The Energon Pub

About time Hasbro- my only criticism is that this doesn't go far enough!

The reality which people seem to be ignoring is that this is an official Hasbro convention (even if they are using FP as a service provider to facilitate it) and the reality is that for far too long Hasbro have been sending the wrong message about KOs and collectors who wanted the genuine article have suffered by lowlife thieves like those who ran KO Toys and provided scammers with ample amounts off scam fodder.

Granted, you have some companies like FP, who try and do something unique, but at the end of the day, you are still stealing Hasbro and Takara's IPs while something remains unlicensed.

Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

Maybe Hasbro do charge exorbitant licensing fees to use their products, but so what- they own the IP rights and so it's entirely fair enough. What is stopping these 3rd party guys from going the way of Armarauders and producing something completely original if they can't afford the licensing fees?

Then you have the issues of any potential royalties they might owe designers due to contracts. Hasbro might be worth billions, but artists moving from job to job and depending on royalties while they do aren't.

Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

Well, the man states a valid point about the legality of the situation.
Unfortunately, he also makes it clear what a rude person he is.
I don't own a basement, and yes I have a beautiful collection. And I am def not a sub dweller, however i do have a short temper sometimes and I know you should never say on the net what you wouldn't say to someones face. You might run into them one day and you might end up with a broken nose.
And I'm joining a boycott on hasbro, but I will be spending a ridiculous amount of money on 3rd party toys this year!! lol.. Who am I kidding, I already have.
Because unlike the jerks who come on here pretending to be lawyers and bad mouthing the real fans, I support 3rd parties, and its everyones right to make their own decisions, im not gonna bad mouth you because you think Hasbro is right or that 3rd party toys are horrible. I can't force you to be intelligent. lol.
But I do draw the line when arseholes come on here and start talking trash about the real fans, the loyal fans. The ones that love Transformers and only want Hasbro to step up and do their part for the fans.
If Hasbro had an issue they should have said something before they started getting shown up at their own convention. I'm sorry if their feelings were hurt. They shouldn't have let them attend in the first place.
But its all good, because they will keep making 3rd party toys, they will keep giving the fans what they really want, and as long as the quality and design is good, the fans will keep them in business.
And those that don't like it, (you see that), thats where you came from. You can go back now.
Goodbye and take care..

Bowspearer wrote:About time Hasbro- my only criticism is that this doesn't go far enough!

The reality which people seem to be ignoring is that this is an official Hasbro convention (even if they are using FP as a service provider to facilitate it) and the reality is that for far too long Hasbro have been sending the wrong message about KOs and collectors who wanted the genuine article have suffered by lowlife thieves like those who ran KO Toys and provided scammers with ample amounts off scam fodder.

Granted, you have some companies like FP, who try and do something unique, but at the end of the day, you are still stealing Hasbro and Takara's IPs while something remains unlicensed.

Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

Maybe Hasbro do charge exorbitant licensing fees to use their products, but so what- they own the IP rights and so it's entirely fair enough. What is stopping these 3rd party guys from going the way of Armarauders and producing something completely original if they can't afford the licensing fees?

Then you have the issues of any potential royalties they might owe designers due to contracts. Hasbro might be worth billions, but artists moving from job to job and depending on royalties while they do aren't.

Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

For what it's worth, here's how I see it.

Hasbro is well within their rights to ban third party products from the convention. They are the ones who authorize the use of their brand's name for the convention, and the club that puts it on, so they have the right to set the rules. Confiscation is undoubtedly beyond they legal authority, but kicking someone out and or banning them from future conventions would be possible. Whether it's a good PR move, that's another story, and is up to the individual to decide.

As for the third party companies themselves, they are a separate issue from whether they or their products should be allowed inside the convention. They seem to fall under a spectrum of five types of products, with many companies producing products that fall into more than one category.

1: Blatent knock-off. These are outright copies of existing molds, owned by Hasbro or Takara. These products are clearly illegal, and Hasbro is well within their rights to go after these companies, regardless of what else those companies may produce.

2: Original builds of pre-existing, protected designs. Examples of this are the transforming G1 Arcee design, the Hearts of Steel designs like Knight Morpher Commander and Cyclops, or the TF/G.I. Joe crossover designs. These designs are owned by Hasbro and/or their licensees. As such, no matter how much original design work goes into them by these companies, I cannot say that these are in any way legal unless they got permission. Given that they are not using the trademarked names on these, I can't imagine they got that permission.

3: Add-ons to existing designs. Examples are the Protector armor, trailers for various Optimus Prime designs, and weapons packs. These rely on actual Hasbro products to make them worthwhile, and might even be usable with non-TF toylines. None of these are outright illegal, and they do encourage the purchase of official products. I see no problem here. At worst there copy/update the look of an accessory to another toy, which was never sold separately to my knowledge.

4: Original designs that resemble official characters. These are the ones like Defender, the Hercules and Giant sets, and the Causality figures. This is where most of the dispute comes in, from what I've seen. The catch here is, these are original designs which have, regardless of how much they look like official characters, have significant differences from those characters official representations. Hasbro cannot protect the idea of a team of transforming green and purple construction vehicles that also combine into a giant robot. They can protect specific designs, names, and the like, but they cannot protect the idea. They cannot prevent anyone from creating a trio of transforming robotic insects in black and purple. Yes, they may resemble the Insecticons, but there are enough differences there that they should be legally defensible. Hasbro may not like it, but this is really no different from what they do to get around having to get permission from car companies when they create a new mold for a Transformer.

To be blunt, it seems to me that challenging this would likely be a lose-lose proposition for Hasbro. If they lose in court, it sets a legal precedent that could encourage others to come in and play the same game with other Hasbro properties. If they win, then they set themselves up to face similar lawsuits from car manufacturers.

5: Completely original products. Armarauders is about the only example I know of, and there's clearly nothing illegal in it, and no one seems to be challenging that.

All the heat and debate seems to center around 2, 3, and 4 of my list, and I can certainly agree with the idea that 2 is illegal. 3 kind of stradles the line depending on how it's done. It's number 4 where I can't understand why people think the companies are doing anything illegal. It's no more theft that someone coming along and creating a new TV series centered around the crew of a starship exploring a new world every week on behalf of a galactic superpower. It's no more unethical than changing details to get around having to pay licensing fees to make a Transformer that becomes a car.

I'd like to see a new show. One where they explorer the universe in a black ship, boldly going where no one has gone before. In super pursuit mode, as the ship talks to the crew. And it can fly itself. And when need be, separates into 5 or 6 smaller pieces which turn into these robots. That turn into 5 or 6 lions, or vehicles, lol. And then form into a giant robot. We'll call it a combiner, and when he fights, he'll have this sword. We'll call it, his blazing sword!! "Form Blazing sword!" Sounds good.. And he helps people along the way, building things out of nothing, and everyone will say, if you need them, if no one else can help, if you find them, maybe you can hire. "The A Bot Knight Lion Trek Force"...!

CommanderHazar wrote:For what it's worth, here's how I see it.

Hasbro is well within their rights to ban third party products from the convention. They are the ones who authorize the use of their brand's name for the convention, and the club that puts it on, so they have the right to set the rules. Confiscation is undoubtedly beyond they legal authority, but kicking someone out and or banning them from future conventions would be possible. Whether it's a good PR move, that's another story, and is up to the individual to decide.

As for the third party companies themselves, they are a separate issue from whether they or their products should be allowed inside the convention. They seem to fall under a spectrum of five types of products, with many companies producing products that fall into more than one category.

1: Blatent knock-off. These are outright copies of existing molds, owned by Hasbro or Takara. These products are clearly illegal, and Hasbro is well within their rights to go after these companies, regardless of what else those companies may produce.

2: Original builds of pre-existing, protected designs. Examples of this are the transforming G1 Arcee design, the Hearts of Steel designs like Knight Morpher Commander and Cyclops, or the TF/G.I. Joe crossover designs. These designs are owned by Hasbro and/or their licensees. As such, no matter how much original design work goes into them by these companies, I cannot say that these are in any way legal unless they got permission. Given that they are not using the trademarked names on these, I can't imagine they got that permission.

3: Add-ons to existing designs. Examples are the Protector armor, trailers for various Optimus Prime designs, and weapons packs. These rely on actual Hasbro products to make them worthwhile, and might even be usable with non-TF toylines. None of these are outright illegal, and they do encourage the purchase of official products. I see no problem here. At worst there copy/update the look of an accessory to another toy, which was never sold separately to my knowledge.

4: Original designs that resemble official characters. These are the ones like Defender, the Hercules and Giant sets, and the Causality figures. This is where most of the dispute comes in, from what I've seen. The catch here is, these are original designs which have, regardless of how much they look like official characters, have significant differences from those characters official representations. Hasbro cannot protect the idea of a team of transforming green and purple construction vehicles that also combine into a giant robot. They can protect specific designs, names, and the like, but they cannot protect the idea. They cannot prevent anyone from creating a trio of transforming robotic insects in black and purple. Yes, they may resemble the Insecticons, but there are enough differences there that they should be legally defensible. Hasbro may not like it, but this is really no different from what they do to get around having to get permission from car companies when they create a new mold for a Transformer.

To be blunt, it seems to me that challenging this would likely be a lose-lose proposition for Hasbro. If they lose in court, it sets a legal precedent that could encourage others to come in and play the same game with other Hasbro properties. If they win, then they set themselves up to face similar lawsuits from car manufacturers.

5: Completely original products. Armarauders is about the only example I know of, and there's clearly nothing illegal in it, and no one seems to be challenging that.

All the heat and debate seems to center around 2, 3, and 4 of my list, and I can certainly agree with the idea that 2 is illegal. 3 kind of stradles the line depending on how it's done. It's number 4 where I can't understand why people think the companies are doing anything illegal. It's no more theft that someone coming along and creating a new TV series centered around the crew of a starship exploring a new world every week on behalf of a galactic superpower. It's no more unethical than changing details to get around having to pay licensing fees to make a Transformer that becomes a car.

Bowspearer wrote:*starts out reasonable and fine, made goog points, even.*

Then we came to this:

Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Then the IQ drops to work in an offensive jab/personal attack with blanket mentality, while doing so. Throws whatever credibility and weight the post started out with, right out the window into the dumpster down below.

For your information, some of these so-called "basement dwellers" as you put it, are anything but. Good job on blanket judgments!

Bowspearer wrote:Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

And then there's this little gem, which not only continues the offensive trend, it also tells people who they really are in YOUR eyes. Just goes to show how little respect you can have for some of your fellow posters. I might not always agree with people, but dang, this was just RUDE of you.

Why would you say such disrespectful things? This war of Official V. 3rd Party doesn't affect you in any way, so why get crap started when you're intelligent enough to rise above some of the sillier comments? Also, just because someone posts something silly or in the heat of the moment, doesn't make them a lesser person, even though you obviously see it otherwise, according to what you've said in this post.

Bowspearer wrote:Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

You're comparing this to torture, rape and murder? Are you serious? If anyone's being the lalalalalala person, it's you. What's next? Working in a bit about Hitler?

You had a compelling argument with good points, but quickly threw them out in favor of "Let's be offensive and see where it takes us".

Good job. *shakes head* You can be better than this. Do it.

TransformersEmporium wrote:
Well, the man states a valid point about the legality of the situation.
Unfortunately, he also makes it clear what a rude person he is.
I don't own a basement, and yes I have a beautiful collection. And I am def not a sub dweller, however i do have a short temper sometimes and I know you should never say on the net what you wouldn't say to someones face. You might run into them one day and you might end up with a broken nose.
And I'm joining a boycott on hasbro, but I will be spending a ridiculous amount of money on 3rd party toys this year!! lol.. Who am I kidding, I already have.
Because unlike the jerks who come on here pretending to be lawyers and bad mouthing the real fans, I support 3rd parties, and its everyones right to make their own decisions, im not gonna bad mouth you because you think Hasbro is right or that 3rd party toys are horrible. I can't force you to be intelligent. lol.
But I do draw the line when arseholes come on here and start talking trash about the real fans, the loyal fans. The ones that love Transformers and only want Hasbro to step up and do their part for the fans.
If Hasbro had an issue they should have said something before they started getting shown up at their own convention. I'm sorry if their feelings were hurt. They shouldn't have let them attend in the first place.
But its all good, because they will keep making 3rd party toys, they will keep giving the fans what they really want, and as long as the quality and design is good, the fans will keep them in business.
And those that don't like it, (you see that), thats where you came from. You can go back now.
Goodbye and take care..

And here we go with the "I have no response, so I'm going to claim you're not a real fan".

Newsflash- I've been a fan since 1984 when I was 5, I've never stopped collecting, and I was the guy who accused Furman of selling out at the end of the G2 comic (the paste-up board for said letters page I actually have framed and hanging on a wall).

Secondly, my comment about "basement dwellers" is entirely valid- fans so caught up in their own world like a pack of 5 year olds that the ethics and the legalities of the situation go right out the window because



Granted, people steal because they decide it's justifiable, just like people assault others, rape them and murder them- anyone who ever commits a crime always has some way of justifying it. Everyone can justify it however they like, but it doesn't change the ethics of it.

The irony here of you claiming you can't force me to be intelligent here burns so much you could use it in warfare as a substitute for napalm.

The simple fact of the matter here is that those designs being used, even in the case of 3rd party products belong to Hasbro. When they are produced as unlicensed items, said designs are being used without being paid for. Thus Hasbro are being stolen from. Anyone who sells said products is knowingly fencing stolen property (the IP involved with said product). Anyone who buys them is knowingly buying stolen property (the aforementioned IP). It's literally that black and white.

But hey, why let little things like ethics get in the way of you buying your toys right?

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:*starts out reasonable and fine, made goog points, even.*

Then we came to this:

Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Then the IQ drops to work in an offensive jab/personal attack with blanket mentality, while doing so. Throws whatever credibility and weight the post started out with, right out the window into the dumpster down below.

For your information, some of these so-called "basement dwellers" as you put it, are anything but. Good job on blanket judgments!

Except that in terms of attitudes, they very much are. There's more to being a "basement dweller" than the literal, physical side of things- it's being so disconnected frrom reality with said fandom that all you care about is your fan fix to the point where you're oblivious to whatever real world implications go with it.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

And then there's this little gem, which not only continues the offensive trend, it also tells people who they really are in YOUR eyes. Just goes to show how little respect you can have for some of your fellow posters. I might not always agree with people, but dang, this was just RUDE of you.

Why would you say such disrespectful things? This war of Official V. 3rd Party doesn't affect you in any way, so why get crap started when you're intelligent enough to rise above some of the sillier comments? Also, just because someone posts something silly or in the heat of the moment, doesn't make them a lesser person, even though you obviously see it otherwise, according to what you've said in this post.

You ask why I would say such disrespectful things? The answer is that quite simply put, I'm utterly disgusted by the attitudes defending third party products and KOs, and thoroughly ashamed to be even remotely associated with them. And yes, those are the very type of attitudes which make up the "basement dweller" stereotype- someone so insulated in their fandom that they are completely disconnected from reality. The attitudes range from "well they wont give us what they want so it's perfectly justified" to accusing them of "throwing a hissy fit".

I'd wonder how these same individuals would feel if they came home to find their houses robbed only to be accused of "throwing a hissy fit" or if they were faced with said hypothetical thieves had the attitude of "well they wouldn't give me what I wanted so I just went and took it; only I know they'd be thoroughly outraged.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

You're comparing this to torture, rape and murder? Are you serious? If anyone's being the lalalalalala person, it's you. What's next? Working in a bit about Hitler?

Way to completely miss the point. I actually said:

Bowspearer wrote:Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it.

In other words, anyone can justify a crime, be it on the most minor end or the most extreme end. A simple bit of common sense here would have made it pretty obvious that the only reason rape, torture and murder were brought up was to frame the other end of the spectrum and that realistically, this was far more on the shoplifting end of the spectrum than the other end of the spectrum. Also the ethics right across the scale really only differ in terms of scale.

But then why let common sense get in the way of responding to an argument right.

Very well said Sir, very well said..

Hope Everybody Is Having a relaxing Weekend!!

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:*starts out reasonable and fine, made goog points, even.*

Then we came to this:

Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Then the IQ drops to work in an offensive jab/personal attack with blanket mentality, while doing so. Throws whatever credibility and weight the post started out with, right out the window into the dumpster down below.

For your information, some of these so-called "basement dwellers" as you put it, are anything but. Good job on blanket judgments!

Bowspearer wrote:Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

And then there's this little gem, which not only continues the offensive trend, it also tells people who they really are in YOUR eyes. Just goes to show how little respect you can have for some of your fellow posters. I might not always agree with people, but dang, this was just RUDE of you.

Why would you say such disrespectful things? This war of Official V. 3rd Party doesn't affect you in any way, so why get crap started when you're intelligent enough to rise above some of the sillier comments? Also, just because someone posts something silly or in the heat of the moment, doesn't make them a lesser person, even though you obviously see it otherwise, according to what you've said in this post.

Bowspearer wrote:Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

You're comparing this to torture, rape and murder? Are you serious? If anyone's being the lalalalalala person, it's you. What's next? Working in a bit about Hitler?

You had a compelling argument with good points, but quickly threw them out in favor of "Let's be offensive and see where it takes us".

Good job. *shakes head* You can be better than this. Do it.

5150 Cruiser wrote:You know, why doesn't some of these 3rd party compaines do the right thing and contact hasbro and get PERMISSION to use the name and design?

Because the irony is that, if Hasbro says "no," it puts them in a worse position, legally.

Let's say, for example, that Hasbro takes TFC to court over the similarities between Hercules and G1 Devastator. Many of the legal arguments would no doubt surround whether TFC intentionally mimicked Dev. TFC's best defense would be to claim that it's all coincidental, and that they in fact created brand-new IP that just happened to vaguely mimic Dev in some obscure and unimportant ways.

The Hasbro lawyers would point out the similarities, the TFC lawyers would point out the differences. And then they'd send it before 12 random people off the street, who don't know the first thing about the Transformers brand and would probably think it's pretty silly to sue someone for copyright infringement over some obscure toy from over 25 years ago. In this scenario, TFC might have a decent shot at winning the case.

However, let's also say that, during the trial, it was revealed that TFC had initially contacted Hasbro and asked for permission to use the likeness of G1 Dev, and Hasbro had said "no." That radically changes the entire case. Now the Hasbro lawyers can make a very compelling argument that TFC knowingly intended to mimic G1 Dev, they knew about it ahead of time, they can't claim ignorance, and they can't argue that the similarities are just coincidental. In this scenario, TFC is sunk.

In this case, as in so many others, it really is better to beg forgiveness (or claim ignorance) than it is to ask permission.

Constantine wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:You know, why doesn't some of these 3rd party compaines do the right thing and contact hasbro and get PERMISSION to use the name and design?

Because the irony is that, if Hasbro says "no," it puts them in a worse position, legally.

Let's say, for example, that Hasbro takes TFC to court over the similarities between Hercules and G1 Devastator. Many of the legal arguments would no doubt surround whether TFC intentionally mimicked Dev. TFC's best defense would be to claim that it's all coincidental, and that they in fact created brand-new IP that just happened to vaguely mimic Dev in some obscure and unimportant ways.

The Hasbro lawyers would point out the similarities, the TFC lawyers would point out the differences. And then they'd send it before 12 random people off the street, who don't know the first thing about the Transformers brand and would probably think it's pretty silly to sue someone for copyright infringement over some obscure toy from over 25 years ago. In this scenario, TFC might have a decent shot at winning the case.

However, let's also say that, during the trial, it was revealed that TFC had initially contacted Hasbro and asked for permission to use the likeness of G1 Dev, and Hasbro had said "no." That radically changes the entire case. Now the Hasbro lawyers can make a very compelling argument that TFC knowingly intended to mimic G1 Dev, they knew about it ahead of time, they can't claim ignorance, and they can't argue that the similarities are just coincidental. In this scenario, TFC is sunk.

In this case, as in so many others, it really is better to beg forgiveness (or claim ignorance) than it is to ask permission.

One point here- the "12 people on the street" point could easily be challenged, because their intended market would easily be established as Transformers fans. You survey any fans (which would be where that was and show them a combined Hercules, it'd be instantly recognised as Devastator. At that point the case is open and shut.

Besides which the opinions of those "people on the street" about the validity of the case would be irrelevant. All that would matter would be whether it was clearly breaching licensing rights.

None of this changes the fact that 3rd Party companies are guilty of theft and anyone who buys them is guilty of knowingly buying stolen property.

Maybe Hasbro should look at how it licenses products for such small company projects, however it's Has-Tak's ownership of those designs and other related IP rights which trumps said licensing issues, rather than it being the other way around.

Bowspearer wrote:The reality which people seem to be ignoring is that this is an official Hasbro convention (even if they are using FP as a service provider to facilitate it)

Yea that's a little... wrong. HASBRO is a massive company juggling 23 toy COMPANIES (100's of toy properties) they own, Transformers is a single brand and the convention is put on by Fun Pub WITH Hasbro permission. Hasbro does very little for conventions, except events like The World Toy Fair.

Bowspearer wrote:Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

Dude, I don't care to be as snarky as you, bbuuutttt you sound like a Hater. I'm gonna venture to bet you can't swing it financially and therefore you do not approve. I find it difficult you anyone would attack the character and collecting habits of fellow enthusiasts on simple miss led moral high ground. You must have a very small collection... and you sensitive about it. Too much? Sorry, I just wanted you to see totally unnecessary it is to blast people.

Bowspearer wrote:Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

I agree with you, it is illegal. But wow, dramatic are we? You in art school aren't you?

Bowspearer wrote:Except that in terms of attitudes, they very much are. There's more to being a "basement dweller" than the literal, physical side of things- it's being so disconnected frrom reality with said fandom that all you care about is your fan fix to the point where you're oblivious to whatever real world implications go with it.

Some may be oblivious, but not all. Some say what they mean and still understand the implications. You paint a very different picture.

Bowspearer wrote:You ask why I would say such disrespectful things? The answer is that quite simply put, I'm utterly disgusted by the attitudes defending third party products and KOs, and thoroughly ashamed to be even remotely associated with them. And yes, those are the very type of attitudes which make up the "basement dweller" stereotype- someone so insulated in their fandom that they are completely disconnected from reality. The attitudes range from "well they wont give us what they want so it's perfectly justified" to accusing them of "throwing a hissy fit".

You're "utterly disgusted" on a lot of issues these days. I've yet to see a calm, easy going post or response coming from you. You are one of the most soapbox standing, rigid people I ever met. Don't be like me. I've been the unflappable loudmouth who's stood on the soapbox 'til my legs wanted to collapse.

You're ashamed to be involved with a group of people who are willing to voice their opinion? (That's what it comes down to.) We ALL know this is wrong, and yes, some are trying to justify it, because they're angry. Not everyone is a bad person. You are, without a doubt, one of the most offensive people I've ever known.

Some stuff isn't justifiable, I admit. But some of FP's stuff, such as the trailers, infringe on NOTHING. Yet You'd like to see them be strung up for their efforts. Why? It's an accessory. What would 3rd party offerings such as accessories do to your little piece of the world?

Bowspearer wrote:I'd wonder how these same individuals would feel if they came home to find their houses robbed only to be accused of "throwing a hissy fit" or if they were faced with said hypothetical thieves had the attitude of "well they wouldn't give me what I wanted so I just went and took it; only I know they'd be thoroughly outraged.

Finally, you've made a sensible point. Why can't you do more of this and whole lot less of ...everything else?

Bowspearer wrote:Way to completely miss the point.

Oh, I didn't miss the point. See? You're doing it again. Making blanket assessments of people when you haven't the right. I don't care much for your point when you stoop to low levels to make it.

Bowspearer wrote:I actually said:

Bowspearer wrote:Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it.

No, see, this is where you're wrong again. Not every person has a justification. Not everyone tries for justification. Especially on horrible things. Some might, but not all. What a horrible thing to say about the people in your fandom. Your own friends. And your comparison fodder is still leaps and bounds worse than what's going on here. They can't even compare. You are grasping at straws to win an argument that really doesn't affect you. You should be the head of the Upright Citizen's Brigade, but you'd need an oxygen tank, because you'd be so high up on that horse, you'd pass out from the lack of oxygen.

Bowspearer wrote:In other words, anyone can justify a crime, be it on the most minor end or the most extreme end. A simple bit of common sense here would have made it pretty obvious that the only reason rape, torture and murder were brought up was to frame the other end of the spectrum and that realistically, this was far more on the shoplifting end of the spectrum than the other end of the spectrum. Also the ethics right across the scale really only differ in terms of scale.

They can justify, but usually don't. Most never do. Why is it so hard for you to get that through your head? Why must you be so cruel with your labels towards your fellow fandomites? Seriously, have you ever read what you post? Have you ever stopped for a moment to think just how horrible some of the stuff you've said has been? My goodness.

Common sense DID kick in. Common sense tells me you're grasping for straws. Anyone with sensibility wouldn't compare such things to IP theft of TOYS. TOYS < RAPE, MURDER and TORTURE.

Bowspearer wrote:But then why let common sense get in the way of responding to an argument right.

Try it sometime. Use common sense in your responses, you might get something of worth accomplished.

GetRightRobot wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:The reality which people seem to be ignoring is that this is an official Hasbro convention (even if they are using FP as a service provider to facilitate it)

Yea that's a little... wrong. HASBRO is a massive company juggling 23 toy COMPANIES (100's of toy properties) they own, Transformers is a single brand and the convention is put on by Fun Pub WITH Hasbro permission. Hasbro does very little for conventions, except events like The World Toy Fair.

Actually it's entirely accurate. Yes Transformers is just one of numerous Hasbro brands, however Botcon as of the whole 3H debarcle, has been an official Hasbro Convention (albeit run through a licensed 3rd party company) for Transformers. Need I remind you of Hasbro having to step in to fix the situation with convention exclusives that year.

GetRightRobot wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

Dude, I don't care to be as snarky as you, bbuuutttt you sound like a Hater. I'm gonna venture to bet you can't swing it financially and therefore you do not approve. I find it difficult you anyone would attack the character and collecting habits of fellow enthusiasts on simple miss led moral high ground. You must have a very small collection... and you sensitive about it. Too much? Sorry, I just wanted you to see totally unnecessary it is to blast people.

Actually, my collection in the case of TFs has been refined down to about 200 pieces and includes several sealed Euro G1 pieces, a MIB C10 Bet-Gugal, a MIB Microchange Perceptor, a MIB Microchange Blaster, a MISB set of Diaclone Powerdashers and a Sealed set of Japanese Godmaster figures. It's not as big as some peoples' collections, but I'm more than happy with it for now).

That's not including the other half a dozen or so 80s toylines I also collect (including a M.A.S.K. collection which includes first shots of 5 figures and 4 masks).

GetRightRobot wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

I agree with you, it is illegal. But wow, dramatic are we? You in art school aren't you?

No, I just recognise the ethics for what they are in the situation and call the situation how it actually is. I know it's not popular, but realistically, you don't expect it to be.

Bowspearer wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:The reality which people seem to be ignoring is that this is an official Hasbro convention (even if they are using FP as a service provider to facilitate it)

Yea that's a little... wrong. HASBRO is a massive company juggling 23 toy COMPANIES (100's of toy properties) they own, Transformers is a single brand and the convention is put on by Fun Pub WITH Hasbro permission. Hasbro does very little for conventions, except events like The World Toy Fair.

Actually it's entirely accurate. Yes Transformers is just one of numerous Hasbro brands, however Botcon as of the whole 3H debarcle, has been an official Hasbro Convention (albeit run through a licensed 3rd party company) for Transformers. Need I remind you of Hasbro having to step in to fix the situation with convention exclusives that year.

GetRightRobot wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Of course, there are always those who have no life and have spent so long basement dwelling that they have no idea how the real world works and who claim that people should be able to steal Hasbro's and Takara's intellectual properties with complete impunity because Hasbro isn't giving fans what they want. These people will also accuse Hasbro of being unfair or of overreacting in this situation.

Of course these are the same basement dwellers who would go "postal worker" if someone stole their collections- for the reason of course that the hypothetical thieves felt they should just be take what they want, because said basement dweller wouldn't give them the parts of their collection that they wanted for themselves.

Dude, I don't care to be as snarky as you, bbuuutttt you sound like a Hater. I'm gonna venture to bet you can't swing it financially and therefore you do not approve. I find it difficult you anyone would attack the character and collecting habits of fellow enthusiasts on simple miss led moral high ground. You must have a very small collection... and you sensitive about it. Too much? Sorry, I just wanted you to see totally unnecessary it is to blast people.

Actually, my collection in the case of TFs has been refined down to about 200 pieces and includes several sealed Euro G1 pieces, a MIB C10 Bet-Gugal, a MIB Microchange Perceptor, a MIB Microchange Blaster, a MISB set of Diaclone Powerdashers and a Sealed set of Japanese Godmaster figures. It's not as big as some peoples' collections, but I'm more than happy with it for now).

That's not including the other half a dozen or so 80s toylines I also collect (including a M.A.S.K. collection which includes first shots of 5 figures and 4 masks).

GetRightRobot wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Even if there are no royalty obligations here, the ethics are clear cut- unlicensed products amount to theft. Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it. At the end of the day though, when looked at in the cold hard light of reality; it's still crossing a line into completely unethical behaviour whichever way you slice it - as much as all the relativists who read this will respond to it by figuratively burying their heads in the sand after figuratively cramming their fingers in their ears and screaming out "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" at the tops of their voices.

I agree with you, it is illegal. But wow, dramatic are we? You in art school aren't you?

No, I just recognise the ethics for what they are in the situation and call the situation how it actually is. I know it's not popular, but realistically, you don't expect it to be.

Those really sound like expensive figures. I've talked with several collectors who are much happier after a good downsizing (I'm considering one myself). So for that, congrats.

Ethics and morals almost always go hand in hand. To defend Hasbro on an ethically level, and then say something immoral, like attacking the character of anyone who buys 3rd party products in the same sentence is... kinda weird right?

I love 3rd party stuff, love it. I wish they would have stayed in the realm of accessories, but man some of that stuff is just flat out awesome. It has gotten too loud, and Hasbro hears it. We all knew this wave was going to crash eventually.

I'm sorry for slinging insults bro, I just don't like people attacking a collecting for his habits. We are all a little strange to be adults collecting children's toys with this much money and reverence.

On the original topic, yea, 3rd party stuff probably shouldn't be at Botcon.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Except that in terms of attitudes, they very much are. There's more to being a "basement dweller" than the literal, physical side of things- it's being so disconnected frrom reality with said fandom that all you care about is your fan fix to the point where you're oblivious to whatever real world implications go with it.

Some may be oblivious, but not all. Some say what they mean and still understand the implications. You paint a very different picture.

You're confusing being aware of the implications with being in denial about the ethics of it. Would these same fans steal money off little old ladies to get that figure they wanted, or break into someone's home and ransack their collections? As much as people might try and claim that it's ridiculous to compare these with the 3rd party situation- the ethics are the same in terms of what people are a party to.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:You ask why I would say such disrespectful things? The answer is that quite simply put, I'm utterly disgusted by the attitudes defending third party products and KOs, and thoroughly ashamed to be even remotely associated with them. And yes, those are the very type of attitudes which make up the "basement dweller" stereotype- someone so insulated in their fandom that they are completely disconnected from reality. The attitudes range from "well they wont give us what they want so it's perfectly justified" to accusing them of "throwing a hissy fit".

You're "utterly disgusted" on a lot of issues these days. I've yet to see a calm, easy going post or response coming from you. You are one of the most soapbox standing, rigid people I ever met. Don't be like me. I've been the unflappable loudmouth who's stood on the soapbox 'til my legs wanted to collapse.

You're ashamed to be involved with a group of people who are willing to voice their opinion? (That's what it comes down to.) We ALL know this is wrong, and yes, some are trying to justify it, because they're angry. Not everyone is a bad person. You are, without a doubt, one of the most offensive people I've ever known.

Some stuff isn't justifiable, I admit. But some of FP's stuff, such as the trailers, infringe on NOTHING. Yet You'd like to see them be strung up for their efforts. Why? It's an accessory. What would 3rd party offerings such as accessories do to your little piece of the world?

Except that it's not "simply for voicing an opinion"; it's justifying blatant theft so that they can selfishly "get their toy". When people say "well Hasbro wont give me what I want, so..." they might as well be Veruca Salt screaming out "I WANT IT NOW!"

Even with those trailers- take a look at the robot mode the armour forms- it's clearly the Ultra Magnus design being copied. It's the same deal with the upgrade kits that Crazydevy puts out.

It would be one thing if these guys were working with Hasbro and getting licenses or even just approval for very small runs of figures, but that isn't happening.

You say "what's the big deal" yet we've all seen where this leads to with KO Toys, where the small stuff like upgrade kits have proven to be the "thin edge of the wedge" to the point where you wind up with KOs on the markets for rare TFs which make it extremely difficult (to the point of a difference between a colon and a comma on a box in some cases) to tell whether you're getting a KO or the real deal. That kind of stuff ultimately does affect all of us collecting.

I'm all for Hasbro trying to bridge the gap with 3rd party companies in terms of licensing, but that doesn't change the ethics of unlicensed 3rd party products.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:Way to completely miss the point.

Oh, I didn't miss the point. See? You're doing it again. Making blanket assessments of people when you haven't the right. I don't care much for your point when you stoop to low levels to make it.

Except that you deliberately were missing the point. Some simple common sense would have made it clear that I was stating those examples purely to frame the other end of the scale. Yet you chose to ignore that to claim that I was directly comparing buying stolen property to the scale of torture, rape and genocide.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:I actually said:

Bowspearer wrote:Yes you can try and justify it a million and one ways under the sun, but you an say that of any crime. Whether you're talking about the lesser extreme of shoplifting, or the other end of the spectrum in the form of some gruesome torture, rape and murder; everyone has a reason or some way of justifying it.

No, see, this is where you're wrong again. Not every person has a justification. Not everyone tries for justification. Especially on horrible things. Some might, but not all. What a horrible thing to say about the people in your fandom. Your own friends. And your comparison fodder is still leaps and bounds worse than what's going on here. They can't even compare. You are grasping at straws to win an argument that really doesn't affect you. You should be the head of the Upright Citizen's Brigade, but you'd need an oxygen tank, because you'd be so high up on that horse, you'd pass out from the lack of oxygen.

Of course everyone has a justification for crossing ethical lines. Logically, to cross some ethical line, you have to be able to deem it as being acceptable in your own mind- either in the form of "it's not really that bad, because....", "I"m not really doing anything wrong because....." or "this is entirely fair, because.....". That's the reality, as much as people hate to see it. Also, whether you're talking about the lower end of the spectrum of petty theft or the most extreme end of the spectrum in the form of rape, murder and torture; you are talking about violating the rights of others for your own personal gain.

Autobot032 wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:In other words, anyone can justify a crime, be it on the most minor end or the most extreme end. A simple bit of common sense here would have made it pretty obvious that the only reason rape, torture and murder were brought up was to frame the other end of the spectrum and that realistically, this was far more on the shoplifting end of the spectrum than the other end of the spectrum. Also the ethics right across the scale really only differ in terms of scale.

They can justify, but usually don't. Most never do. Why is it so hard for you to get that through your head? Why must you be so cruel with your labels towards your fellow fandomites? Seriously, have you ever read what you post? Have you ever stopped for a moment to think just how horrible some of the stuff you've said has been? My goodness.

Of course everyone does- maybe they don't break out into some spoken aloud and conscious debate with themselves, but they do justify it within themselves at some level.

Autobot032 wrote:Common sense DID kick in. Common sense tells me you're grasping for straws. Anyone with sensibility wouldn't compare such things to IP theft of TOYS. TOYS < RAPE, MURDER and TORTURE.

Again, deliberately missing the point, and highly ironic when you accuse me of grasping at straws. While on scale they do not compare (and I never said they did), IP theft is a part of the same spectrum of injustice as rape, torture and murder, but then so is stealing 50 cents from someone. Noone of a sound mind is going to claim that stealing 50 cents from someone is on the same scale as rapping, torturing and murdering someone.

Again, you might want to try using some common sense here.

GetRightRobot wrote:Ethics and morals almost always go hand in hand. To defend Hasbro on an ethically level, and then say something immoral, like attacking the character of anyone who buys 3rd party products in the same sentence is... kinda weird right?

I love 3rd party stuff, love it. I wish they would have stayed in the realm of accessories, but man some of that stuff is just flat out awesome. It has gotten too loud, and Hasbro hears it. We all knew this wave was going to crash eventually.

I'm sorry for slinging insults bro, I just don't like people attacking a collecting for his habits. We are all a little strange to be adults collecting children's toys with this much money and reverence.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying for one minute that Hasbro don't have alot to answer for. Their foreign pricing on figures is tantamount to scalping, their CS in o/s territories is a joke and they really do take fans for granted in many ways. That's just off the top of my head.

But at the end of the day, that doesn't change the sticking point of 3rd party products being unlicensed which amounts to blatant theft of the designs- which of course leads to a slippery slope of full blown G1 knock-offs, which ultimately hurt us as fans when the companies doing it voice concerns about no discernable markings on them making them scam fodder, only to be banned on their forums for raising them.

There are so many issues here and workarounds. Even though the project has gone quiet for now, look at Spacepet and their TFC boxes with a classics Autobot City build a figure/playset. The word was that the licensing wasn't going to work for individual sales, but they were get around that by being a club where the boxes were a gift given to members. Ultimately it's still a licensed product while giving fans something HasTak would never do.

Clearly there is room to move here but yet companies would rather do things in a dodgy manner.

Under the circumstances, I can't blame Hasbro for clamping down and I hope it leads to tighter IP protection and policies on this, which both force 3rd party companies to operate under a licensed framework, and keeps things to a high standard (which can ultimately only be a bonus for us).

Ok Gandi. How fast do you drive (I assume you drive)? 5 over the speed limit, that's the same as raping babies. Oh yes it is, if you go 5mph over the posted legal speed limit, you rape babies.

Making toys that capitalize on someone's else IP is not like stealing from an old lady. Unless and old lady has some non-material, thoughts or ideas someone could steal from her.

Are you sure you're not a 16 year high school girl? You are EXTREMELY dramatic, and exaggerated.

I'm not arguing that KO boxed g1's sucks, but how does that take money from Hasbro's pockets? Anything on the secondary market does nothing to effect Hasbro's bottom line. Why? 'Cause Hasbro doesn't dabble in Ebay. I'm not justifying that 3rd parties make what they make only because Transformers sell, but Jesus man, calm down. Are you a collector or a stock holder?

GetRightRobot wrote:On the original topic, yea, 3rd party stuff probably shouldn't be at Botcon.

I don't see a problem with accessories, it's the figures that have increased
the drama. Yes they are all pretty much impressive because, much like a microbrew, are done with attention to detail and there is some personal love through the whole process. Not having 15 bosses breathing down your neck
makes work go a lot smoother, something large businesses do not excel at.

Hasbro would be better off to cut a deal with 3rd party toys like Takara does w\ Wonderfests and offer a one day license at Botcon. This would place certain safety practices in hand for things people don't even think about, like how do we know lead based paint isn't used on some of these toys?
There is an accountability that Hasbro feels they need to look at even though the product isn't theirs' that could still hurt their image.

Interesting to see Hasbro finally (apparently) doing something about 3rd party and KO's, at least at BotCon itself. I remember some hard talk during the Hasbro panels during past years while at the exact same time, a few hundred yards away you had a dealer room littered not only with 3rd party but some pretty blatant knockoffs (i.e., the super real looking kind in repro G1 boxes)

Delicon wrote:Interesting to see Hasbro finally (apparently) doing something about 3rd party and KO's, at least at BotCon itself. I remember some hard talk during the Hasbro panels during past years while at the exact same time, a few hundred yards away you had a dealer room littered not only with 3rd party but some pretty blatant knockoffs (i.e., the super real looking kind in repro G1 boxes)

This was certainly inevitable. I remember a short time ago, a brick and mortar store in Japan got some heat about stocking 3rd party items. I wonder how far the law will reach if Has/Tak sought legal action. One thing about American Intellectual Property Laws, they only govern Americans.

I'm having such a hard time understanding this, really. We have had many a discussion on here about Hasbro and them not giving, for the most part, what the COLLECTORS want, right? It has been said by some people that Hasbro ultimately thinks of the kids as their main line of profit, and that us, the COLLECTORS, are in actuality, are only 10% of their profit, right? We are now discussing how Hasbro is now starting to come down on 3rd party guys, but isn't the 3rd party makers specifically for the COLLECTOR? And since we are only 10% of those who actually buy for collection, why should it really hurt Hasbro since 90% of their money comes from the kids?

Sure, I'm going to get picked apart by what I'm trying to say, and NO I do have all info on markets and how all that stuff actually works, but I'm going by what I, the CONSUMER, want. And if I remember correctly, the consumers play the biggest part. No consumer, no product ultimately. Hasbro has more than just a Transformers line in the market. They have multiple toy lines and probably other items not toy related I don't know of. We, the COLLECTOR are only 10% (going by some people who have defended the fact of Hasbro not giving us what we want in some areas) of just one of the many different toy lines Hasbro has. 3rd party toy makers stepped in and said' "we will fill in the gap for the 10%". Now, it seems, Hasbro is taking offense, but to what?- the mere 10% of one toy line when they have so many other toy lines and whatever else they control making them money? Looks like greed to me.

Remember, this is my opinion with info I have read on these boards, not an attempt at being all knowledgeable at whats goin on.

GetRightRobot wrote:Ok Gandi. How fast do you drive (I assume you drive)? 5 over the speed limit, that's the same as raping babies. Oh yes it is, if you go 5mph over the posted legal speed limit, you rape babies.

Strawman argument much? For the record, I always drive just under the speed limit. However if I sped and it caused an accident where someone, say a baby, died an horrific death in a car accident, then I would be guilty of murdering a baby. In that example, it would be a reasonable comparison. In other cases though, you should do yourself a favour and go grab a dictionary and look up the words "scale" and "spectrum", because your failure to comprehend the difference between the two has amounted to an epic fail.

GetRightRobot wrote:Making toys that capitalize on someone's else IP is not like stealing from an old lady. Unless and old lady has some non-material, thoughts or ideas someone could steal from her.

Of course it is- theft is theft. Whether you are talking about ideas or material goods, you are stealing from others for personal gain. It really is that black and white.

GetRightRobot wrote:You are EXTREMELY dramatic, and exaggerated.

Said the blind man.

GetRightRobot wrote:I'm not arguing that KO boxed g1's sucks, but how does that take money from Hasbro's pockets? Anything on the secondary market does nothing to effect Hasbro's bottom line. Why? 'Cause Hasbro doesn't dabble in Ebay.

Really so licensing revenue doesn't exist? Wow, just wow.

GetRightRobot wrote:I'm not justifying that 3rd parties make what they make only because Transformers sell, but Jesus man, calm down. Are you a collector or a stock holder?

Really, so you didn't just try and claim that theft wasn't really theft or that licensing revenue didn't exist? Revisionism much? As for your question- I'm a collector that can spot the slippery slope that gave us KO Toys a mile off and hates what it's done to the vintage collecting community in terms of scams.

DISCHARGE wrote:I don't see a problem with accessories, it's the figures that have increased the drama.

Which is an oxymoron when you think about the slippery slope of all this. It starts out with accessories where people "fill a gap in the market". Then they wind up being sold without there being any issues from Hasbro, so then someone decides to do figures that are loosely based on TF designs. They get through without a hitch, so then someone decides to do "Masterpiece" versions of toys, like Arcee or the Minicars. Then that gets through ok, so someone decides to take it to the next step which is the extreme and you wind up with KO Toys. Now that might seem wonderful, but those us on the receiving end of a scammer in some of these cases know just how how "scepial" that experience is.

DISCHARGE wrote:Hasbro would be better off to cut a deal with 3rd party toys like Takara does w\ Wonderfests and offer a one day license at Botcon. This would place certain safety practices in hand for things people don't even think about, like how do we know lead based paint isn't used on some of these toys?
There is an accountability that Hasbro feels they need to look at even though the product isn't theirs' that could still hurt their image.

This would be the ideal way to go and hopefully they do look at it. I completely agree about the QC issues as well, but ultimately it's entirely their call. Yes we may not like it, but if they choose not to meet 3rd parties in the middle and to take a hard-line approach, then that is entirely their right as the IP owners.

headsortails wrote:I'm having such a hard time understanding this, really. We have had many a discussion on here about Hasbro and them not giving, for the most part, what the COLLECTORS want, right? It has been said by some people that Hasbro ultimately thinks of the kids as their main line of profit, and that us, the COLLECTORS, are in actuality, are only 10% of their profit, right? We are now discussing how Hasbro is now starting to come down on 3rd party guys, but isn't the 3rd party makers specifically for the COLLECTOR? And since we are only 10% of those who actually buy for collection, why should it really hurt Hasbro since 90% of their money comes from the kids?

Sure, I'm going to get picked apart by what I'm trying to say, and NO I do have all info on markets and how all that stuff actually works, but I'm going by what I, the CONSUMER, want. And if I remember correctly, the consumers play the biggest part. No consumer, no product ultimately. Hasbro has more than just a Transformers line in the market. They have multiple toy lines and probably other items not toy related I don't know of. We, the COLLECTOR are only 10% (going by some people who have defended the fact of Hasbro not giving us what we want in some areas) of just one of the many different toy lines Hasbro has. 3rd party toy makers stepped in and said' "we will fill in the gap for the 10%". Now, it seems, Hasbro is taking offense, but to what?- the mere 10% of one toy line when they have so many other toy lines and whatever else they control making them money? Looks like greed to me.

Remember, this is my opinion with info I have read on these boards, not an attempt at being all knowledgeable at whats goin on.

So if someone wanted something you had and you wouldn't give it to them, you'd honestly be ok with them breaking into your home and stealing it? I highly doubt it. Yet that's what you're claiming is ok regarding Hasbro's IPs because of what you want.

Yes Hasbro have created a need for this in the market by not producing it, but regardless of what the consumer wants; those IPs still belong to HasTak who can decide to market them however they wish, and producing toys based on them without paying Hasbro for the use of those IPs is outright theft, no matter how much you try and sugarcoat it.

I completely agree with you.. But the good news is, is that hasbro can only do so much.
Since this thread started, Ive purchased 3 more 3rd party toys! And Hasbro, none for you!!!

headsortails wrote:I'm having such a hard time understanding this, really. We have had many a discussion on here about Hasbro and them not giving, for the most part, what the COLLECTORS want, right? It has been said by some people that Hasbro ultimately thinks of the kids as their main line of profit, and that us, the COLLECTORS, are in actuality, are only 10% of their profit, right? We are now discussing how Hasbro is now starting to come down on 3rd party guys, but isn't the 3rd party makers specifically for the COLLECTOR? And since we are only 10% of those who actually buy for collection, why should it really hurt Hasbro since 90% of their money comes from the kids?

Sure, I'm going to get picked apart by what I'm trying to say, and NO I do have all info on markets and how all that stuff actually works, but I'm going by what I, the CONSUMER, want. And if I remember correctly, the consumers play the biggest part. No consumer, no product ultimately. Hasbro has more than just a Transformers line in the market. They have multiple toy lines and probably other items not toy related I don't know of. We, the COLLECTOR are only 10% (going by some people who have defended the fact of Hasbro not giving us what we want in some areas) of just one of the many different toy lines Hasbro has. 3rd party toy makers stepped in and said' "we will fill in the gap for the 10%". Now, it seems, Hasbro is taking offense, but to what?- the mere 10% of one toy line when they have so many other toy lines and whatever else they control making them money? Looks like greed to me.

Remember, this is my opinion with info I have read on these boards, not an attempt at being all knowledgeable at whats goin on.

Bowspearer wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:Ok Gandi. How fast do you drive (I assume you drive)? 5 over the speed limit, that's the same as raping babies. Oh yes it is, if you go 5mph over the posted legal speed limit, you rape babies.

Strawman argument much? For the record, I always drive just under the speed limit. However if I sped and it caused an accident where someone, say a baby, died an horrific death in a car accident, then I would be guilty of murdering a baby. In that example, it would be a reasonable comparison. In other cases though, you should do yourself a favour and go grab a dictionary and look up the words "scale" and "spectrum", because your failure to comprehend the difference between the two has amounted to an epic fail.

GetRightRobot wrote:Making toys that capitalize on someone's else IP is not like stealing from an old lady. Unless and old lady has some non-material, thoughts or ideas someone could steal from her.

Of course it is- theft is theft. Whether you are talking about ideas or material goods, you are stealing from others for personal gain. It really is that black and white.

GetRightRobot wrote:You are EXTREMELY dramatic, and exaggerated.

Said the blind man.

GetRightRobot wrote:I'm not arguing that KO boxed g1's sucks, but how does that take money from Hasbro's pockets? Anything on the secondary market does nothing to effect Hasbro's bottom line. Why? 'Cause Hasbro doesn't dabble in Ebay.

Really so licensing revenue doesn't exist? Wow, just wow.

GetRightRobot wrote:I'm not justifying that 3rd parties make what they make only because Transformers sell, but Jesus man, calm down. Are you a collector or a stock holder?

Really, so you didn't just try and claim that theft wasn't really theft or that licensing revenue didn't exist? Revisionism much? As for your question- I'm a collector that can spot the slippery slope that gave us KO Toys a mile off and hates what it's done to the vintage collecting community in terms of scams.

DISCHARGE wrote:I don't see a problem with accessories, it's the figures that have increased the drama.

Which is an oxymoron when you think about the slippery slope of all this. It starts out with accessories where people "fill a gap in the market". Then they wind up being sold without there being any issues from Hasbro, so then someone decides to do figures that are loosely based on TF designs. They get through without a hitch, so then someone decides to do "Masterpiece" versions of toys, like Arcee or the Minicars. Then that gets through ok, so someone decides to take it to the next step which is the extreme and you wind up with KO Toys. Now that might seem wonderful, but those us on the receiving end of a scammer in some of these cases know just how how "scepial" that experience is.

DISCHARGE wrote:Hasbro would be better off to cut a deal with 3rd party toys like Takara does w\ Wonderfests and offer a one day license at Botcon. This would place certain safety practices in hand for things people don't even think about, like how do we know lead based paint isn't used on some of these toys?
There is an accountability that Hasbro feels they need to look at even though the product isn't theirs' that could still hurt their image.

This would be the ideal way to go and hopefully they do look at it. I completely agree about the QC issues as well, but ultimately it's entirely their call. Yes we may not like it, but if they choose not to meet 3rd parties in the middle and to take a hard-line approach, then that is entirely their right as the IP owners.

Ok man, you're a perfect law abiding, sin free, moral sound, superior ass. I'm sure your moral perfection makes you a lot of money/friends/general success, because wow you seem like a REALLY fun guy. I've been patient and tried to lighten the mood. You obviously have no sense of scale. As there are levels of crime there must be levels of theft. Manslaughter-Murder in the 1st. NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT IP THEFT IS THEFT. You accuse people of blindness when you yourself can't see the underlying issue.

How about this: I'll put my Hercules next to ROTF Devastator and you tell me which one is superior.

What's Hasbro going to do to a company that operates in Singapore or Taiwan or Sweden. B***H all you want, it's going to continue to happen until the market dissipates. Besides, according to you, your not even supporting Hasbro. You collect collectables, not toys in current markets. Discussing this with you is going to lead to problems. You are dull, close minded, and dramatic like a small child. You attitude towards fellow fans is disgusting and I can just bet you're REEAALLL popular with the ladies.

You're as much fun as a bag of dirty laundry.