Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Shadowman wrote: it's not a matter of opinion.

Wow... OK, what ever, if that´s YOUR opinion that´s fine. I still think that your opinion is not more valid than mine or anyone else´s just because Hasbro says it is. It doesn´t matter if Hasbro says you´re right about a particular point, your opinion is just as respectful and valid as if Hasbro said otherwise.

Sabrblade wrote:Eloquence is bliss, my friend.

it seems so

Shadowman wrote:The problem with fanon is that is means nothing to anyone except the person who made the fanon. To most people, official canon is more valid. That's why it's official.

Its official because its been sanctioned by Hasbro......no other reason.

as for whats its worth to each person.......that depends on their taste,likes, dislikes.

Sabrblade wrote:It is okay to have a fanon, but it is not okay to claim that it completely overrides official canon for everyone.

this

Archanubis wrote:'Course, it doesn't help that Hasbro considers just about every Transformers continuity, from G1 to "Aligned" as canon in some for or another. :-/

thats because you misunderstand the true definition of the word CANON.

its not that Hasbro considers all its continuities as canon, by the definition of the word, everything that has ever officially been sanctioned is INDEED canon.

Shadowman wrote:Except no. Fanon is fan-made, hence why it has "fan" in the name there. Official canon is made by official sources, and is thus, whether or not you consider it as such, the valid one.

Short version: Official sources have higher authority than anything the fans say. There's no two ways about this, and it's not a matter of opinion.

Except,In regards to such a long lived series, the concept of validity and authority are open personal judgment.

Janus Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote: it's not a matter of opinion.

Wow... OK, what ever, if that´s YOUR opinion that´s fine. I still think that your opinion is not more valid than mine or anyone else´s just because Hasbro says it is. It doesn´t matter if Hasbro says you´re right about a particular point, your opinion is just as respectful and valid as if Hasbro said otherwise.

Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Except,In regards to such a long lived series, the concept of validity and authority are open personal judgment.

Nope! Canon is decided by the creators.

Let me put it this way. Say you wrote a book series. Would you really want people coming in and saying what did and did not happen in your series, then ignoring everything you'd say to the contrary? That their opinion of your work was more "valid" than what you actually wrote?

Shadowman wrote:

Janus Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote: it's not a matter of opinion.

Wow... OK, what ever, if that´s YOUR opinion that´s fine. I still think that your opinion is not more valid than mine or anyone else´s just because Hasbro says it is. It doesn´t matter if Hasbro says you´re right about a particular point, your opinion is just as respectful and valid as if Hasbro said otherwise.

Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant.

Officially irrelevant. You can't decide what's relevant to whom, that's why we can afford fannon. People should be able to make their own cr*p up. Just not pass it off as official.

Eventhough discussions about that can be hilarious.

Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant

What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.

Shadowman wrote:Let me put it this way. Say you wrote a book series. Would you really want people coming in and saying what did and did not happen in your series, then ignoring everything you'd say to the contrary? That their opinion of your work was more "valid" than what you actually wrote?

[/quote]

I don´t think fanon should be regarded as more valid, but it is just as valid. Besides, like I said before, Transformers lore is a direct result of the interaction between groups of people, it´s not as strict as the work of a single author. It just isn´t.

Answer me this: If Transformers canon is so strict that no one should even try to imagine their own versions of the story, then why does it actually happen? there´s little room for that in Lord of the Rings or, let´s say, Watchmen, the structure of the fiction simply doesn´t allow it so it doesn´t happen. Are you saying Transformers has the same structure as those other fictions?

Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant.

thats no rule, thats your personal opinion of the issue.

and in determining canon, only whats contained within the narrative is canon, no matter what the creator says.

for example, a creator could say in an interview that a character has a twin brother.....but until we see/read of that twin brother in the story its not canon.

Nope! Canon is decided by the creators.

except,we arent talking about who determines canon, but what its worth to some people.

Let me put it this way. Say you wrote a book series. Would you really want people coming in and saying what did and did not happen in your series, then ignoring everything you'd say to the contrary? That their opinion of your work was more "valid" than what you actually wrote?

What I would want isint the issue,

people have a fundamental right to decide validity and authority for themselfs.They can choose to accept or deny what I've written.But they can not dictate my further writings.

Janus Prime wrote:Answer me this: If Transformers canon is so strict that no one should even try to imagine their own versions of the story, then why does it actually happen? there´s little room for that in Lord of the Rings or, let´s say, Watchmen, the structure of the fiction simply doesn´t allow it so it doesn´t happen. Are you saying Transformers has the same structure as those other fictions?

I really dont see a difference, its just a matter of ones imagination

Janus Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant

What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.

Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.

Shadowman wrote:Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.

Just to throw something in, sometimes fannon is made cannon.

Hotshot's love of JaAm has now been made cannon with the Universe release. That started as a fanmade joke.

Fan stuff can influence what happens in official cannon, but not all the time.

Just wanted to point that out.

However, most fan stuff is just that. Fan stuff.

Shadowman wrote:

Janus Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant

What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.

Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.

It is your opinion.

whats "important" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe

what the creator says is important to YOU, but may not be to others.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Janus Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant

What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.

Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.

It is your opinion.

whats "important" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe

what the creator says is important to YOU, but may not be to others.

For once, it's not about what's important to me. It's about what's important to the series itself. Very little, if anything, of what the fans come up with has any sort of impact on the franchise itself. Even robofreak's jaam example is just an in-joke.

Shadowman wrote:For once, it's not about what's important to me. It's about what's important to the series itself. Very little, if anything, of what the fans come up with has any sort of impact on the franchise itself. Even robofreak's jaam example is just an in-joke.

well I agree, not much the fans can come up with , IMPACTS the STORY, but again, whats "IMPORTANT" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe.

The only TRUE think thats important to the series itself is that the fans buy the merchandise.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:For once, it's not about what's important to me. It's about what's important to the series itself. Very little, if anything, of what the fans come up with has any sort of impact on the franchise itself. Even robofreak's jaam example is just an in-joke.

well I agree, not much the fans can come up with , IMPACTS the STORY, but again, whats "IMPORTANT" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe.

Actually yes I can. As you've been repeatedly pointing out, it's all a matter of personal taste and opinion. And my opinion is that my beliefs are more important to me than yours.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:For once, it's not about what's important to me. It's about what's important to the series itself. Very little, if anything, of what the fans come up with has any sort of impact on the franchise itself. Even robofreak's jaam example is just an in-joke.

well I agree, not much the fans can come up with , IMPACTS the STORY, but again, whats "IMPORTANT" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe.

Actually yes I can. As you've been repeatedly pointing out, it's all a matter of personal taste and opinion. And my opinion is that my beliefs are more important to me than yours.

Actually No you cant.

You have been posting that your beliefs/ideas are more important as a matter of SOLID FACT, not they are more important to YOU.

Sorry, lost track of quotes.

Actually No you cant.

You have been posting that your beliefs/ideas are more important as a matter of SOLID FACT, not they are more important to YOU.

I agree, he´s contradicting himself now, but we´re making progress, look:


[/quote]Actually yes I can. As you've been repeatedly pointing out, it's all a matter of personal taste and opinion. And my opinion is that my beliefs are more important to me than yours.[/quote]

Yes, you have the right to think that, it makes you an intolerant jerk, but hey! you have every right to belive what ever you want to (I´m so proud you said "more important TO ME" ). But now you´ve finally acknowledged that what you´ve been saying all this time is an opinion ( I wouldn´t be surprised if you deny it in your next comment, I´m so happy this is a written media).

Now, if the simple fact that what Hasbro says is always more important than anything else is NOT a universal truth, then I hope you´ll agree that the same subjectivity applies to the canon itself, making it just as real or unreal as fanon.

Oi oi oi, it always comes down to a debate on opinions. Lets just say that Aligned isn't the universally accepted best of all transformers ever, and that we all respect eachother's individual opinions. Ok? Ok. Now play nice.

A Sto vs. Shadowman discussion. Very interesting.

Though, by all means, keep going guys. I'm really getting in to this.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote::lol:

No seriously, don't stop. This is my entertainment for the evening.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:For once, it's not about what's important to me. It's about what's important to the series itself. Very little, if anything, of what the fans come up with has any sort of impact on the franchise itself. Even robofreak's jaam example is just an in-joke.

well I agree, not much the fans can come up with , IMPACTS the STORY, but again, whats "IMPORTANT" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe.

Actually yes I can. As you've been repeatedly pointing out, it's all a matter of personal taste and opinion. And my opinion is that my beliefs are more important to me than yours.

Actually No you cant.

You have been posting that your beliefs/ideas are more important as a matter of SOLID FACT, not they are more important to YOU.

That's not exactly what I'm saying here, though I certainly could have worded it better.

No, it's not my opinion that the word of the creator is more important than the word of the fan, and I never said it was my opinion. I was responding to sto saying that I can't tell people their opinions don't matter, or matter less than mine. (And to me, your opinions matter less than mine!)

In the future, I should probably clarify when one point is not related to another.

I could never understand the concept of fanon. It's like watching a movie and pretending you're watching a different movie. What's the point? They wrote that movie so you could watch it as-is, not so you could make up a new story for it. It's like writing a fan-fiction, and then cramming it into the main story. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Shadowman wrote:I was responding to sto saying that I can't tell people their opinions don't matter, or matter less than mine. (And to me, your opinions matter less than mine!)

what I was trying to say was that "importance" is an issue of personal taste/judgment.

what you feel is important may not be the same as what someone else feels is important.

I could never understand the concept of fanon. It's like watching a movie and pretending you're watching a different movie. What's the point? They wrote that movie so you could watch it as-is, not so you could make up a new story for it. It's like writing a fan-fiction, and then cramming it into the main story. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

to some, whats present to us in the fiction fails to live up to what they feel is the true potential of the story.

some of those people loose interest, other come to accept that the stories arent always good, and others engage in re-writing the story.

I guess its the same mentality that is connected to fasntasy foot ball team games...but I cant say for sure since I know very little about sports.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:I was responding to sto saying that I can't tell people their opinions don't matter, or matter less than mine. (And to me, your opinions matter less than mine!)

what I was trying to say was that "importance" is an issue of personal taste/judgment.

what you feel is important may not be the same as what someone else feels is important.

Yeah, pretty much.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

I could never understand the concept of fanon. It's like watching a movie and pretending you're watching a different movie. What's the point? They wrote that movie so you could watch it as-is, not so you could make up a new story for it. It's like writing a fan-fiction, and then cramming it into the main story. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

to some, whats present to us in the fiction fails to live up to what they feel is the true potential of the story.

some of those people loose interest, other come to accept that the stories arent always good, and others engage in re-writing the story.

That makes sense and yet I still can't understand the idea of it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I guess its the same mentality that is connected to fasntasy foot ball team games...but I cant say for sure since I know very little about sports.

All I know about fantasy football is that it's Dungeons and Dragons for the guy who beat up the kids that played Dungeons and Dragons.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:I was responding to sto saying that I can't tell people their opinions don't matter, or matter less than mine. (And to me, your opinions matter less than mine!)

what I was trying to say was that "importance" is an issue of personal taste/judgment.

what you feel is important may not be the same as what someone else feels is important.

Yeah, pretty much.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

I could never understand the concept of fanon. It's like watching a movie and pretending you're watching a different movie. What's the point? They wrote that movie so you could watch it as-is, not so you could make up a new story for it. It's like writing a fan-fiction, and then cramming it into the main story. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

to some, whats present to us in the fiction fails to live up to what they feel is the true potential of the story.

some of those people loose interest, other come to accept that the stories arent always good, and others engage in re-writing the story.

That makes sense and yet I still can't understand the idea of it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I guess its the same mentality that is connected to fasntasy foot ball team games...but I cant say for sure since I know very little about sports.

All I know about fantasy football is that it's Dungeons and Dragons for the guy who beat up the kids that played Dungeons and Dragons.

Wow, this took a life of its own. A great debate about what is and what isn't. Keep in mind that Hasbro has tried to reconcile nearly everything. The Aligned universe is supposed to be the ultimate hog pog of backgrounds, characters and so on.

I look at Decepticons being military hardware as a sort of 'bonded will' because of Quint influence.

I love this conversation. What a nice debate.