girls, blissful destruction.

This one's for you, General Motors and Lockheed Martin!

the sheer fact it has no kids 13-18 with talking lines in the DOTM movie. means the DOTM movie is geared towards adults.

so the star wars trilogy is geared for adults not kids too

HoundimusPrime wrote:To me it seems like parents don't even care what their children are exposed to.

My experience in the theater was a bit sad. The movie seemed pretty standard, normal, etc. Around the time Ironhide was killed parents took their children out of the theater, Q's death added to this, and when Bumblebee had a gun up to his head I couldn't even count how many parents and children walked out of the theater.

It seems like the parents assumed the movie was all fine for their kids, they really should monitor what their children are exposed to.

While times have changed, there was an incident like this in the past. Remember Gremlins, the trailers and everything else made the film seem light hearted, then parents were horrified when their children were exposed to it.

Not too long ago this happened with The Dark Knight. Parents assumed one thing, "Ooooooooh Batman, it's for kids." Then all the kids saw The Joker stabbing people with pencils, and laughing maniaclly, and let's forget the dead guy in the Batman suit. Then parents would say, "This isn't what I want my children to see, it's your fault for doing this Christopher Nolan." I think this, It's your job to be a parent, make sure your children aren't exposed to this. Use the Parents Guide on IMBD.

Those are my thoughts.

Let me just say, I remember seeing Gremlins when I was a kid, and that scared the crap out of me. Once they started to multiply in the swimming pool, that was it. I had to go!

I'd like to first point out that this is from the point of view of a 16 year old boy, just thought that might be a bit relevant given the topic.

(SPOILERS) I go into a bit more detail on specific scenes so, be warned if you haven't seen it yet(SPOILERS)


The fact that they had Que begging as he died did make it worse than it could've been. I think it would've been less sad/scary for kids if it just panned away and you just HEARD the gunfire. They've done similiar things in kids movies all the time. For example there was a scene in Mulan where 2 soldiers were captured, one was let free to deliver a message and then they subtly implied that the Huns killed the other soldier.

Or they just could've just not have had him die AS he begged. Soundwave could've silenced him, or he could've just stayed quiet. But in general, it wasn't that bad since he was a robot. Flying gears and oil is far less mentally scarring than guts and blood.

The execution scene when Que died didn't bug me nearly as much as Prime just straight up murdering. I mean, Decepticons are evil, death is what they're good at. But Prime's line "kill them all" and then he, the supposed HERO, killed a whining Sentinal in cold bloo--err... energon. But, yet again, they could've fixed the scene with any of the suggestions I mentioned above. I was happy they at least gave him a somewhat clean death unlike everyone else in these movies. They all die in some way that their heads go flying off into the horizon in thousands of pieces. Sentinal was just "bang, bang, dead".

And then there's the Megatron death! Megatron offered to make a treaty! He had NOTHING left to fight for once Sentinal was dead. All of his high-ranking soldiers were dead. His forces were reduced to a few protoforms and in the TF Movies universe, an army of protoforms in like bringing knives to a gun fight. That one really pissed me off especially since it was Prime. But in general, the Transformers deaths weren't that bad since they were in fact not human, as I previously stated.

Then there were the human deaths... uhm... some of them were a bit much. Like that scene when Laserbeak tricks a little girl then kills her parents? That was just scary, but luckily that wasn't graphic and no others were too graphic either. All of human deaths just made me go "oh look, he died." instead of "Oh crap, he died!!".

So in general, it's a bit much for anyone that is younger than like 13 or 14. But it isn't limited to them. I heard some fully grown woman scream and grown men show their shocked reactions, so it all depends on the veiwer, young or not.

Autobahn Prime wrote:The execution scene when Que died didn't bug me nearly as much as Prime just straight up murdering. I mean, Decepticons are evil, death is what they're good at. But Prime's line "kill them all" and then he, the supposed HERO, killed a whining Sentinal in cold bloo--err... energon. But, yet again, they could've fixed the scene with any of the suggestions I mentioned above. I was happy they at least gave him a somewhat clean death unlike everyone else in these movies. They all die in some way that their heads go flying off into the horizon in thousands of pieces. Sentinal was just "bang, bang, dead".

And then there's the Megatron death! Megatron offered to make a treaty! He had NOTHING left to fight for once Sentinal was dead. All of his high-ranking soldiers were dead. His forces were reduced to a few protoforms and in the TF Movies universe, an army of protoforms in like bringing knives to a gun fight. That one really pissed me off especially since it was Prime. But in general, the Transformers deaths weren't that bad since they were in fact not human, as I previously stated.

I think Prime's Kill em all line was beyond justified. Sentinel Shoots Ironhide in the back! And then Starsream goes and destroys the shuttle. "thinking they were in there". Decepticons killed plenty in the city to "show the humans a lesson".

Yeah, Megs offers a "sorta truce" at the end, but do you trust someone who has stabbed you in the back and was all for the bringing Cybertron to Earth, letting slave labor do his work? Megs started the war.....Prime finished it for him. (Bay could have chosen other endings but this is what he did.)

Am I one of only a handful of people who get it? Seriously? Can no one take off their rose colored glasses and see the truth here?

Upon coming into the city of Chicago, Epps and Sam look around and see devastation as far as the eye can see. They drive past families that are bloodied, shaken, crying, lost.

They see toppled structures, heavily damaged buildings, skeletons of those who were vaporized, without mercy.

Starscream, and the world, thought the Autobots were dead when the Xanthium blew up. The Decepticons, as Prime put it, would never leave Earth alone.

Sentinel MURDERED Ironhide onscreen, the twins offscreen. (They were in a cut of the film and then removed. Pieces of them can be seen in one shot. So, to me, they were in the film, outside of their vehicle mode.)

Prime considers this HIS planet, HIS home, and us? HIS people. Prime had compassion in the first film. He was angry and frustrated in the second, but he never left us. He fulfilled his destiny. This one? We're one race now. NEST showed the soldiers and the Autobots as one. Even Mearing didn't condescend to Optimus. When she thought they died, a wave of sadness and hopelessness came over her, and it was visible on screen.

The Wreckers share his sentiment. Leadfoot said "We ain't goin' anywhere!"

Sam saved Prime's life in the first one. Died to save him in the second one. Was the only one to believe in him in the third one.

Sam and humanity truly are special to Optimus and the Autobots, we've given them a home. Optimus has never, ever forgotten that, or taken it lightly.

So when he said "We will kill them all!" he was angry, and justifiably so.

Sentinel cut off his arm and severely beat him, while stabbing him a second time, and all of this after he masterminded a plan to use US as slave labor and rip our planet apart.

Megatron's villainy is well known. The plan with Sentinel, the sun harvester, The Fallen, the execution of countless Chicagoans...you get the idea. Oh and that little thing about stabbing Prime through the back and blasting his spark out of his chest...

Megatron wounds Sentinel and then proceeds to beat him, to show him that he is no one's underling and says "This is MY planet!" (and yes, he is meaning Earth)

As soon as Cybertron is destroyed and Megatron is desperate and all of his hope is lost, he says "No! We need a truce! All I want is to be back in charge. Besides, who would YOU be without ME, Prime?"

To which Prime says "Time to find out."

It wasn't a truce! It was an offer of dictatorship! Megatron was claiming our planet as his own, as a piece of property. The Autobots claim it and our people as home, as one race, not one over the other. NEST? A family. Mearing's basically their Mama Bear and when it came down to it, she was there to make sure NEST was alright.

It was not a truce, not even in the slightest. It was a perfect example of G1 Megatron's motto: Peace through tyranny.

Sentinel was executed partially out of emotional persuasion, I mean, he did murder Prime's second hand man, but he was also a danger. Like Mearing said, he was the Einstein of their race, and his ideas and technological advances put Q's practical ideas to shame. He was dangerous and would've killed Optimus if given the chance. He already proved he was capable of killing humans and had no regard for our lives.

You don't allow a monster like that to live. You can't contain that kind of evil, it will find a way to get out, sooner or later.

Sentinel's execution was just and necessary. If people can't see that, then I think they need glasses. This isn't an opinion, this is all fact. This played out on the screen, right in front of our eyes.

How many violations and monstrosities must be committed before we say "Okay. Off 'em."?

Like Shadowman said: "You kill him Seal Team 6 style"

I wasn't saying any of it wasn't justified I was just saying parts of it could've been handled differently. The part where Prime said "kill them all" just didn't sit right with me because it was... well, it was Prime.

It's kind of like hearing Superman or Batman say "kill them all". It's probably justifiable but it's just weird because they've never done that in the past. Same thing with the execution. It's not that it happened that bugged me, it's who did it. Just seemed out of his character which has been set in stone since the 80's. "He'll kill you but only if you get in his way." Then all of a sudden it was "He'll go out of his way to kill you."

And the other point is that it's not whether or not what he did is justified, but is it something a child should be seeing. My main point was it might be a bit much for a child to see their hero give a kill order and murder his mentor, regardless of how right it was.

the issue was that this is a movie, where we expect heroes to be exemplary. We dont expect our heroes to be executioneers.

Im not saying prime is wrong to execute sentinal and prime, just that it doesnt fit with our movie ideals of what heroes are.

for those of us brought up in hollywood tropes, we want megs and prime to meet in an epic clash where the heroes vanquishes the villian in a fair or a mismatched (for the villiam) fight, not a beheading of a weakened and broken foe

shamone wrote:the issue was that this is a movie, where we expect heroes to be exemplary. We dont expect our heroes to be executioneers.

Im not saying prime is wrong to execute sentinal and prime, just that it doesnt fit with our movie ideals of what heroes are.

for those of us brought up in hollywood tropes, we want megs and prime to meet in an epic clash where the heroes vanquishes the villian in a fair or a mismatched (for the villiam) fight, not a beheading of a weakened and broken foe

May be doesn't fit your mind but it works in mine. War is hell and I expect there be consequences of violence. In the magic of saturday morning cartoons no one dies and ever gets hurt seriously. In these films death happens often and I expect the heroes to put down rabid dogs. At some point enough is enough, and the justice system has no way of handling these threats.

Real life soldiers kill enemies on the battlefield and walk around with a sentiment simliar what prime said upon coming to a battlefield...lets kil em all. that's their job, they re soldiers. (like Lennox said in the first film, you're a soldier now.) You do what has to be done so those who aren't strong enough to defend themselves never have to see these horrors. To defend against all enemies both foreign and domestic. I wouldn't call one who does that anything else besides hero.

This heroes never kill anyone is for the birds. Every single major comic book character has offed a villain at some point in their careers. People who commit violence but aren't willing to deal with the consequences are cowards. You draw your sword you best be ready to draw blood. You never point a weapon at something you don't wish to destroy.

Ultimately Prime barely escape this battle with his life. He wasn't in much better shape than either of his foes. He just had a moment to gather himself while Sentinel was getting thrashed by megatron, and I'd say more heart to push thru his injuries than either of them.

Was it the way I'd ended the film...absolutely not. Nothing in these films will ever be spot on exactly what we dreamed, but I don't think hollywood has enough money make the film in most fans heads hehe.

wasn't the topic title supposedly the japanese producers reaction to the first movie? anyone got proof of that?

Autobot032 wrote:Am I one of only a handful of people who get it? Seriously? Can no one take off their rose colored glasses and see the truth here?

Your not the only one. Though i cut out most of your post, I've repeated nearly everything you said several times in more than a couple threads since the movie's release. Quite frankly i don't understand how people can't understand Optimus's behavior. As far as the "truce" megatron offered; there is no defense. There is not one single shred of evidence in the last 3 movies that suggests that his "truce' was sincere, or trustworthy. It is indefensible.

But the biggest thing that kills me in this whole debate, is that we, the fans, asked for all this. We asked for a darker more serious movie. We got it and look what happens.
To be fair though no movie is going to be perfect. Had the ending happened like the book with megs and Optimus kissing and making up, i would probably be the one bitching right now.

so it's like beast machines all over again? the thing about being too dark but if it was light fan would be mad that it ain't 'mature'

Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's like beast machines all over again? the thing about being too dark but if it was light fan would be mad that it ain't 'mature'

And thats the fandom for ya. The way i look at it is its kind of like upgrading your car for racing...
you indentify a weak spot in the drivtrain and fix it. Only problem is you didn't nessasarly fix the problem as whole, but mearly moved it around. For example..
If the differential on my Mustang is the weak spot, so I replace it with a lager, stronger unit. While the rear end might be bullet proof, the next componet thats doomed for failure is the axels. once those are fixed, now the transmission is the weak point etc.
In this case, the movie was more serious and dark, but for some it was to serious and to dark for kids.
we got to see our characters in a new light, but for some the light wasn't bright enough.