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KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:17 pm

Takara made an incredible set of cassettes based on the G1 toon? **** THOSE CORPERATE ASSHOLES! THEY DON'T DESERVE MY MONEY!

Yeah ... I don't understand that mentality. I get the whole price argument, but not the Hasbro/Takara hate argument.

I've said all this before, but this thread is a rehash of old arguments so why not? On the greater KO debate, I prefer originals. But I do have a few "replica KOs". When it comes to KOs I was generally interested in those multicoloured Seekers in that small time when it seemed like KOs had something of genuine substance to contribute. That time has come and gone, it seems.

When it comes to G1 KOs, support for them is really short sighted. Yeah it's nice for those who collect KOs. But collectors who want G1 originals and who want to sell G1 originals - they're screwed. Personally, I'd never buy a G1 off ebay; I'd have to wait until a con comes around. It's all well and good to like what KOs bring to the table, but you should at least see how they damage the hobby for others. Saying that it's all the same because they're "high quality" (and that's debatable) is ignoring the problem.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Rated X » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:29 pm

Motto: ""Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.""
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I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby njb902 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:45 pm

Rated X wrote:I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.


The designers/companies of those products enable people to do those things. So how is it the same?
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Burn » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:00 pm

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Rated X wrote:Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1.


Care to provide some examples? Because that's not the impression I'm getting from what I read here.

My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.


Good for you. But if you're going to label "anti-KO'ers" hypocrites then take a look in the mirror.

Your support of KO's and 3rd party companies is not showing loyalty to the characters. You're just paying someone else instead of Hasbro/TT. You're not paying the original creators either.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Yotsuyasan » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:09 pm

Motto: "No matter where you go, there you are."
Rated X wrote:I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.


No one is saying the current people working at Hasbro designed the G1 toys. Find one person who said that. But the designs were, back in the day, either purchased by Hasbro or designed by people working for Hasbro. (There is the occasional exception, hence why some of the G1 toys haven't been reissued.) The designs are Hasbro's property. The people who make knock-offs are steeling that property, and you are purchasing stolen goods, because your sense of entitlement tells you it is fine for you to do so.

By that logic, if I feel entitled to your property, and someone steels it, it is fine if I cheaply buy it off that thief, right? Because I am only following your example.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Rated X » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:31 am

Motto: ""Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.""
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You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby njb902 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:37 am

Yet you have no qualms about buying KO's of semi recent 3rd party originals. How is that helping out the "little guy"?
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Burn » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:15 am

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
Rated X wrote:But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny.


Evidence please.

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself.


Prove it.

If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ?


If it's Transformers related and interests me, sure!

Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ?


No seriously, I'd love to see you back this one up with factual evidence.

If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ?


No. They can do whatever they want. Why ask such a silly question?

Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ?


You just don't get it do you? Read what I'm typing here, this is my personal opinion, others may share it, others may not.

I WANT MY COLLECTION TO BE COMPRISED OF LEGITIMATE HASBRO AND OR TAKARA TOMY MANUFACTURED TRANSFORMERS.

Are you now saying my collecting preferences are silly? Who are YOU to say that? I don't criticize YOU for how you choose to collect, so what gives YOU the right to criticize ME?


Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known.


We know. You've made that point perfectly clear. Oddly enough, no one's disputing it.

And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.


What exactly are KO companies adding to the universe? They're not doing anything but taking existing figures and creating their own molds then creating their own figures which tend to have lower quality and passing them off as legitimate TF's, often at the same price as a legitimate figure.

So please, once again, like I have asked you to provide plenty of evidence for all your other points, explain how a KO company adds anything to the TF Universe.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby EagleTron » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:20 am

Motto: "I laugh out loud for no reason at all after I have won a Great Battle. The very last Bot Standing!"
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[quote="I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.[/quote]
Horrible analogies, These ko are copyright violating. They are making the exact replicates down to the most important thing, the name.

A KO GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WHAT A TRUE COLLECTOR STANDS FOR. Buying a ko is selfish and doing so much harm to transformers nation cause they are trying to make the copies better than the original.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby EagleTron » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:16 am

Motto: "I laugh out loud for no reason at all after I have won a Great Battle. The very last Bot Standing!"
Weapon: Gamma-Ray Laser Cannons
Rated X wrote:I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.


Horrible anqlogies, these ko are copyright violation. They are making the exact replicas down to the most important thing, the name.

A KO GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WHAT A TRUE COLLECTOR STANDS FOR. Buying a ko is selfish and is doing so much harm to Transformers universe cause they aee trying to make the imatations better the the original, and thats a big no go!
Optimus: The Decepticons are a species of life just like us Autobots. They deserve a choice.
Bumblebee: You are rite Optimus, your compassion and courage is what makes you a great leader, bearer of the matrix.
Grimlock: I will Crush the Decepticons, I will Destroy, Dinobots transform, I'm ready for anything, Attaaaaack, No survivorsssssss.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Genocide G2.0 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:50 am

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Im still buying these guess that makes me a bad person , i think people need to get a grip with all this ko **** . Its not gonna stop anytime soon get used to it.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby njb902 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:08 am

Autobot Genocide wrote:Im still buying these guess that makes me a bad person , i think people need to get a grip with all this ko **** . Its not gonna stop anytime soon get used to it.


Neither will Medicare fraud, but hey as long as it's going to happen we all might as well pile on. I mean there is fraud and then there is fraud, a little fraud has never hurt anyone .... Right... Right?
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:21 am

Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Yotsuyasan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:52 am

Motto: "No matter where you go, there you are."
Others have refuted most of the other points in your last post well enough for me, I think. But I just wanted to take this one on:

Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property.


So intellectual property laws are subjective now? And I can ignore them if my personal opinions happen to be at odds with them? How enlightening. I am sure that would stand up in a court of law.

----------------------------------

This is why I think people who whole heartedly support knock-offs and bootlegs are douches who basically troll fandom. (And also why I really wish that there were separate forums for third party products and knock-off products, so I could avoid such trolling.) Their arguments are based solely on entitlement, and a disregard for law.

I'm not going to say I never felt too entitled towards a toy. I'm sure all anyone needs to do is look at the threads about the SDCC Metroplex, in the time just after it was available on Hasbro's website for 4.2 seconds, to see me throw a major bitch fest. But you know what? It took a day or so, but I got over myself and decided to settle for the retail version. KO fans will never get over themselves. Hence they are little better then trolls.

And before someone like Rated X calls me a hypocrite by pointing out the evidence on my own website (assuming he is even aware of it) I'll admit I bought some knock offs once... But (a) they were at least not knock-offs that could be confused for the real thing, (b) I was under no illusion that it was right for me to be doing so, didn't go screaming it was right to the world, and felt not quite kosher about making the purchase, and (c) feel quite confident I'm not going to ever be making such a purchase again.

So does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe. Or maybe it makes me the recovered alcoholic who now goes around to schools warning kids against the perils of drunk driving. Don't know which, I just wanted to put it on the record myself before anyone tried using it against me as a surprise.

I tried it once, knew it was wrong, and am not about to do it again.

The KO supporters do it as often as they want, don't care about (or in some cases even acknowledge) the illegality of the product, and happily proclaim as much to the universe. They will never change their minds, because they feel they should be entitled to whatever they want and damn the consequences.

And so, I shall end this post by acknowledging that this is a pointless, unwinnable internet argument (where one side is right, and the other side refuses to concede the slightest possibility that they might just be wrong even when presented with evidence and can in no way refute it) and thus including what every such argument eventually needs: stupid, pointless, captioned pictures.

To the knock-off supporters, I say:
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Yotsuyasan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:56 am

Motto: "No matter where you go, there you are."
Gauntlet101010 wrote:(...a lot of good stuff while I was likely in the middle of typing up the rant that was my last post.)


For which I applaud you, sir. Good show.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby daimchoc » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:01 am

Should I continue posting such news/articles? It seems to be putting our group at odds with each other...
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Yotsuyasan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:16 am

Motto: "No matter where you go, there you are."
daimchoc wrote:Should I continue posting such news/articles? It seems to be putting our group at odds with each other...


I was thinking to myself how sad it is that knock-offs get to be front page news, where as original third party products get shunned and ignored. Yes, they are front page news under the banner of, "Buyer Beware," and with a pretext of, "This thing exists, be aware of it when buying so you can be careful that you get the legitimate version." But in reality, to those who don't care about legitimacy it is just advertising that the knock off exists, so they can save a buck and go buy that one now -- to hell with the Has/Tak version!

It is a double edged sword. I agree people who want to avoid the knock offs need to be aware that they exist. But Seibertron.com reporting them as front page news almost seems to give them a legitimacy that this website specifically withholds from other, less questionable third party items. ("If you come up with an accessory to complement an official toy, or an original toy that homages a Transformers character, you don't exist to us! But if you blatantly knock off a Transformers toy, well then, this way to our front page!")

It really is a no win situation. Legitimate collectors need to be aware of knock-off products to avoid. But you can't draw attention to such products without (unintentionally) promoting them. Sadly, the only winners are the knock-off producers.

(I suppose it doesn't help that you posted a link to where the knock-off can be bought. There's a difference between saying, "Careful! This exists!" and saying, "And here's where you can buy it!")
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby daimchoc » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:51 am

My putting the link just shows that it is real. Next time I should probably just say that MP-05 is getting KO'd and you'd all just believe it, right. ;)
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby njb902 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:58 am

daimchoc wrote:My putting the link just shows that it is real. Next time I should probably just say that MP-05 is getting KO'd and you'd all just believe it, right. ;)


It's just information on a toy, what people decide to do with it is up to them.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Rated X » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:03 pm

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Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.



The MP line may be a recent line, but the characters it uses ARE 30 years old. I get you’re point. The corporate machine is needed to keep the toys coming. But if Hasbro ever falls, that doesn’t necessarily mean the Transformers brand will fall. Someone might bring it back, officially or unofficially. As long as there’s money to be made someone’s going to cash in. As long as there are hardcore G1 fans, there will be 3rd parties. And as long as the prices of some figures remain extremely high, there will be KO’s. Some original G1 designers are still on Hasbro’s payroll. Others are not. Some are probably dead. Some are probably going through hard times. If you look at some of the original Sunbow voice actors, they’re not receiving any royalties for being a major part of G1. Granted they’re not toy designers or artists, but they are a good example of G1 founding fathers that aren’t receiving royalties for life every time their respective character gets a new toy. I’m fairly confident the same thing goes for many former G1 toy designers and concept artists. All that’s left is the corporate machine and a piece of paper that’s says “we paid you back in the 80’s for your work no matter how much it’s worth today, so deal with it”. That’s the point I’m trying to make as why “IP infringement” is such a joke. The corporation that is crying foul hung many of their innovators out to dry a long time ago. Hasbro IP infringement is pure karma 30 years in the making. I’m sure those who saw their personal innovations make billions and only got a $1000 check back in 1986 to show for it laugh at Hasbro’s IP infringement claims. I wouldn’t blame them.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:24 pm

Rated X wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.



The MP line may be a recent line, but the characters it uses ARE 30 years old. I get you’re point. The corporate machine is needed to keep the toys coming. But if Hasbro ever falls, that doesn’t necessarily mean the Transformers brand will fall. Someone might bring it back, officially or unofficially. As long as there’s money to be made someone’s going to cash in. As long as there are hardcore G1 fans, there will be 3rd parties. And as long as the prices of some figures remain extremely high, there will be KO’s. Some original G1 designers are still on Hasbro’s payroll. Others are not. Some are probably dead. Some are probably going through hard times. If you look at some of the original Sunbow voice actors, they’re not receiving any royalties for being a major part of G1. Granted they’re not toy designers or artists, but they are a good example of G1 founding fathers that aren’t receiving royalties for life every time their respective character gets a new toy. I’m fairly confident the same thing goes for many former G1 toy designers and concept artists. All that’s left is the corporate machine and a piece of paper that’s says “we paid you back in the 80’s for your work no matter how much it’s worth today, so deal with it”. That’s the point I’m trying to make as why “IP infringement” is such a joke. The corporation that is crying foul hung many of their innovators out to dry a long time ago. Hasbro IP infringement is pure karma 30 years in the making. I’m sure those who saw their personal innovations make billions and only got a $1000 check back in 1986 to show for it laugh at Hasbro’s IP infringement claims. I wouldn’t blame them.


Hey, if you think MPs are overpriced and prefer the cheapest option that's fine. But you're NOT pro-creator here. By not buying a recent toy officially you're not supporting the guys who made it, directly or indirectly. It's very easy to say "I'm pro creator" when it involves words, but I notice you weren't too concerned with a creator's jobs when you first head about this KO. Your first thought was to your own pocketbook. Again, that's a legit point of view, but it's NOT pro-creator. You're a fan of the G1 universe and characters. But you're NOT pro-creator because you're NOT supporting creators by buying official products.

You're throwing a lot of hyperbole around - that Hasbro/Takara doesn't support it's creators ... how the hell would you know? Where's this story of a disenfranchised creator coming form? Because it sounds like something you just made up based on your own view of big business. But you know what? KO producers are also big business! You hate Hasbro for ripping off an imaginary creator in a made up story, but KO manufacturers are worse because they don't even hire creators at any time - they just copy their designs. Yet you wholeheartedly support them while hating on a company that actually employs them. You hate on one big business but favour another all while screwing over creators you claim loyalty to.

You like the TF characters and universe. You don't care who makes the toys based on them. You'll buy what's cheapest. You're about as pro creator for buying a KO as you are for downloading an MP3 for free instead of using iTunes. You might be a big fan of the song, but don't claim you support the artist. Being pro-creator involves more than being anti-corperate.
Last edited by Gauntlet101010 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Dead Metal » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:25 pm

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
You know the only way these would make it into my home would be if I had the originals and thought that they where super awesome to play about with.
So that way I would have my originals on display and the crappy cheap KOs to play with. But these are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to expensive either way, I may as well just buy doubles of the originals.

Also to the guys claiming that the original G1 toy designers aren't supported and such, they where payed for those designs, they knew full well that they wouldn't get to keep the designs and that the companies would get the credit for them. Kinda like a construction worker doesn't get to keep the house he helped build.

On top of that, a good deal of those designers are still around in the industry today and are actually aking to celebrities in the toy designing world, some of them are still employed by Takara. MP Starscream? Designed by the same guy who designed the original toy.

And I love how my last comment in this discussion was proven correct once more. >:oP
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Genocide G2.0 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:34 pm

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Why not just make a hasbro ko thread for people to complain and tell the same argument every time hasbro gets knocked off then tally up the same points made every time this happens to see how repetitive this is. ?
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Rated X » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:36 pm

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Yotsuyasan wrote:
daimchoc wrote:Should I continue posting such news/articles? It seems to be putting our group at odds with each other...


I was thinking to myself how sad it is that knock-offs get to be front page news, where as original third party products get shunned and ignored. Yes, they are front page news under the banner of, "Buyer Beware," and with a pretext of, "This thing exists, be aware of it when buying so you can be careful that you get the legitimate version." But in reality, to those who don't care about legitimacy it is just advertising that the knock off exists, so they can save a buck and go buy that one now -- to hell with the Has/Tak version!

It is a double edged sword. I agree people who want to avoid the knock offs need to be aware that they exist. But Seibertron.com reporting them as front page news almost seems to give them a legitimacy that this website specifically withholds from other, less questionable third party items. ("If you come up with an accessory to complement an official toy, or an original toy that homages a Transformers character, you don't exist to us! But if you blatantly knock off a Transformers toy, well then, this way to our front page!")

It really is a no win situation. Legitimate collectors need to be aware of knock-off products to avoid. But you can't draw attention to such products without (unintentionally) promoting them. Sadly, the only winners are the knock-off producers.

(I suppose it doesn't help that you posted a link to where the knock-off can be bought. There's a difference between saying, "Careful! This exists!" and saying, "And here's where you can buy it!")



You bring up a very good point. The whole "Buyer Beware" concept can be interpreted as advertising to those who are on a budget and want to save a buck. And negative publicity sells like hotcakes. Some people honestly dont care about a stamp that reads "Takara/Tomy" on the inner right leg of the figure. They just want something that looks really cool at a great price. Theres no ethics rulebook to collecting. You collect what makes you happy. And if something that looks cool at a great price makes you happy, then you are just as much a legitiment collector as those who bash KO's. Youre just collecting something different from them. And it irks some of them that youre getting the same sense of satisfaction for half the price they paid. High quality KO's exist. And they dont exist because of Hasbro's kid oriented customer base. They exist because the hardcore collector community is extremly divided on collecting ethics. I may be one of the few visible supporters of KO's on this site. But just a few buyers wouldnt justify their existance. Alot of people are buying high quality KO's. If they werent, Chinese companies wouldnt waste theyre time and money producing them. And this website unintentionaly glorifies KO's by front paging them. That only increases the amount of buyers. Im just one drop in a huge bucket. I wonder how many lurkers who dont post here are buying the KO's as well ? There must be plenty in my opinion.
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Re: KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:43 pm

There's probably quite a few who are pro KO, but I doubt there's as many who are anti-Hasbro/Takara. Not caring who makes a toy is a little different than being overjoyed when HasTak get screwed.

It might be beneficial to just make one monster thread for KO threads. But it might make searches in Google more difficult. In theory you could find that there's a KO available by just searching for the product in Google under the current system.
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