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feeiq90 wrote:well,back to the topic itself..i dislike the old mp designer simply because his choice for the final colour..I mean just look at MP03..GREEN?GREEN??!!and those horrible hip kibble..and now, back to 2014,they decided to screw it up again with wheeljack? don't get me wrong, i like wheeljack's mold (already preordered him) but the black thigh and forearms really need to be grey/silver IMO.

Again, that was not the original MP designer, on both.
Wheeljack is still done by the guy from MP10 onward. And for the upteenth time, the original MP designer designed MP Starscream to be G1 Movie accurate, he was replaced with the guy who designed the toy that we now know as the original G1 Starscream, mostly known for his work on Macross, after he finalized the prototype.
It was that second guy who resculpted Starscream and decided on the green, so stop giving the wrong guy **** for that.

Yup. Blame Shoji Kawamori for the color and the hip kibble. He too was responsible for that design change.

Paik4Life said almost everything I wanted but I'll just underline a few aspects for the sake of the debate.

I love how everyone in this thread puts the blame on the designers alone. As if they weren't being paid to do whatever Has/Tak wants and before something goes to the plant for production, a board approves each and everything, from the initial rafts to the color of the box and the shape and size of the fonts used in the instruction manual.

Starscream was green not only because he wanted it to be. People had to approve that and that is the main thing in my view. Also, as ugly as it is, MP-03 is a rare thing going today and when one shows up on eBay is so damn expensive it's not even funny. It has its own value because it was the first Starscream and it blew people's mind much the same way as MP-01 did.

Also, like Paik4Life said, the figures from MP-01 to MP-09 were absolutely friggin' hard to design. They were huge figures in the G1 world and there was just a lot at stake. I think he did absolutely great overall and other than things like the hip kibble in MP-03 (which people already said it is not his fault) and the alt mode in MP-01, the main gripes I have with him is scale wise (mainly MP-08 - too small - and MP-09 - too big) and that we can never assure it is his fault as I'm sure there are production engineers who chime in here saying what is best and what is more cost effective. We can't say for sure he "designed figures isolated from one another" and "doesn't care about scale". This is pure speculation.

Then, after MP-10, everything is based on easy "been there, done that" designs with lots of cars that have been done over and over in the past and there were many mistakes to learn from doing Autobot cars. Soundwave is the simplest MP design (yet very good) and I don't even consider that to be a deisgn challenge at all compared to MP-08 for instance. See, the Autobot cars are a deisgn marvels, but too simple and easy with the kind of budget the MP line has. That is pure logic.

Anyway, I sold almost my entire collection to focus on the MP line with an odd figure here and there (THS-01 and 02, a few Alternators to go with MP-04 and Human Alliance Bumblebee from Bay's movie, which is a great figure in itself).

I love the entire line and the only figure I find it hard to justify buying (still hasn't) is MP-11, such a bad quality figure with ugly non-finished gray plastic and poorly finished overall. I don't care how much better is this mold, it just isn't up to par with MP-03.

[quote="Daniel Gallagher"]Then, after MP-10, everything is based on easy "been there, done that" designs with lots of cars that have been done over and over in the past and there were many mistakes to learn from doing Autobot cars. Soundwave is the simplest MP design (yet very good) and I don't even consider that to be a deisgn challenge at all compared to MP-08 for instance. See, the Autobot cars are a deisgn marvels, but too simple and easy with the kind of budget the MP line has. That is pure logic.[quote]


really they are so simple as to be pure logic? well then **** man why aren't you designing these things or least have a 3rd party product you designed? well your simple logic is off. don't talk smack like you know the deal, it makes you look like a know it all...

Daniel Gallagher wrote:Paik4Life said almost everything I wanted but I'll just underline a few aspects for the sake of the debate.

I love how everyone in this thread puts the blame on the designers alone. As if they weren't being paid to do whatever Has/Tak wants and before something goes to the plant for production, a board approves each and everything, from the initial rafts to the color of the box and the shape and size of the fonts used in the instruction manual.

Starscream was green not only because he wanted it to be. People had to approve that and that is the main thing in my view. Also, as ugly as it is, MP-03 is a rare thing going today and when one shows up on eBay is so damn expensive it's not even funny. It has its own value because it was the first Starscream and it blew people's mind much the same way as MP-01 did.

Also, like Paik4Life said, the figures from MP-01 to MP-09 were absolutely friggin' hard to design. They were huge figures in the G1 world and there was just a lot at stake. I think he did absolutely great overall and other than things like the hip kibble in MP-03 (which people already said it is not his fault) and the alt mode in MP-01, the main gripes I have with him is scale wise (mainly MP-08 - too small - and MP-09 - too big) and that we can never assure it is his fault as I'm sure there are production engineers who chime in here saying what is best and what is more cost effective. We can't say for sure he "designed figures isolated from one another" and "doesn't care about scale". This is pure speculation.

Then, after MP-10, everything is based on easy "been there, done that" designs with lots of cars that have been done over and over in the past and there were many mistakes to learn from doing Autobot cars. Soundwave is the simplest MP design (yet very good) and I don't even consider that to be a deisgn challenge at all compared to MP-08 for instance. See, the Autobot cars are a deisgn marvels, but too simple and easy with the kind of budget the MP line has. That is pure logic.

Anyway, I sold almost my entire collection to focus on the MP line with an odd figure here and there (THS-01 and 02, a few Alternators to go with MP-04 and Human Alliance Bumblebee from Bay's movie, which is a great figure in itself).

I love the entire line and the only figure I find it hard to justify buying (still hasn't) is MP-11, such a bad quality figure with ugly non-finished gray plastic and poorly finished overall. I don't care how much better is this mold, it just isn't up to par with MP-03.

MP-11 a bad quality mold that you can't justify yourself to buy or can't buy? That "ugly" figure is like ALL SOLD OUT! If it does appear, it gets sold out almost instantly.

Are you sure you are correct with the MP-11 opinion of yours?

VioMeTriX, that is obviously my opinion and as much as I'm entitled to it, you might as well have yours.

However, I have an argument based upon logic whereas you just attacked me for having an opinion. Yet you haven't presented an argument as to why you'd think the Autobot cars are more or even equally complex in design as the Masterpiece figures before MP-10.

I don't design anything but given the complex transformations of previous MPs, the Autobot cars pale in comparison, even if they are very good looking and accurate in terms of alt mode and robot mode (and people still bitch about their robot modes).

As to the MP-11, I don't buy it because I already have what I think is a great seeker mold in Mp-03, 06 and 07. Also, the finish is just horrendous and the MP-11 seems like a cheap KO when standing along MP-03. For that alone I passed on MP-11 Starscream and that remains the only figure I skipped and believe me, I don't like to have a hole in my MP collection because Takara didn't want to give the attention necessary to MP-11.

That is my opinion. Do not crucify me for it.

The elegance in Hasui's work may give you that impression, but his Masterpieces are anything but simple.

Here are some bits from an interview with him to shed some light on the proccess and the challenges (design/budget/consistency) behind the MP toys:

Hasui: MP Cassettes like Condor (Laserbeak), Jaguar (Ravage) and Frenzy were set to be developed as well to emphasizes Soundwave's playability.
Cassetterons gave me more trouble than Soundwave. The restriction was strict because 3 cassettes were to be stored in Soundwave's chest. Their size was so small, yet the plastic had to be of certain thickness, the axes had to be functional and they had to be transformable. On top of that, I made Condor without any excess parts unlike his G1 toy while recreating the camera on his head as well as his posture in the cartoon. Jaguar was more three dimensional compared to the original, and it really was testing the size limit. Although Frenzy and Ramble still required excess parts because the gun on their back were also to be hand-held.
I usually come up with two or three transformation ideas (for a product) and one of them becomes the actual product. As for Condor, I thought of 10 variations and none of them was finalised. I even doubted if it could ever be done, but those obstacles had to be cleared if I was to create Masterpiece figures. There always is a conflict between the ideal and the reality.

Hasui: The trouble I had with Lambor and Alert was they had to fit inside Convoy(Optimus Prime)'s trailer in vehicle mode while ensuring they were of certain heights in robot mode. Lately, the trend is a thinner and taller proportion - the older toys had larger chest/bonnet(hood) area, but if I followed that method the bonnet would have reached the robot waist. By making the robot mode taller, I made the chest area appear smaller by comparison. Transformation, scale, cartoon design and toy design must be all taken into consideration, and the overall proportion needs to be nicely modern. For that matter, I face mountain of difficult problems every time.

Hasui: MP is the most prestigious series and it is often seen as the series for the main characters, but we released those sub-characters last year. They did not appear in the cartoon very often and may not make the top 10 popular character list, but their vehicle mode is Lamborghini Countach and I thought it might appeal to the generations that Super Cars were the craze in their childhood. For MPs, the most important precondition is the faithful re-creation of cartoon robot and alternate modes, and we obtained the official license from Lamborghini and went ahead with the development.
Personally, rather than concentrating on one character, I'd like to have variety of characters lined up so that the world view of Transformers could be more enjoyable. If I concentrated on the ideals on Lambor, he would have been a 10,000 yen class product. There may be fans who would purchase him for that price, but considering the (relatively minor) position of the character, more people may not purchase him. Taking that into consideration, rather than concentrating on each character and releasing them at high price range, it was decided to have a fuller lineup including sub-characters and the 5,800 yen price was set. I pursued Masterpiece level figures within the restriction and Lambor and Alert are the results. Due to the cost restriction, initially I wasn't even sure if the shoulder cannons could be included. (*laughs) Thanks to the support from the fans Lambor was sold out. The nicely proportioned robot mode and the appeal of Lamborghini contributed a lot, of course, but I think his transformation is well done and the playability is also appreciated.

Hasui:The newer MP figures do have many transformation steps, however the process is designed so that the next step is plainly indicated. They might be easier in a way than (Transformers) products for children. MP Soundwave is especially easy to see the transforming process as his arms and legs are visible in alternate mode. Although from the developer's point of view, coming up with a transformation for such a figure is the most difficult - it is quite hard to work out the structure in which a robot with angles and lines fits inside (a device) with flat surfaces.

More @ http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transform ... piece.html

Thanks a lot for the info, Cyberpath, but that does not mean they are more or equally complex as Grimlock or Rodimus.

See, I'd like to see such an interview with their designer and I am sure he had a lot more problems other than just budget (because these figures are huge they are already more expensive to design and produce).

I don't wanna sound repetitive, but I fail to see where these figures are more complex than the previous figures, even if they are arguably BETTER figures overall.

Now granted I'm only going on pictures, having never actually seen the original MP Starscream in person, but myself, I quite like it. In fact, I love it. Not despite its divergences from the source material, but because of them.

The hip-pods aren't all that accurate, sure, but they do look cool. I'm actually sad Shoji didn't go full hog and actually incorporate swords into them. Imagine Starscream duel wielding Iai katanas. Just imagine it. Badass.

As for the colours...I really like them. We've seen the Seeker body in all sorts of colours, but rarely in "realistic" colours. Granted, the colour scheme on MP-03 is based on a very rare paintjob not often (but sometimes) used on real F-15 Eagles, but it is still a very nice change. Also, the jet mode looks superb.

I think MP-03 works best if you think of him as a reinterpretation of the character rather than an outright slavish recreation. I'd probably get MP-11 as my "main" G1 MP Starscream, but I'd happily have MP-03 as a seperate display piece. And let's be honest, if anyone has the right to do a personal take on a transforming jet robot, it's Shoji Kawamori. The guy is a legend for a reason.

Now we need a full Macross/Tranformers crossover with Shoji Kawamori and Hirofumi Ichikawa working together on mech/toy design. Make it happen, HasTak/Bandai.