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I guess what I mostly want is the Punch/Counterpunch dynamic expanded upon on both teams. Have agents of both allegiances who spy on the other guys. And the "confusion over who's on what side" is mostly the fact that there are bots and cons on both sides. Yes, once they make a big, grand, confrontation, they'll know who plays for what team, but everybody knows how rampant spies are and they don't trust their own so-called teammates. I feel like, in 30 years, we've only got the tip of the iceberg of the possible stories explored. And that's just an idea. To go back to the original topic, yes, I would be happy with an all-new crop of bots whose adventures I could follow in some new way. Sorta like Rescue Bots.

HELL yes at Animated. Give the characters new names and it would be exactly what I'm asking for: freshness. As it is, they changed what it means to be a Prime and a Magnus just to keep the trademarks, so the characters were already very different, which I liked.

Yes, Yes, a thousand times YES.

The reason G1-Movie-G2 torch passing didnt work was it wasn't handled the right way. It was like all of a sudden "BAM!" lots of dead old guys..."BAM!" lots of new guys...and a lot of stuff crammed down our throats as viewers (and consumers) made the whole thing feel "forced".

Beast Wars = Phail.

Animated was mostly a win (and my favorite to date) due to totally changing most of the dynamics and just keeping familiar names in order to placate the fanboi base. Animated made the Decepticons the aggressors (which is cannonically accurate, since they were supposedly the "military bots" and the autobots were supposed to be "service-oriented" machines).

To be a success, I feel a "new" series would need:

1. Expand on human/transformer interaction and relationships...both on the good side and bad. Animated did this well on the good guy side, but where were the Dr. Arkeville's in this universe? I mean, these giant robots immigrate across the galaxy, settling on our planet, and less than half a dozen humans ever have interaction with them? Pfft...take a cue from McDreamy and the Bayverse...there should be whole Skull and Bones type conspiracies built around these guys.

2. Smooth transition from "last-gen" to "next-gen". The movie and G2 failed at this, and Animated did okay...turning Ratchet into a "Kup-esque" character and constantly reminiscing about the Great War was a great bit...but it was totally washed by having ANOTHER Optimus Prime paradoxically present.
-maybe have the "original" Optimus Prime serve in some limited capacity...like as headmaster of the Autobot Academy or kinda like Jaga from Thundercats would be cool...
-maybe have some of the old, nameless "extras" bots...the guys in the background used as filler in G1 who were like the Red Shirt Ensigns from Star Trek...they could become some of the main-streamers this time around...leading to flashbacks, storytime memories, etc. Everyone loves a well-done throwback.

3. Re-invent, but dont OVER-reinvent. AkA "The reason Beast Wars failed". GET AWAY from "ZOMG Unicron might stiiiiiilll be around"; "Prime/Megatron could stiiiiill be resurrected"; etc.
-maybe the new plot device could be the Transformers realize that vehicle alt modes are not as "disguising" without some Bay-esque human interaction and could lead to some headmaster/powermaster type interaction

4. Plot devices = GOOD; Mcguffins = BAD (*cough* Animated Allspark Key *cough*).

5. AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: Do not make the series to sell toys, make the toys revolve around the series.
GASP! I know, I know...this reverses everything that Transformers has ever been based on since the importing of G1 from Japan...but it's also why Animated was so much more of a better show...it centered around a handful of bots and really fleshed them out with personalities and backstory.
G1 was basically a laundry list of bots in a cartoon designed to SELL TOYS...how many of you can remember anything note-worthy ever done by the likes of Powerglide or Cosmos? Even Reflector was little more than a Red Shirt Star Trek Ensign included only to increase the ranks of the Decepticons and sell his associated toy, and he had the most screen time of almost all the "junior varsity" bots. On the other hand, I bet most of you remember the flashbacks of how Elita 1 became Blackarachnia or Ratchet's first meeting with Lockdown.
People will buy G1 Powerglide or Cosmos simply to "fill in a slot on the G1 shelf"...but they actually WANT to get Animated toys because they are part of the storyline...part of the UNIVERSE...which is the entire reason behind why my personal collection concentration has shifted from G1 (which is admittedly only about 2/3 complete) to getting the entire Animated line FIRST.

DJrasmo wrote:Beast Wars = Phail.

What? This is news to me. How so?

DJrasmo wrote:2. Smooth transition from "last-gen" to "next-gen". The movie and G2 failed at this, and Animated did okay...turning Ratchet into a "Kup-esque" character and constantly reminiscing about the Great War was a great bit...but it was totally washed by having ANOTHER Optimus Prime paradoxically present.

Another Optimus Prime? I only ever recall the one Optimus Prime in Animated. Don't tell me you still think Animated is a continuation of G1, everyone else already figured out it isn't long before season 1 even ended.

DJrasmo wrote:3. Re-invent, but dont OVER-reinvent. AkA "The reason Beast Wars failed". GET AWAY from "ZOMG Unicron might stiiiiiilll be around"; "Prime/Megatron could stiiiiill be resurrected"; etc.

Once again, I don't know what you mean. People complained a lot about Beast Wars because of TRUKK NOT MUNKEY but they got over it when they realized Beast Wars actually told a really damn good story. (Code of Hero makes G1 look like a kids show...well, more of a kids show, you know what I mean) Complaining about BW is almost a cliché in the fandom at this point.

Beast Wars didn't fail, by the way, it's still fondly regarded as some of the finest storytelling in Transformers by many, many fans. And they didn't even need Simon Furman, but he wrote the series finale anyway.

DJrasmo wrote:4. Plot devices = GOOD; Mcguffins = BAD (*cough* Animated Allspark Key *cough*).

MacGuffin = plot device. Whereas a Deus Ex Machina is a plot device that ends the story, a MacGuffin is a plot device that pushes the story forward.

DJrasmo wrote:the importing of G1 from Japan

You mean the importing of G1 to Japan, right? Well...no, you couldn't, could you, because Japan didn't get G1 until after season 2 was underway over here. You could mean, headmasters, but that wasn't imported, in fact, no Japanese-made TF series was ever brought over to America until RID.

DJrasmo wrote:G1 was basically a laundry list of bots in a cartoon designed to SELL TOYS...how many of you can remember anything note-worthy ever done by the likes of Powerglide or Cosmos? Even Reflector was little more than a Red Shirt Star Trek Ensign included only to increase the ranks of the Decepticons and sell his associated toy, and he had the most screen time of almost all the "junior varsity" bots. On the other hand, I bet most of you remember the flashbacks of how Elita 1 became Blackarachnia or Ratchet's first meeting with Lockdown.
People will buy G1 Powerglide or Cosmos simply to "fill in a slot on the G1 shelf"...but they actually WANT to get Animated toys because they are part of the storyline...part of the UNIVERSE...which is the entire reason behind why my personal collection concentration has shifted from G1 (which is admittedly only about 2/3 complete) to getting the entire Animated line FIRST.

That was the idea. Have the characters look awesome on the show, and the kids will buy them. Kids didn't buy Optimus because he was on shelves, kids bought Optimus because of how awesome the cartoon made him look. That's the entire reason Transformers exists in fiction.

And don't forget how many characters were in Animated to simply be in Animated. You remember Rodimus Prime and his team fighting that small band of Decepticons? It lasts all of five minutes, it's never brought up again, and the characters all have toys.

Beast Wars being "fail" is simply an expression of my own opinion. As 3rd grade dictionary learnin' taught us, an "opinion" is not a "fact", and therefore wether or not BW "fails" cannot be proved or disproved as true/false.
Personally I feel like they broke away too much from what made the Transformers a franchise, yes, as you say "trukk not munkey".

"Another Optimus Prime? I only ever recall the one Optimus Prime in Animated. Don't tell me you still think Animated is a continuation of G1, everyone else already figured out it isn't long before season 1 even ended"

You mis-read me here. I meant "another" as in "yet another of a long line of reduxed character models...as opposed to introducing a new character to fill the leader position instead (which was one of the main points of this thread to begin with). Bad interwebs grammar...mah bads.

"MacGuffin = plot device. Whereas a Deus Ex Machina is a plot device that ends the story, a MacGuffin is a plot device that pushes the story forward."

Congrats on your dictionary nazism...but I was simply referring to a "macguffin" in the stereotypical sense of a recurring plot device that means InstaJib For The Win...such as the Allspark Key in Animated, Voltron forming together, or Prince Adam becoming He-Man.
Typically over-used, and almost always a sign that whatever plot that has been previously progressing is about to be inexplicable defeated by the use of a simple crutch device.
After going back and watching some of my (perhaps mis-remembered) favorite cartoons, I was surprised and more than a little disappointed that the standard formula was like 10-15 minutes of storyline and then simply re-using the same Macguffin footage to end every episode.

"You mean the importing of G1 to Japan, right?"

Um, not really...considering the whole ideology was originally created IN JAPAN as Microman and Diaclone. The idea of transforming robot toys was popular with kids in Japan, and the show was created afterwards to help provide a small boost to sales.
Upon import to America, however, the toys proved to not be so much of a hit with our slightly-less-fascinated-with-technology kids and the show was used (in typical American media-saturating fashion) to push the toys, including the addition of new characters, new series, and re-dubbing for more interesting dialogue.

And yes, I agree with that last part...importing people like Rodimus and Ironhide as cameos in Animated actually lessed the show a bit for me. I much preferred it the way it was...as a small core of central characters who progress and grow throughout the show. They could have just as easily introduced NEW characters to fill the same purpose...but chose instead to try and re-saturate us with old characters.

DJrasmo wrote:"MacGuffin = plot device. Whereas a Deus Ex Machina is a plot device that ends the story, a MacGuffin is a plot device that pushes the story forward."

Congrats on your dictionary nazism...but I was simply referring to a "macguffin" in the stereotypical sense of a recurring plot device that means InstaJib For The Win...such as the Allspark Key in Animated, Voltron forming together, or Prince Adam becoming He-Man.

First off, great job on fulfilling Godwin's Law.

Second, what you're describing, (And I'm assuming you mean InstaGib) an action that frequently signals the end of fighting, is a Deus Ex Machina. The key is called a MacGuffin because it would just as often kick off the plot as it would end it, for instance, when it created Soundwave.

DJrasmo wrote:"You mean the importing of G1 to Japan, right?"

Um, not really...considering the whole ideology was originally created IN JAPAN as Microman and Diaclone. The idea of transforming robot toys was popular with kids in Japan, and the show was created afterwards to help provide a small boost to sales.

The concept of transforming robots originated in Japan, yes, but the characters, story, hell, the entirety of the fiction (At least up until Headmasters) originated in the US. It's kind of like saying Super Mario Bros. was imported from the US to Japan because the US invented video games first.

DJrasmo wrote:the show was used (in typical American media-saturating fashion) to push the toys, including the addition of new characters, new series, and re-dubbing for more interesting dialogue.

We're still talking about G1, right? Because G1 was neither dubbed nor re-dubbed for the US.

DJrasmo wrote:I much preferred it the way it was...as a small core of central characters who progress and grow throughout the show. They could have just as easily introduced NEW characters to fill the same purpose...

Which is exactly what Beast Wars did...

DJrasmo wrote:but chose instead to try and re-saturate us with old characters.

Because as much as this thread is asking for the contrary, the vast majority of viewers and watchers and readers don't want to get rid of Optimus and Megatron.

DJrasmo wrote:Beast Wars being "fail" is simply an expression of my own opinion. As 3rd grade dictionary learnin' taught us, an "opinion" is not a "fact", and therefore wether or not BW "fails" cannot be proved or disproved as true/false.

DJrasmo wrote:Congrats on your dictionary nazism

"You mean the importing of G1 to Japan, right?"

Um, not really...considering the whole ideology was originally created IN JAPAN as Microman and Diaclone. The idea of transforming robot toys was popular with kids in Japan, and the show was created afterwards to help provide a small boost to sales.
Upon import to America, however, the toys proved to not be so much of a hit with our slightly-less-fascinated-with-technology kids and the show was used (in typical American media-saturating fashion) to push the toys, including the addition of new characters, new series, and re-dubbing for more interesting dialogue.

That is all utter BS.
Hasbro bought the rights to sell the toys in America and their other markets.
Then they went and asked Marvel Comics to create all the fiction (comics, cartoon, character bios and names) to better market them to kids, something almost every toy line did back then, oh and it was also done as a bit of an answer to the GoBots.

All Takara did was design the original toys, then after seeing how successful Transformers was in the US they killed the original lines, and imported the Transformers.
And no G1 is not anime, save for the stuff produced in Japan like Zone, Headmasters, etc.

That's basic Transformers knowledge.

And yes, I agree with that last part...importing people like Rodimus and Ironhide as cameos in Animated actually lessed the show a bit for me. I much preferred it the way it was...as a small core of central characters who progress and grow throughout the show. They could have just as easily introduced NEW characters to fill the same purpose...but chose instead to try and re-saturate us with old characters.

Team Rodimus was introduced in Season 3 so that they could later take over the show for the fourth and final season, Rodimus was supposed to be the "Chosen One" in this and become the hero at the end. But those plans died when Hasbro terminated their partnership with CN to focus more on the Hub and TF Prime. A lot of footage was cut from Animated season 3 that was meant to lead into Season 4.
Being such a large Animated fan you should know this.

Also Optimus was a completely different character in this, sharing only the name and basic character design. There will always be an Optimus and a Megatron in some way, Hasbro wants to protect their Trademarks after all.
Also Animated was also made to sell toys, just here the show was developed at the same time as the toys. The toys only got delayed because Hasbro and toy retailers wanted more of that sweet sweet Movie toys cash.

It is also weird that you bring Animated up as an example of a show that has nothing in common with the old stuff and is so "fanboi" unfriendly.

Animated was the definition of fanwank, almost everything in there was there to appeal to fans, mostly due tot he guys behind it being fans themselves, Isenberg to a much lesser extent though.

Dead Metal wrote:Team Rodimus was introduced in Season 3 so that they could later take over the show for the fourth and final season, Rodimus was supposed to be the "Chosen One" in this and become the hero at the end.

I actually didn't know that, I knew there was going to be some of a cast change up in the next season, like Ironhide and jazz taking the places of Bulkhead and Prowl on Team Optimus.

Dead Metal wrote:But those plans died when Hasbro terminated their partnership with CN to focus more on the Hub and TF Prime. A lot of footage was cut from Animated season 3 that was meant to lead into Season 4.
Being such a large Animated fan you should know this.

The way I heard it, it was done so as not to deflect attention away from Revenge of the Fallen.

Dead Metal wrote:Also Animated was also made to sell toys, just here the show was developed at the same time as the toys. The toys only got delayed because Hasbro and toy retailers wanted more of that sweet sweet Movie toys cash.

The writers are on record saying that if they had known Laserbeak transformed into a guitar for Soundwave, they'd have included it in Soundwave's first appearance.

Dead Metal wrote:It is also weird that you bring Animated up as an example of a show that has nothing in common with the old stuff and is so "fanboi" unfriendly.

Animated did do a few things differently; a more realistically futuristic environment with a greater emphasis on robotics, more prominent human villains, most characters were given entirely new characterizations, etc.

But yeah, the show itself was all about the G1 references, as many as they could pack in per episode, stuff only the long-time fans would catch. Even getting as many voice actors to reprise their roles as they can. (Corey Burton voicing Shockwave and Spike, Susan Blu voicing Arcee, Judd Nelson voicing Rodimus, etc. etc.)

Shadowman wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:But those plans died when Hasbro terminated their partnership with CN to focus more on the Hub and TF Prime. A lot of footage was cut from Animated season 3 that was meant to lead into Season 4.
Being such a large Animated fan you should know this.

The way I heard it, it was done so as not to deflect attention away from Revenge of the Fallen.

They terminated their contract with Cartoon Network, with whom they had an exclusive working agreement with, CN also produced the Unicron trilogy, adding to that they stated they wanted to do their own thing or soemthing the like so I say it's safe to say that it was in favour of the Hub. Especially since the Hub deputed just a year after the CN partnership ended.

Dead Metal wrote:Also Animated was also made to sell toys, just here the show was developed at the same time as the toys. The toys only got delayed because Hasbro and toy retailers wanted more of that sweet sweet Movie toys cash.

The writers are on record saying that if they had known Laserbeak transformed into a guitar for Soundwave, they'd have included it in Soundwave's first appearance.
[/quote]
They also said that about Oil Slick, thing is though that the character models and the toys where designed at almost the same time, the designs would be sent to Hasbro and then changed should they not work as toys, that's how Prowls wheels ended up in his legs.
The TFA team probably didn't even think of using Laserbeak, and Hasbro just thought of saving the name, plus that mistake was taken care of later with electrostatic Soundwave and his Ratbat appearing in an episode before the toy got cancelled.

Dead Metal wrote:It is also weird that you bring Animated up as an example of a show that has nothing in common with the old stuff and is so "fanboi" unfriendly.

Animated did do a few things differently; a more realistically futuristic environment with a greater emphasis on robotics, more prominent human villains, most characters were given entirely new characterizations, etc.

But yeah, the show itself was all about the G1 references, as many as they could pack in per episode, stuff only the long-time fans would catch. Even getting as many voice actors to reprise their roles as they can. (Corey Burton voicing Shockwave and Spike, Susan Blu voicing Arcee, Judd Nelson voicing Rodimus, etc. etc.)[/quote]
Shockwave was put in due to Corey Burton telling the team how he was his favourite character and how he would love to reprise the role.
Don't forget Fanwank the episode, Wreck-Gar or the not-Maximals.

I'm going to take this from where the current comics are headed:

If so many Cybertronians are scattered all over the universe, why are we not aware of their stories? Something had to happen. There has to be some kind of material there.

Make a show based on them and I'd give it a shot.

I'd love something like DC Nation's shorts starring lesser-known characters.