The Energon Pub

I keep coming back to the whole confiscate/turn over to the authorities thing.

It reeeeeally bothers me.

1.) The product, at least visually, in package, looks like a legitimate item. (The police have only Hasbro's word on whether or not the items are, in fact, illegitimate.) A cop worth his weight in donuts would say "Look, you're just bustin' balls here. To me, it looks like a real toy. Don't like it? Tough deal. As far as I see, no laws have been broken here."

2.) The seller PAID to have that item in stock. Until it sells, it's THEIR own property. (Hasbro has NO right to take someone's own property from them. I can't even believe they were ballsy enough to say such a thing.)

3.) They're basically calling their dealers liars and thieves. (Bear with me...) How, you ask?
Well, they'd be telling police "This infringes on our copyright. It's a knock off, knock offs are illegal. This seller is a pirate." By confiscating, they'd be saying "We're taking OUR IP back from you, since you stole it by proxy. That makes you a thief. At the very least, you've aided and abetted in an international crime."

For all intents and purposes, the sellers are merely pushing a product, that for all intents and purposes IS a legal item. Until it's actually blacklisted by name, by company and by legal document, the product is legal to some extent. Especially add on accessories such as the WFC axe, or the FP trailers such as City Commander and Protector. Those two pieces DO function as accessory pieces for an official Hasbro product, but they don't HAVE to. They could be used for anything. On their own, they are harmless. iGear, well, that's a given, but they need to be careful on how they proceed with this.

They're treading on shaky ground and it could backfire in their faces.

Like I said earlier, it's their convention, their IP, their right to protect it. They have every right to ask dealers NOT to bring these wares to the sales floor, itself. They have every right to ask the dealer to remove themselves and their products from the premises without reimbursement for lost money.

But confiscate? Involve the law? I don't think so. I don't care for how it's worded, I don't care for the threatening nature of it all.

They're enforcing this because it has to appear that they're at least fighting to protect what's their's and that's fine, too. Just don't threaten. There are other ways to do it, ya know?

Autobot032 wrote:I keep coming back to the whole confiscate/turn over to the authorities thing.

It reeeeeally bothers me.

...

Like I said earlier, it's their convention, their IP, their right to protect it. They have every right to ask dealers NOT to bring these wares to the sales floor, itself. They have every right to ask the dealer to remove themselves and their products from the premises without reimbursement for lost money.

As I said earlier, that's all they can do. For them to "confiscate" anything is plain theft. They have no legal right to do so, and should they even attempt that, a quick call to the police would straighten them right out.

Dealers legally purchased those items from the manufacturers; those items are *their* property. There is no legal gray area here.

The onlyOnlyONLY time that anyone has a right to physically take anything from someone else is when it was originally their property and was then stolen. And even then, possession is (literally) 9/10 of the law, and they must be able to conclusively prove that it was theirs to begin with. And we're talking about "theirs" in the physical possession sense, like a bicycle or a car. There is not a single police officer anywhere who would ever go along with "I have a right to seize this item because it derives from my intellectual property."

Hasbro knows this, they aren't stupid. The best they can do is order the dealer from the premises, and there might be some wrangling over reimbursement of dealer fees. There is not even an infinitesimally tiny sliver of a chance that any Hasbro representative or employee would ever be stupid enough to try to confiscate any 3rd party products.

they just dont want to see that the 3rd party stuff is better than their crap these days, if you were to take a 3rd party figure and put it next to a DOTM figure and ask someone which is a KO they'll probably say the DOTM figure. What i dont get is can they really do this for all 3rd party stuff, half the time no names or trademarked stuff is used all. If you really look at them all they really are are just transforming robot toys, if thats infringement then you better not go to japan cause every other company has a transforming robot toy these days. And saying that this one figure looks like this character we made is pushing it cause all that would need to be said is "oh yeah well that charter inspired this toy and is just an homage to it, we're selling it here cause we thought the transformer fans would like it". This is more or less just a scare tactic unless they have an actual list of what individual items are allowed to be there and what items are contraband. I hate to say this cause im sure they'll actually do it but without alot of work all they can do is say that if theres no hasbro or takara trademark on the item its not allowed, if there is a trademark from either company then its ok.

Autobot032 wrote:I keep coming back to the whole confiscate/turn over to the authorities thing.

It reeeeeally bothers me.

1.) The product, at least visually, in package, looks like a legitimate item. (The police have only Hasbro's word on whether or not the items are, in fact, illegitimate.) A cop worth his weight in donuts would say "Look, you're just bustin' balls here. To me, it looks like a real toy. Don't like it? Tough deal. As far as I see, no laws have been broken here."

2.) The seller PAID to have that item in stock. Until it sells, it's THEIR own property. (Hasbro has NO right to take someone's own property from them. I can't even believe they were ballsy enough to say such a thing.)

3.) They're basically calling their dealers liars and thieves. (Bear with me...) How, you ask?
Well, they'd be telling police "This infringes on our copyright. It's a knock off, knock offs are illegal. This seller is a pirate." By confiscating, they'd be saying "We're taking OUR IP back from you, since you stole it by proxy. That makes you a thief. At the very least, you've aided and abetted in an international crime."

For all intents and purposes, the sellers are merely pushing a product, that for all intents and purposes IS a legal item. Until it's actually blacklisted by name, by company and by legal document, the product is legal to some extent. Especially add on accessories such as the WFC axe, or the FP trailers such as City Commander and Protector. Those two pieces DO function as accessory pieces for an official Hasbro product, but they don't HAVE to. They could be used for anything. On their own, they are harmless. iGear, well, that's a given, but they need to be careful on how they proceed with this.

They're treading on shaky ground and it could backfire in their faces.

Like I said earlier, it's their convention, their IP, their right to protect it. They have every right to ask dealers NOT to bring these wares to the sales floor, itself. They have every right to ask the dealer to remove themselves and their products from the premises without reimbursement for lost money.

But confiscate? Involve the law? I don't think so. I don't care for how it's worded, I don't care for the threatening nature of it all.

They're enforcing this because it has to appear that they're at least fighting to protect what's their's and that's fine, too. Just don't threaten. There are other ways to do it, ya know?

If Hasbro cannot dictate what can or cannot be sold at THEIR convention, then I can set up a dealerstand selling blow-up partysheep. No one can take my stuff, right? Not even if I promise to only sell Transformers up front.

RhA wrote:If Hasbro cannot dictate what can or cannot be sold at THEIR convention, then I can set up a dealerstand selling blow-up partysheep. No one can take my stuff, right? Not even if I promise to only sell Transformers up front.

WTF? Are you serious? That's not even at all what I said. Nowhere, not once.

I said they have every right to dictate what can and cannot be sold at their convention.

I said I have problems with the confiscation/threat portion of the notice.

Please, please, please READ what I posted. Don't piece together pieces of it to make it into something it's really not.

I like you, dude. I really do. Let's not let a lack of understanding change that.

Court Jester wrote:

Confiscation of toys - under any circumstance - is douchebaggery - and I gotta call shenanigans. Sure, it's legal to do so. Sure, they have the right to stipulate anything under their official convention. But, this doesn't sound extreme to anyone? These are goods that have been legally bought by the dealers - most of which do not directly bootleg any official molds of Hasbro or actually cross the line of IP theft defined by the courts of our nation. But to take said goods without payment is just point. blank. wrong.

Agreed!


El Duque wrote:

All this really means is you'll being seeing/buying third-party items in the dealers private hotel rooms rather than the actual dealer room.

YYYeeeuup! Agreed.

KyleHudson1996 wrote:

God ppl, stop backing up Hasbro b/c we all know they can do better.

Yea, I don't think their pulling their weight here. They have such a potential market for growth through good product production and their just not meeting up to their potential...period. And now to be all big and bad and c__k block 3rd party stuff like this just wreaks of desperation on their part.

Rated-X wrote:

Sadly, this will be my last year at Botcon. Id rather spend extra money on aftermarket e-bay prices than on a plane ticket and hotel to see a room full of Hasbro crap. I’m sure Funpub just put the nail in their own coffin. Selling dealers tickets months ago and announcing this at the last minute is a really low blow.................The good news is there will be plenty of 3rd party stuff for sale in hotel rooms and parking lots after 430 PM. If you want some of that “plastic crack” then just holla at the dope man slangin on the corner.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to say that in all likleyhood that this would probobly be my last Botcon. I don't think Hasbro realizes yet just how big of a mistake this is. Alienating a huge portion of your customer base is just not logical...
And the dumbest part of all of this is this is an anouncment that should be made right AFTER a Botcon event in preparation for next year, not right BEFORE. Many of us have made plans etc under the assumption that we would have access to all types of "bot" stuff, official and otherwise. Does this mean that vendors can't sell any Ghostbuster, StarWars, or any of the other myriad of items I've seen offered at a Botcon in previous years? How do they plan on policing this policy. This was a real poopy thing to do at the last minute Hasbro. Between this and TFCC's debacle, I think I'm going to have to take a break from this hobby for a while. It's just become a huge hassle and it isn't fun anymore. And for those of you defending Hasbro's action on this thread, maybe Hasbro will bring some Stormtrooper outfits for you to wear and deputize you as official watchdogs of the Botconian Empire for a more safe and secure society. You all can go around undercover and expose all of the backroom plastic crack deals that will ensue because of this. And you call yourselves Transfans?
I know Transformers as a franchise will survive this, but this feels like the begining of some dark forshadowing times ahead.
So in recent years I've had to endure: Bayformers craptacular film franchise...TF Prime shinanigans...TFCC butt-rape...and now the arrogance of HasTak...

I tell you, it just doesn't pay to be a Generation-1 Transformers fan these days.
Thanks Hasbro, and big "F" you, right back at ya!

Vicalliose wrote:The issue to me here is they state that the majority of their profits come from children under 13 and they treat the Club as just something to throw the collectors market a bone, yet they treat 3rd party companies as if they are somehow capable of damaging their profits. Legal implications aside they simply should not care.

You're working on the assumption it's about protecting their profits. I see it as them protecting their property (which flows on to profits)

G1 Legacy wrote: I don't think Hasbro realizes yet just how big of a mistake this is. Alienating a huge portion of your customer base is just not logical...

Well, your buying 3rd party eliminates you as their customer base.
You are supporting off brand companies, not Hasbro.

G1 Legacy wrote:And the dumbest part of all of this is this is an anouncment that should be made right AFTER a Botcon event in preparation for next year, not right BEFORE.

We'll have to wait and see how this impacts dealers on the floor.

G1 Legacy wrote: Many of us have made plans etc under the assumption that we would have access to all types of "bot" stuff, official and otherwise.

Plans change, it's not like you can't order 3rd party now online, and guess what, you'll have it in hand way before the event.

G1 Legacy wrote:Does this mean that vendors can't sell any Ghostbuster, StarWars, or any of the other myriad of items I've seen offered at a Botcon in previous years?

Well, Star wars is a Hasbro brand and Ghostbusters isn't ripping off IP from Transformers as a brand.

G1 Legacy wrote: How do they plan on policing this policy. This was a real poopy thing to do at the last minute Hasbro.

It certainly throws a wrench into the works for many people.

G1 Legacy wrote: Between this and TFCC's debacle, I think I'm going to have to take a break from this hobby for a while. It's just become a huge hassle and it isn't fun anymore. And for those of you defending Hasbro's action on this thread, maybe Hasbro will bring some Stormtrooper outfits for you to wear and deputize you as official watchdogs of the Botconian Empire for a more safe and secure society. You all can go around undercover and expose all of the backroom plastic crack deals that will ensue because of this. And you call yourselves Transfans?

Dude, if Hasbro gave me Stormtrooper gear you better bet I would wear it.

G1 Legacy wrote:I know Transformers as a franchise will survive this, but this feels like the begining of some dark forshadowing times ahead.
So in recent years I've had to endure: Bayformers craptacular film franchise...TF Prime shinanigans...TFCC butt-rape...and now the arrogance of HasTak...

I tell you, it just doesn't pay to be a Generation-1 Transformers fan these days.
Thanks Hasbro, and big "F" you, right back at ya!

It's Botcon, Hasbro's officially licensed convention, not Transformingrobotscon. If you are a G1 collector I don't quite understand your position of angst. The only G1 toys made by 3rd party companies are direct bootlegs. Any true G1 collector wouldn't waste his time with bootlegs, the collection would be as fake as the toys themselves.

That really seems silly but not really surprising of course. I don't go to the cons but if I did, I would want to see everything Transformers related. Letting third party's do somethings inspire and strengthen the community and culture for all. At the very least, Hasbro and Takara should think about letting third party join/license/or register in some way that they can still exist, but not profit too much on a license owned by someone else. I dunno, I am bummed to here that news.

Thetoymuseum wrote:That really seems silly but not really surprising of course. I don't go to the cons but if I did, I would want to see everything Transformers related. Letting third party's do somethings inspire and strengthen the community and culture for all. At the very least, Hasbro and Takara should think about letting third party join/license/or register in some way that they can still exist, but not profit too much on a license owned by someone else. I dunno, I am bummed to here that news.

Takara is a bit more laid back in that aspect: it has granted special 1-day selling licenses for some 3rd party products.

And I'll leave with this quote:

"Never bite the hand that feeds you"

Up to you to figure it out.

Almagnus1 wrote:Hasbro really needs a Transformers line aimed at the adult collector - it's the niche the 3rd Parties are filling.

Or perhaps create some way to bring the 3rd Parties into the fold and profit off of them.

I believe they already have - that's what the Masterpiece line is for, right? But I would totally support, both verbally and financially, a mainstream deluxe-to-leader class line, available on the shelves, that was more aimed at homages and adult collectors.

As soon as I typed that, I realized that line is Classics. So to sum all this up... they just need to bring back an official Classics line, instead of a few figures here and there.

Autobot032 wrote:

RhA wrote:If Hasbro cannot dictate what can or cannot be sold at THEIR convention, then I can set up a dealerstand selling blow-up partysheep. No one can take my stuff, right? Not even if I promise to only sell Transformers up front.

WTF? Are you serious? That's not even at all what I said. Nowhere, not once.

I said they have every right to dictate what can and cannot be sold at their convention.

I said I have problems with the confiscation/threat portion of the notice.

Please, please, please READ what I posted. Don't piece together pieces of it to make it into something it's really not.

I like you, dude. I really do. Let's not let a lack of understanding change that.

I discuss with people I like in real life all the time. It´s the people that provoke thought I usually like, so there´s a compliment for you. Never a hard feeling!

Back on track: I feel it's a lot simpler then you make it out to be, if Hasbro wants to ban 3rd party stuff, they have their right to do so. For whatever reason! You list a series of things Hasbro COULD do, bringing it back to 'why' they can, my argument holds up fine. What they do if 3rd party stuff does get in... is up in the air. At the very base I think they can call the cops on it in an extreme case. Cops are not meant to discuss the law with who they arrest, that's what we got lawyers for. They only pop out afterwards.

Hoitytoity wrote:

Almagnus1 wrote:Hasbro really needs a Transformers line aimed at the adult collector - it's the niche the 3rd Parties are filling.

Or perhaps create some way to bring the 3rd Parties into the fold and profit off of them.

I believe they already have - that's what the Masterpiece line is for, right? But I would totally support, both verbally and financially, a mainstream deluxe-to-leader class line, available on the shelves, that was more aimed at homages and adult collectors.

As soon as I typed that, I realized that line is Classics. So to sum all this up... they just need to bring back an official Classics line, instead of a few figures here and there.

Yup. Usually ugrades and stuff center around fan-favorite stuff Hasbro already put out or a concept we really like. Hasbro knows what makes s happy and they DO listen.

I'm looking at my Generations Skyshadow and feel happy as a clam.

Discharge wrote:

Well, your buying 3rd party eliminates you as their customer base.
You are supporting off brand companies, not Hasbro.

Oh no,no,no your not getting away with that, it's not as cut and dry as that and I suspect you know better. I have an entire stash of HASBRO products going back decades. ALOT of third party items are designed to enhance or improve Hasbro's existing stock figures and actually encourages sales of said figures by the lure of customization options etc.
Beezleboss replacement heads for BumbleBee/Cliffjumper for example. FansProject Superion and Bruticus Upgrades....Ultra Magnus, HotRod Parallax upgrades....Optimus Prime Trailer + accesories. Any of the numerous items that Venksta puts out through his Renderform company....all of these afformentioned items are third party but are designed to coinside with existing HASBRO TAKARA products.....Soooooo YES, I am their customer base! If they would pay more attention and show clear outward willingness to listen to customer feedback and the wants and needs of the people who pay for their salaries, their might not be such a need for 3rd party accesories now would there?
The bottom line is it's human nature to want to customize stuff, human beings have been doing it from the begining (just look at society, automotive, fashion trends etc etc). Hasbro knows this and yet their still choosing to go this route to cut off their nose just to spite their face and its not wise. Yes time will tell, yes we "the hardcore fanbase" will adapt either way, and yes its dumb to pull the rug out from under people that signed up expecting "A" and then serving them "B". Thats not good business ethic and it demonstrates a lack of patience and acceptance of this hobby and how its expanding outsiide of the control of HAS/TAK.
(and I'm aware that I'm impatient and intolerant myself on the film franchise, thats just my opinion as a person that grew up with G1).
Yes its a HASBRO's Transformers Botcon, not Gobots or Gundam etc, but they know that its grown to become more than just a simple TF convention, I mean people's vacations and social lives revolve around this event now...do you think that these people who take this hobby this seriously are just gonna let HASBRO call all of the shots over this hobby that many of us are passionate about? I dont think so...

So, "WELL" excuse my angst.

Since Hasbro definitely has the power to shut down the sale of 3rd party figures if they find whichever one is worth attacking with their army of lawyers, its probably best to just let Hasbro have Botcon... I mean, If you ask me, thats just one convention. I rather just go along with a few of the little things as long as they are not shutting down actual 3rd party figures. I'd be very dissapointed if Hexatron was suddenly cancelled because of Hasbro. But then I also hope that this event doesn't lead to more and more bannings of 3rd party whatever.

Burn wrote:

bionic_radical wrote:You clearly have never been pushed, sir. And by categorizing a group of people you most certainly are baiting with that comment. If calling you out on that would be pushing, I don't know what to tell you. Once again, please refrain.

So now you're challenging me?

Okay. Fine. Please explain to me how I have categorised a group of people. Because I called 3rd party companies unoriginal? That's my opinion, that's how I see it. They take existing characters, existing looks, and give their spin on it. The spin is original, I'll concede that, but the look, the essence of the character, they had nothing to do with that. Unoriginal.

Or am I categorising in another way?

And I've clearly taken the bait.

Burn wrote: Please explain to me how I have categorised a group of people. Because I called 3rd party companies unoriginal?

No, I'm referring to its "rabid supporters", as you put it. Rabid by definition being extremely zealous or enthusiastic; fanatical, even.

I can't say that I would throw everyone that buys a third party item as "rabid", but ok, some people DO go nuts for these things. The problem lies in the fact that you claim that thing which these people are all about are a product of laziness, and by proxy, labeling those people.

You claim "these people" are "anti-Hasbro". Do I really need to explain to you how that is labeling a group of people?

Furthermore, you know this is a matter that has people up in arms about, and you know that third party supporters are going to be reading this post. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but this clearly seems as though you're trying to pick a fight. I don't see this as being the first time you've done it either.

I have now lost all desire to go to another Botcon,(unlass its for a voice actor) all the good stuff is 3rd party. I'm so sorry Hasbro that last year TF Source showed you up! Most the larger companies like TF Source, that's almost all they carry. I-Gear, Crazy Devy, BTTS, TFC, JustToys, Impossible Toys, etc.. Hasbro, you killed the franchise back in 1986 with a movie that showed us all you don't care about the fans. You murdered all the characters we loved so you could sell more toys. And now that Bay has brought the franchise back wit his action filled yet story (where) and writing (by a monkey) movies, your going to kill it again! How about openning a website like Matty Collector, and give us diehard fans the high end toys we love. "Masterpiece, more detailed versions of the G1 Guys like IGear is doing, A FLIPPING ALPHA TRION for Gods sake, Arcee, the Quints!" Redo the entire first series of G1 in a special set like Takara is doing. Stop whining about Molds, the 3rd party places have them, borrow theirs. lol. You just laid off 700 people, expect that number to increase if you continue to ignore the fans. We'd prefer to buy from hasbro, if youd just give us what we ask for! (Just my 2 cents).

The word "original" is thrown around a lot these days. I think calling 3rd party figures unoriginal on the basis that they did not create the character it is based off is kind of ridiculous. Transformers have been making the same characters in shows/movies/toys for a long time... that can be viewed as being unoriginal... A gundum robot that also has an alternate mode... you could call that unoriginal too... In the end, there is really very little "originality" in anything. Most everything in Transformers is a new version of the same idea; Transforming robots. Who cares about originality. I don't even see how the arguement is relevant to the thread topic. I bought another pair of jeans today. I'm unoriginal. Maybe I should make my own pants out of meat..
oh wait...

Mindvvipe wrote:

I bought another pair of jeans today. I'm unoriginal. Maybe I should make my own pants out of meat..
oh wait.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am not surprised by Hasbro's move. It makes perfect sense and it si smart of them to excercise their rights. I am curious how it will literally be enforced. Will FunPub be walking around in the dealer rooms enforcing?

Transformersemporium wrote:

I have now lost all desire to go to another Botcon,(unlass its for a voice actor) all the good stuff is 3rd party. I'm so sorry Hasbro that last year TF Source showed you up! Most the larger companies like TF Source, that's almost all they carry. I-Gear, Crazy Devy, BTTS, TFC, JustToys, Impossible Toys, etc.. Hasbro, you killed the franchise back in 1986 with a movie that showed us all you don't care about the fans. You murdered all the characters we loved so you could sell more toys. And now that Bay has brought the franchise back wit his action filled yet story (where) and writing (by a monkey) movies, your going to kill it again! How about openning a website like Matty Collector, and give us diehard fans the high end toys we love. "Masterpiece, more detailed versions of the G1 Guys like IGear is doing, A FLIPPING ALPHA TRION for Gods sake, Arcee, the Quints!" Redo the entire first series of G1 in a special set like Takara is doing. Stop whining about Molds, the 3rd party places have them, borrow theirs. lol. You just laid off 700 people, expect that number to increase if you continue to ignore the fans. We'd prefer to buy from hasbro, if youd just give us what we ask for! (Just my 2 cents).

Thats all I've been trying to say. Kudos good sir!

This would bother me less if 3rd party products had never been allowed at BotCon. As it is it's a bit childish: like Hasbro is the big popular kid at school who says the geeky new kid can play in his area just so he can prove what a loser he is. But the new kid isn't all that bad and the big kid's friends start to like him, so then the big kid gets jealous and kicks him out. (And before any smart arses out there suggest it no, I am not recalling a personal experience )

3rd party stuff is bought exclusively by the collectors i.e. not the main source of Hasbro's income. People from Hasbro have acknowledged the rise of 3rd party producers is because they themselves are not providing what collectors want, but that doesn't mean they give a crap. I've heard all the excuses why HasTak don't make the sort of things 3rd parties do, and granted a lot of those excuses are valid, but if they were really bothered they'd find a way of doing it anyway. This move just strikes me as petty. It's not so much 'you can't play with my toys', more 'you can't have those toys because I can't have them'.

Sodan-1 wrote:This would bother me less if 3rd party products had never been allowed at BotCon. As it is it's a bit childish: like Hasbro is the big popular kid at school who says the geeky new kid can play in his area just so he can prove what a loser he is. But the new kid isn't all that bad and the big kid's friends start to like him, so then the big kid gets jealous and kicks him out. (And before any smart arses out there suggest it no, I am not recalling a personal experience )

3rd party stuff is bought exclusively by the collectors i.e. not the main source of Hasbro's income. People from Hasbro have acknowledged the rise of 3rd party producers is because they themselves are not providing what collectors want, but that doesn't mean they give a crap. I've heard all the excuses why HasTak don't make the sort of things 3rd parties do, and granted a lot of those excuses are valid, but if they were really bothered they'd find a way of doing it anyway. This move just strikes me as petty. It's not so much 'you can't play with my toys', more 'you can't have those toys because I can't have them'.

Well said Sir, very well said.. BOTCON was almost a wash out here in Florida in 2010, I was amazed by how few people actually attended. But TF Source commanded the crowd, and you would be blind to not have noticed the hasbro guys looks on their faces. It was hilarious.. Just like you said, its like the kid who feels he's no longer the center of attention.. So the new kids have to go!

MINDVVIPE wrote:I think calling 3rd party figures unoriginal on the basis that they did not create the character it is based off is kind of ridiculous.

Ridiculous? How? These guys obviously have talent, but what, they can't come up with something on their own?

Of all the Transformers fans out there, there's not a bunch of people who couldn't create original characters, original stories, an original universe?

The amount of talent in this fandom and the 3rd party companies is there, but it's all just about basing off existing characters. That to me, is unoriginal.

But hey, that's just my opinion, don't expect you to agree with it, don't care if you do or don't actually. I just think these guys could be doing so much more and avoid attracting the attention of Hasbro.

Dead Metal wrote:So what?

3rd Party stuff was banned by Hasbro UK from Auto Assembly for the past 2 years, it was still sold by dealers.

To put the record straight from our position, Hasbro UK have never dictated anything regarding how Auto Assembly is run or what we do at the convention - while they have had a presence since 2008 and we have been in touch with them since the convention started, they have absolutely no influence over the convention or what happens there.

We introduced our own third party policy for the last couple of years as we have been trying to a) strengthen our growing relationship with Hasbro UK and b) make some sense of the blurring legality of a lot of the third party products over the last few years and we took the decision to implement a ban on direct sales of products.

We did find out after the convention that some dealers did breach this ban each year but with only a limited number of committee members it is difficult for us to police at all times and we certainly don't want to take a heavy-handed approach with anyone.

However, for the last seven months we have been assessing our policy regarding all third party products. We decided to do this because of the increasing demand amongst fandom and the rising levels of trade that our dealers were doing in them. Quite simply, we needed to address them once and for all and develop a clear policy so everyone - dealers and attendees - knew what to expect from the convention. The ban that we had in previous years was there because there were a lot of products that we felt were in direct breach of several trademarks but as the range of available toys has grown significantly, we felt that we needed to re-evaluate our stance as well.

As a result, we do have a new more fan and dealer-friendly policy in place that we are going to be releasing soon that will be a lot more flexible, while still working within the boundaries of what is and isn't a blatant copyright infringement. We've spent a lot of time working on this to get it right, working with our dealers to ensure that it's as fair as possible for everyone. There will still be some items that we won't be allowing at the convention, but we're using common sense and working with our dealers and their experience with their local trading standards officers to find common ground that works for everyone.

One argument that has been used against third party products is the lack of meeting suitable and recognised safety standards in America. This is something that certainly applies here in the UK as well. However, what we're doing with Auto Assembly is adopting age restrictions on certain toy sales which all dealers will have to comply with. As you know, all standard European and US released toys are clearly marked and will have passed recognised toy safety checks (usually with the CE mark) so these will be fine to be sold to any attendee. However, as imported Japanese toys don't have these toy safety marks (nor will any third party toys), then we will be prohibiting the sale of these to any attendee under the age of 18. We do have a system in place for dealers to easily identify whether someone is eligible to purchase a toy or not, and if dealers are found knowingly selling toys to minors, they will be asked to leave the convention so we're addressing safety concerns.

We've been doing a fair bit of research and we do have our own legal experts on the committee so that does help somewhat! We have been consulting with dealers to get this right as well who have discussed third party products with their local trading standards representatives so they know what they have been allowed to sell in the past in retail premises, so we've been doing a lot of preparation for this. Also, what we are making sure is that we have a clear list for all our dealers highlighting all of the "approved" products, our clear banned list, and then we will be working closely with everyone regarding anything that they are uncertain of so there will be no confusion over what is and isn't allowed. We have got dealers attending from all over the UK and overseas and we want to make the whole trading experience as easy and as transparent as possible for everyone.

I'm certainly not going to condone the way this has been handled but there are two key factors to all of this. There are some products that are blatantly illegal and shouldn't be allowed and I would fully support Hasbro's decision on these. In fact, we're putting some on our own prohibited list but those are ones that are in clear breach of one of Hasbro's copyright/trademarks etc. or another.

Whether this applies to a direct knock-off, the renamed movie knock-offs that came out last year, the over-sized Armada minicons or anything similar, or 99% of the toys produced by iGear which are undeniably Hasbro characters, even to the casual observer.

However, the heavy-handed approach being taken of a blanket-ban is the wrong way to go as there are a lot of toys that are perfectly legal and with the right precautions in place to make sure they are only sold to adult collectors, there's no reason why they can't be sold at any event. At Auto Assembly, we tried a more widespread approach a few years ago and to be honest, it didn't work. While there were toys that we banned because they needed to be, we ended up applying the rules to toys that we shouldn't have banned so we've had to move with the times and acknowledge that these toys have a part to play as long as we are sensible about it.

Part of the appeal of a dealers room at any convention - not just Transformers - is the ability to see a wide range of items "in the flesh" before buying them that you wouldn't be able to otherwise and have access to almost anything you want. If it becomes limited to just what you'd find at retail, then the entire dealers room will lose its appeal for most people especially - as many have already said - prices will be higher than in-store because of dealer overheads to take booths in the first place.

Burn wrote:Never understood why with all these 3rd party companies out there and all their rabid supporters who are so anti-Hasbro that they've never bothered to develop their own universe, their own characters, something that will set them completely apart from Hasbro and Transformers.

Oh wait, that would require originality, and it's so much easier to rip off an existing character that someone else owns.

I hardly think that that's the reason they do it. If they're creative enough to design new ways for vehicles or mechanical insects to turn into robots, then I doubt they'd have an issue throwing a story or two together. They "rip off" existing characters because they are the characters the Transformers fans want.