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Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

There is more to Transformers than movies, cartoons, comics and toys. Discuss anything else Transformers here.

Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Tronus_Rex » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:05 pm

This same question is now being asked in wrestling/MMA circles about Stone Cold Steve Austin. For those who don't understand/get G1 Megatron, that's perfectly alright, and actually not unusual, because, I'm seeing it in more than one other "fandom", for it's really a generation gap issue.

Image


http://www.unchained-wwe.com/category/legends-alumni/stonecold/

At this point, everyone is going in circles, I've seen the same arguments repeated, in different ways, let's stop now. =;

Those, like myself that get it, get why G1 Megatron is awesome, we will never be able to prove it to the younger crowd. [I do acknowledge the 80's kids who also do not like Meg's]. That said; younger fans need to understand, if not for Megatron, you wouldn't see characters like, Mark Hamill's Joker, from Batman Animated.

Image


http://lucien0maverick.wordpress.com/tag/the-joker/

Also, (& I know some will scoff at this), I've heard some new Batman fan's starting to ask the same about that version of the Joker. The Joker in Fox's Batman Animated, just like Megatron, was groundbreaking on TV, and allowed for even more mature characters.

I watched wrestling in the 90's, [and still keep track of the genre & MMA], and those of us, from the 80's and 90's, are now hearing younger fans now ask, "What is the deal with Stone Cold Steve Austin?"

Image


http://stillrealtous.com/5-facts-wrestlers-probably-didnt-know/

The generation that that is alive now, & has it's own interests & icons, will discover this in just 10 to 15 years. Next generation will will regard what you experience and ask; "what's the big deal?" But for those who are alive now, you know why the things that are important now, are important. Myself & others from the 80's & 90's; we know why figures, such as Frank Welker's G1 Megatron, Mark Hamill's 90's Joker, & Stone Cold Steve Austin are important. It's alright for people who did not experience these cultural icons, to not understand. But still, please acknowledge those who did understand.

:BOWDOWN:
ALL HAIL MEGATRON!!! :CON:


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Joe NG Megatron by dcjosh - Deviantart

http://dcjosh.deviantart.com/art/Joe-Ng-Megatron-74586754

[Just to repeat, I'm aware of 80's fans that also don't like Megatron. Myself, I liked Stone Cold, but, it was actually "Dwayne" :lol: - The Rock, who truly drew me to watch the WWF. & this wouldn't have occured if it weren't for Hollywood Hulk Hogan getting my interest in Wrestling. I had stopped watching after Wrestlemania XIII. Hogan got me back. The Rock, in early '98, kept me interested. Others have had my attention since. (like: CM Punk).
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs22/f/2008/013/e/f/Joe_Ng_Megatron_by_dcjosh.jpg

Will be used at a later date ^^

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http://dcjosh.deviantart.com/art/Joe-Ng-Megatron-74586754
http://minohkim.deviantart.com/art/Zarak-Scorponok-335269537
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby MGrotusque » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:02 pm

One of the reasons for me as to why i find him the best Megatron is that I find G1 Megs to be one of the most eloquently spoken of all his incarnations (Prime Megs takes second in that department) and that is one of the qualities i most admire in a fantastic villain.

Plus He looks the most cohesive aesthetically. He just looks powerfull.

EDIT: I also absolutely love gun mode.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:15 pm

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Burn wrote:
Well for him to function in his alt-mode he kinda needs someone to give him a cuddle ...
TurboMMaster wrote:Exactly! What kind of evil overlord you are is you need someone else to even manifest you true power?
Sabrblade wrote:Most others here are saying that he needs someone else to pull his trigger to shoot, so I'm just going by their word.

actually, he could fire himself in alt mode.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Burn » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:19 pm

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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Burn wrote:
Well for him to function in his alt-mode he kinda needs someone to give him a cuddle ...
TurboMMaster wrote:Exactly! What kind of evil overlord you are is you need someone else to even manifest you true power?
Sabrblade wrote:Most others here are saying that he needs someone else to pull his trigger to shoot, so I'm just going by their word.

actually, he could fire himself in alt mode.

Yes thank you for coming into the conversation late on a topic we'd already moved on from after others had given examples. Image
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby fenrir72 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:05 am

Motto: "Power to the strong and the right!"
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We all could go on in perpetual eternal debates but T maximus had a quote somewhere in the site that is most apt to quiet all critics. G1 was the archetype of the entire franchise. They(the writers) had nothing too build on except from scratch (and a glorified advertisement to boot). BW Megatron and so forth had the luxury of having writers mold him into the mad genius everyone idolizes. In the end, imho, Megatron G1 IS and always will be THE "Emperor" of Destruction.

Btw, to quote Saberblade " Only by the power of off-screen plot convenience", the same can also be said of BW Megatron in Beastmachines. He conquered Cybertron by releasing a virus in order to overcome the populace. How he did it has never been shown, just like in the 1986 Movie. Furman touched it a bit with the comic mini-series at the last page (he was like materializing...)but, well....never heard of any plans to "in canon" explain how he did it. Stopped reading the comics after AHM........
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:58 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
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fenrir72 wrote:Btw, to quote Saberblade " Only by the power of off-screen plot convenience", the same can also be said of BW Megatron in Beastmachines. He conquered Cybertron by releasing a virus in order to overcome the populace. How he did it has never been shown, just like in the 1986 Movie. Furman touched it a bit with the comic mini-series at the last page (he was like materializing...)but, well....never heard of any plans to "in canon" explain how he did it. Stopped reading the comics after AHM........
But unlike the Cons conquering Cybertron in the movie, Megs conquering Cybertron in BM was still at least explained and partly shown.

You said it yourself. He got back to Cybertron early, created a virus and Vehicons, then unleashed one after the other upon the populace.

How did he get back early? He broke out of his restraints on the roof of the Maximal's Autobot shuttle, fell through Transwarp space, and ended up on Cybertron sooner than they did. All seen in episode 8.

How did he create the virus? Well, while not explicitly touched upon in the show (as it only gives us the "what" rather than the "how"), according to Cryotek's extended 3H bio, the virus was something that Cryotek himself was working on prior to Megatron's return to Cybertron, and, in exchange for "helping" Megatron to rid himself of his Transmetal 2 form (by assuming the form himself), Cryotek's research and operations fell in Megatron's hands, who carried them out himself while Cryotek ended up in stasis lock after his own Transmetal 2 metamorphosis.

Now, one could say that, since this comes from a non-show source, it doesn't necessarily have that much bearing on the show itself. While understandable, there is another factor to consider here. This bio is in continuity with the "Theft of the Golden Disc" episode and "Dawn of Future's Past" comic that most people DO consider to be in continuity with the two Beast Era cartoons, since both were made specifically to be the official prequels to shows. As such, what's viewed as in direct continuity with one can by extension be in direct continuity with the other (the bio even references "Theft", even though said bio was written years before "Theft"'s creation). ;)

Now, back to Megatron.

How did Megatron unleash the virus on the populace? In the form of a large pillar of green gas that erupted from the city and spread planetwide:
Image

Though, while we didn't see the exact mechanism and method to his launching the gas, I don't think we'd need to be so pedantic over such minor details, since we're at least still given this visual explanation and can see the final results of it.

How did he create his vast Vehicon drone armies? Well, again, while the show didn't go into minute details on this, there was at least one episode that showed how one factory could mass produce an uncountable amount of Tank Drones in just a short time. So, given the resources Cybertron had before it went dark, and given how illegal, underground activities unbeknownst to the higher-ups of Cybertronian society are pretty common in a lot TF fiction, it's not impossible to think that Megatron used one or some of these factories to manufacture and mass produce the first batch of his army while no one was looking. This could have even been going on while the gas was released, turning everyone's attention toward it instead. ;)

Therefore, unlike the conquering of Cybertron by the Decepticons in the 1986 movie, we're given plenty of info to piece together just how Megatron took over Cybertron prior to the Beast Machines cartoon. :-B
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby fenrir72 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:53 pm

Motto: "Power to the strong and the right!"
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The conquering of Cybertron in the 1986 Movie.....yeah, never really clear how that happened. Iirc, a freebie from a DVD collection with art by Nick Roche only touched it a bit. Indeed , that is a bind spot on the Cybertron historia. And a good thing that the BW continuity did get at least some clarification rendering of the story. Calling Flint Dille and company.....
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby tfparodies » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:53 pm

I know this is off the original topic, but the thread has turned a bit anyway.

I don't follow fanfic stuff at all... but I am guessing there is some good stuff relating to the topic of what happened between 1986 and 2005, yes? Something leading up to the start of the movie. I've often thought about creating a story myself, but figure "there must be something out there already." Anyone know of any that is considered good?
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby njb902 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:07 pm

It always seemed to me that the Decepticons pretty much controlled Cybertron in seasons 1 and 2 anyways.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Burn » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:52 pm

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njb902 wrote:It always seemed to me that the Decepticons pretty much controlled Cybertron in seasons 1 and 2 anyways.


To me the Autobots essentially abandoned Cybertron from the first episode.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:30 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
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Yet, whenever we saw episodes on Cybertron during seasons 1-2. Shockwave was the only named Decepticon character we ever saw residing there. Everyone else who had a name was an Autobot. Alpha Trion, Firestar, Elita One, Chromia, Moonracer, etc. All other important Decepticons were on Earth at the time.

And even if Shockwave was in control of all of Cybertron at the time, it's not like there was really much of anything there for him to control since the planet was pretty much near-dead anyway. Sure, it still had some power, but the opening narration of episode 1 had stated clearly that the planet's energy resources had been drained, and we saw Bee and Jackie stealing energy conductors that barely had any power in them, so any power left must have been table scraps only used for the most practical of necessities.

fenrir72 wrote:The conquering of Cybertron in the 1986 Movie.....yeah, never really clear how that happened. Iirc, a freebie from a DVD collection with art by Nick Roche only touched it a bit.
Always wanted to read that comic.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby njb902 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:36 pm

Sabrblade wrote:Yet, whenever we saw episodes on Cybertron during seasons 1-2. Shockwave was the only named Decepticon character we ever saw residing there. Everyone else who had a name was an Autobot. Alpha Trion, Firestar, Elita One, Chromia, Moonracer, etc. All other important Decepticons were on Earth at the time.

And even if Shockwave was in control of all of Cybertron at the time, it's not like there was really much of anything there for him to control since the planet was pretty much near-dead anyway. Sure, it still had some power, but the opening narration of episode 1 had stated clearly that the planet's energy resources had been drained, and we saw Bee and Jackie stealing energy conductors that barely had any power in them, so any power left must have been table scraps only used for the most practical of necessities.

fenrir72 wrote:The conquering of Cybertron in the 1986 Movie.....yeah, never really clear how that happened. Iirc, a freebie from a DVD collection with art by Nick Roche only touched it a bit.
Always wanted to read that comic.


Shockwave did have millions of years to change the planets situation.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:56 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
njb902 wrote:Shockwave did have millions of years to change the planets situation.
But, when he makes his first call to Megatron on Earth, it's to ask him to send energy to the planet since Shockwave was running on empty. Evidently, things didn't get better in those four million years. ;)
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby njb902 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:21 am

Sabrblade wrote:
njb902 wrote:Shockwave did have millions of years to change the planets situation.
But, when he makes his first call to Megatron on Earth, it's to ask him to send energy to the planet since Shockwave was running on empty. Evidently, things didn't get better in those four million years. ;)


Or just at that particular time.

Do you always have to do the know it all eyewink?
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:29 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
njb902 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
njb902 wrote:Shockwave did have millions of years to change the planets situation.
But, when he makes his first call to Megatron on Earth, it's to ask him to send energy to the planet since Shockwave was running on empty. Evidently, things didn't get better in those four million years. ;)


Or just at that particular time.

Do you always have to do the know it all eyewink?
It's not a "know-it-all" eyewink, it's a "friendliness" eyewink. :)

I don't know all; not even close. I am an ignoramus.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby fenrir72 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:08 am

Motto: "Power to the strong and the right!"
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tfparodies wrote:I know this is off the original topic, but the thread has turned a bit anyway.

I don't follow fanfic stuff at all... but I am guessing there is some good stuff relating to the topic of what happened between 1986 and 2005, yes? Something leading up to the start of the movie. I've often thought about creating a story myself, but figure "there must be something out there already." Anyone know of any that is considered good?


The topic Saber and I are discussing hasn't changed or strayed but as I mentioned, G1 Megatron does deserve to be idolized. Him and BW Megatron are the only two "Emperors of Destruction" in the G1 continuity to have actually conquered Cybertron. BW had the luxury of a fine tuned character backstory but give credit where credit is due too. Megatron (G1) also had the recognition of conquering and driving the Autobots off Cybertron.

As for the (in canon?) comic book, I recall it now, it was from the Madman release of 1986 TF the Movie DVD set. Based on tfwiki, Optimus hid the Matrix somewhere on earth while a massive evac was underway during Megatron's big push.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Madman_comi ... d_sigh.jpg

Supposedly Soundwave and the deployers were sent by Megs to capture the Matrix and Hotrod screwed up the plans.....and got a vision of things to come from the Matrix.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:41 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
I'm confused, are we speaking of the American or the Japanese continuities? Cuz outside of Animated and Prime, the whole "Supreme Commander"/"Emperor of Destruction" thing was Japanese-only.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Cyberpath » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:13 am

The Decepticons had been accumulating energy and shipping it via the Space Bridge throughout the entire first two seasons (and presumably continued to do so during the "unaccounted" years.) Even when their raids were foiled they still escaped with a lot.

I actually like the time gap/jump.

Neither side had control over Cybertron before the movie, but sometimes it seemed like the Decepticons had the upper hand. Details as such the computerised lock that they put on Wheeljack's workshop. Or how the female Autobots' base (and their existence) was a highly guarded secret. Shockwave's presence, etc.

We saw lots of generic Decepticon residents on Cybertron during the 1st season and the movie. And a reference to many other Autobot inhabitants was made in The Ultimate Doom, part 1. (Of course, some of them we didn't actually get to see till Rebirth. ;)
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby fenrir72 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:19 am

Motto: "Power to the strong and the right!"
Weapon: Plasma Cannon
Sabrblade wrote:I'm confused, are we speaking of the American or the Japanese continuities? Cuz outside of Animated and Prime, the whole "Supreme Commander"/"Emperor of Destruction" thing was Japanese-only.


I idolize him like a Decepticon sycophant that I am (only one who comes close would be Deathsaurus and Megazarak) hence I call him mein fuhrer...............ehem my "Emperor of Destruction". Sounds more bad@ss and the Japanese do excel in name calling. :lol:
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby d_sel1 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:15 pm

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One criticism of G1 Megatron could be answered by discussing censorship standards. Back in the 1980s, noone was killed in cartoon. Repeat noone could be killed in a cartoon on television. The censors would not allow Megatron and rest of the Decepticons to kill the Autobots on a weekday afternoon cartoon. Back then, there were stricter censorship standards. That is why Cobra could not hit the broad side of a barn (and GI Joe had laser blasters instead of real life guns). This is not like nowadays where somebody gets offed on a PBS Kids cartoon every day (hehe). One reason why G1 Megatron in the cartoon seems "wimpy," the FCC (I think) was the only force that could stop him.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:50 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
d_sel1 wrote:This is not like nowadays where somebody gets offed on a PBS Kids cartoon every day (hehe).
/:) Which one? You have my attention.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Tronus_Rex » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:25 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
d_sel1 wrote:This is not like nowadays where somebody gets offed on a PBS Kids cartoon every day (hehe).
/:) Which one? You have my attention.


I'm sure he was joking Saber', but, felt like investigating for myself, just to be sure.

Google searched; "pbs kids shows characters that died", leading me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty's_Kids, did ctrl+f to find: "died", with only 1 hit: "Henri Richard Maurice Dutoit LeFevbre";

A small, but comedic and energetic boy from France, Henri's parents died on the voyage to America when a plague struck the ship and killed half of the people on board three weeks into the trip. The ship's captain exploited Henri afterwards because he had to pay off his family's debt to the captain. James and Moses smuggled Henri off the ship and the boy found a home in Benjamin Franklin's workshop. While he speaks French fluently, Dr. Franklin has insisted that Henri learn to speak, read, and write in both English and French. Henri's small size has proved more than useful to Sarah and James, though he has a tendency to land himself in all sorts of trouble while not fully understanding the dangers of the war. His lookout on life is that of a "huge party for his benefit" and has been labeled a "magnet for trouble." In later episodes, he serves on the drum and bugle corps of the Continental Army. Curious and fearless, the only thing Henri values more than his freedom is finding a family of his own.


Then find: "killed". 4 hits - with more interesting results. 3 of which were outside my "died" search.

I think that this is it. Unless you count Mister Hooper, perhaps a, foil-hat, conspirator could argue he was done in by Henson? :lol:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs22/f/2008/013/e/f/Joe_Ng_Megatron_by_dcjosh.jpg

Will be used at a later date ^^

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http://dcjosh.deviantart.com/art/Joe-Ng-Megatron-74586754
http://minohkim.deviantart.com/art/Zarak-Scorponok-335269537
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby Windsweeper » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:42 pm

In both the comic and cartoon, though I begrudgingly mention the cartoon, because even as a kid, apart from the excellent pilot and movie, I thought it was badly written, Megatron wasn't afraid to fight his own battles.

Other villains tended to be cowards and were happy to send their troops in ahead of them but Megatron didn't.

He was missing half his face when he stood up to and defeated Predaking. He was dying and still gave backchat to Unicron.

He was also a champion gladiator.

And let's not forget, how many cartoon villains have a toy that's banned in the US and Europe?

By the way, the Marvel UK story, Decepticon Dambusters, depicted Megatron flying/floating in gun mode when he blew up the dam.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby d_sel1 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:03 pm

Motto: "Where is this global warming that scientists talk about this winter?"
Weapon: Neptune Sword
Tronus_Rex wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
d_sel1 wrote:This is not like nowadays where somebody gets offed on a PBS Kids cartoon every day (hehe).
/:) Which one? You have my attention.


I'm sure he was joking Saber', but, felt like investigating for myself, just to be sure.

Google searched; "pbs kids shows characters that died", leading me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty's_Kids, did ctrl+f to find: "died", with only 1 hit: "Henri Richard Maurice Dutoit LeFevbre";

A small, but comedic and energetic boy from France, Henri's parents died on the voyage to America when a plague struck the ship and killed half of the people on board three weeks into the trip. The ship's captain exploited Henri afterwards because he had to pay off his family's debt to the captain. James and Moses smuggled Henri off the ship and the boy found a home in Benjamin Franklin's workshop. While he speaks French fluently, Dr. Franklin has insisted that Henri learn to speak, read, and write in both English and French. Henri's small size has proved more than useful to Sarah and James, though he has a tendency to land himself in all sorts of trouble while not fully understanding the dangers of the war. His lookout on life is that of a "huge party for his benefit" and has been labeled a "magnet for trouble." In later episodes, he serves on the drum and bugle corps of the Continental Army. Curious and fearless, the only thing Henri values more than his freedom is finding a family of his own.


Then find: "killed". 4 hits - with more interesting results. 3 of which were outside my "died" search.

I think that this is it. Unless you count Mister Hooper, perhaps a, foil-hat, conspirator could argue he was done in by Henson? :lol:


It was meant as a joke, but apparently truth is stranger than fiction and any jokes I can make. I only mention PBS Kids, because I thought of it as "least likely to have character killed off via gratuitous violence.
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Re: Why G1 Megatron is so idolised?

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:35 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Burn wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Burn wrote:
Well for him to function in his alt-mode he kinda needs someone to give him a cuddle ...
TurboMMaster wrote:Exactly! What kind of evil overlord you are is you need someone else to even manifest you true power?
Sabrblade wrote:Most others here are saying that he needs someone else to pull his trigger to shoot, so I'm just going by their word.

actually, he could fire himself in alt mode.

Yes thank you for coming into the conversation late on a topic we'd already moved on from after others had given examples. Image

your very welcome, just doing my part :grin:
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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