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Okay. I think it’s fairly safe to assume that not a single human being actually called Sentinel Prime a “machine” to his face during Sentinel’s brief tenure on Earth. So where did Sentinel get the notion that humans in general think that Cybertronians are nothing but extravagant weed whackers and what exactly was it that got his aft plates so toasted that he felt the need to verbalize his disgust with our supposed contempt?

There was only one bona fide reference to anti-Transformers sentiment in DOTM that I noticed and that was during the aborted interview scene with Seymour Simmons. In that one, the interviewer did make reference to a unsupportive poll and views by some that the Autobots were nothing but mercenaries. I suppose you could also interpret that the spontaneous clapping that erupted in the NASA control room when the Autobots were in fact later exiled and blasted off into space was likewise indicative of anti-Transformers sentiment. On the other hand, the clappers might have just been oblivious folks who were really, REALLY focused on their job and who were just happy over having just achieved another successful launch, so that example I’d rate as kinda iffy. But aside from that? Where? Where was the disrespect, Sentinel Prime? (Charlotte Mearing doesn't count. Poor woman was just doing her job.) Where did you go and what did you see and hear to develop such a hate-on for us?

Personally, I think Sentinel must’ve tapped into the late-night TV broadcasts and watched one nasty talk show too many. What do YOU think, though? How many people in the movieverse might genuinely hate or disapprove of Transformers in general and the Autobots’ continued presence and/or actions in particular and how might such feelings be expressed? Do the Autobots, even though USA immigrants of sorts, even have rights when it comes to the spreading of hatred against them or even simple ridicule? Has extending such never even been considered, which (sadly) would support the notion that they really are just viewed as machines and useful assets, even by the higher-ups? Or are they fair game, from anyone? From anywhere on the planet? Or do different countries regard them differently?

Bay insisted on mixing up his movieverse with the real world so feel free to make specific (and silly) references should you wish to carry this further. Me, I’m guessing that it was David Letterman’s scathing Top 10 list of reasons a robot needs facial hair that finally tipped Sentinel over into the lathering rage he displayed onscreen.

I think the bottom line was Sentinel saving Cybertron at the cost of Earth, and he viewed humans as inferior. His remarks might not even have been brought on by humans being disrespectful or disdainful towards Transformers, even if they were. He isn't destroying Earth to fight back against humans, he's doing it to save Cybertron. In the end, that line about them being "just machines" was just a small remark in the heat of battle, not really having any significant meaning.

He also mentions that they where considered gods on Cybertron, now he sees a Prime treating humans as equals. I should think that something like that gets to Sentinel.

RhA: That's a good point. I hadn't considered it.

It would certainly help explain Sentinel's rapid shift in attitude towards Optimus (besides his equally rapid descent into megalomania, I mean!). That line about Optimus 'forgetting his place' just before the two of them really went at it, for example...sheesh...like he'd already mentally reduced Optimus to the same level as us uppity humans. Makes you wonder if anything Sentinel said before he turned was sincerely meant or whether it wasn't all just carefully crafted platitudes from the very beginning.

Slightly off-topic, but I have a problem with Lennox calling the Autobots "things."

When he explains to Meering about how TF's function, he said something like, "...these things run on energon."

After fighting side-by-side and developing a relationship with them as comrades, it's really jarring to hear him call them "things."

And after Sentinel makes off with the pillars, he says, "We've got to track that thing down."

While not inappropriate given the fact that Sentinel just turned on them, it sounds unnatural. I mean, if the humans knew nothing of TF's then they'd probably call them things, like how that burly soldier in TF1 called Brawl/Devastator "that tank thing."

I would have sounded much more realistic if he'd simply said, "We've got to track that bastard/SOB down."

SKYWARPED 128: Not off-topic at all! Anti-Transformers sentiment amongst humans is what this threads about, after all.

I too noted that Lennox referred to the Autobots as ‘things’ when speaking to Mearing during that one scene and found it not so much jarring myself as just kind of sad. Sad, because I quite like Lennox as a character—I wish they’d done more with him—and because I believe that it reveals that, despite all his experience with the Autobots, he just doesn’t have the imagination and/or knowledge to overcome his subconscious human egocentricity and fully accept that intelligent beings could evolve and exist within radically different bodily designs than his own. I suspect that most humans would be like that if Cybertronians really did live amongst us…not intending to be demeaning with their word choices, perhaps, but still… It’s hard enough for many of us to accept strangers even if they’re just other people made of flesh and blood, let alone if they were people made of alien amorphous alloys.

The phrase ‘that thing’ in reference to Sentinel didn’t bug me as much since its use there seemed deliberately (and understandably) demeaning. It’s something I’ve heard applied to our own worst mass murderers and depraved thrill killers often enough—“monster”, “sub-human”, “thing”—in an attempt to divorce them from humanity, so I suppose you could argue that in a weird way Sentinel was being granted equal status with our own species’ worst at that particular moment!

Like you, though, I would have preferred hearing Sentinel referred to as “that bastard” or, better yet, “that backstabbing bastard”. And I really do wish that Lennox had said that “these people run on energon”.

Biddybot wrote: Makes you wonder if anything Sentinel said before he turned was sincerely meant or whether it wasn't all just carefully crafted platitudes from the very beginning.

It was all planned. He admitted as much right before shooting Ironhide in the back. Remember the line "...a deal had to be made...with Megatron!" Sentinel planned to come to Earth to plunder it, and then meet with Megatron here. This was confirmed by Megatron right before he blew Lincoln away. The only thing I don't understand is that if Sentinel's "escape" from Cybertron was staged so he could come to Earth, why didn't the Decepticons let him get away instead of attack and cripple the Ark? Or was it truly crippled, or just a very elaborate act to make it look like the space bridge was lost forever?

Biddybot wrote:The phrase ‘that thing’ in reference to Sentinel didn’t bug me as much since its use there seemed deliberately (and understandably) demeaning. It’s something I’ve heard applied to our own worst mass murderers and depraved thrill killers often enough—“monster”, “sub-human”, “thing”—in an attempt to divorce them from humanity, so I suppose you could argue that in a weird way Sentinel was being granted equal status with our own species’ worst at that particular moment!

I always thought he was referring to the control pillar of the space bridge, and not Sentinel. But it makes more sense that he was talking about Sentinel.

And I really do wish that Lennox had said that “these people run on energon”.

Given that he's a soldier and so are the Autobots, they're friends, I think the perfect phrase would have been "...these guys run on energon."

My view is that SP gained his Earth knowledge like everybody else and saw some things that led to people saying that the Cybertronians were just mere things. If the humans were too much hateful against him and his kind, why should he be respectful back? After all, he saw that humans hated and feared them such as like in X-Men, humans hating against the mutants. He was destroying Earth for the sake of Cybertron, but he was an ally to Megatron. And Megatron didn't like humans from what I gathered from the first movie mainly because he was a racist. He didn't like that we aged, weren't 40 feet tall, weren't made of metal but instead of flesh and bone and over the fact that we just couldn't transform. Then from the second movie, he hated us because we were just in the way while he had to blow our sun up for energon. My point is, Sp gained a hateful perspective from talking to Megatron and seeing the wrong things from gathering his knowledge instead of just trusting us and putting his hope on how useful we could be to helping him on fighting the Decepticons.

Biddybot wrote:SKYWARPED 128: Not off-topic at all! Anti-Transformers sentiment amongst humans is what this threads about, after all.

I too noted that Lennox referred to the Autobots as ‘things’ when speaking to Mearing during that one scene and found it not so much jarring myself as just kind of sad. Sad, because I quite like Lennox as a character—I wish they’d done more with him—and because I believe that it reveals that, despite all his experience with the Autobots, he just doesn’t have the imagination and/or knowledge to overcome his subconscious human egocentricity and fully accept that intelligent beings could evolve and exist within radically different bodily designs than his own. I suspect that most humans would be like that if Cybertronians really did live amongst us…not intending to be demeaning with their word choices, perhaps, but still… It’s hard enough for many of us to accept strangers even if they’re just other people made of flesh and blood, let alone if they were people made of alien amorphous alloys.

The phrase ‘that thing’ in reference to Sentinel didn’t bug me as much since its use there seemed deliberately (and understandably) demeaning. It’s something I’ve heard applied to our own worst mass murderers and depraved thrill killers often enough—“monster”, “sub-human”, “thing”—in an attempt to divorce them from humanity, so I suppose you could argue that in a weird way Sentinel was being granted equal status with our own species’ worst at that particular moment!

Like you, though, I would have preferred hearing Sentinel referred to as “that bastard” or, better yet, “that backstabbing bastard”. And I really do wish that Lennox had said that “these people run on energon”.

Yeah, come to think of it, it's pretty sad that after all they've been through, Lennox still regards them as less than equals.

That said, I do wonder if it's just a product of bad or just lazy dialogue.

As for Sentinel, you've got a good point there. It's just that the choice of the word seems awkward. IMO, words like "monster" or "thing" or even "animal" are used more by the printed media like newspapers or prose in novels to depict inhumane people. When spoken, people tend to use curse words or derogatory terms more often, such as calling the German soldiers in WWII "Nazi motherf@#kers" or "those f%#king Kr@uts."

If the humans had made a derogatory term for Cybertronians, it might be more natural to use it to refer to Sentinel that way.

Either way, calling Sentinel "thing" just doesn't sound right to the ears.

Yeah, Lennox calling SP "thing" is kind of wrong to say seeming how he has the Abots as good partners and would stand up for them. It would've been more logical to call SP "guy" or something that would place SP as a living being. Like in the first movie when that one soldier said "That tank thing is getting back up", it could've been because he didn't know it was an actual living being or just a mere robot. But I think he was with Lennox through the whole movie so he could've just been ignorant and said "tank thing" or like Skywarped said, "bad dialog". So in my opinion, it was just being lazy with the script.

As to whether Sentinel meant the things he said before his betrayal, I like to think he did mean it. Especially his bonding with Optimus during the sunset and refusing the Matrix. I think he really wanted to earn OP's respect and friendship and make him a close friend. After all, he wasn't exactly willing to kill Optimus after turning on him.

That still makes his remark of how beautiful the Earth is, a blatant lie.
If he really liked the peaceful view that reminded him of the Old Cybertron, he wouldn't be willing to strip this planet bare like they did with Cybertron. Even if it meant restoring they own world. So I take it he just didn't care for Earth's beauty and felt his race deserved a wondrous world moreso than us.

I would LIKE to think that Sentinel still felt a smidge of genuine regret when he uttered “Forgive me.” just before he opened the space bridge to the moon and when he refrained from killing Optimus during their tussle immediately afterwards. Anything past that, though… Hopeless…at least IMO. Actually, despite all my personal beefs with DOTM’s handling of its characters, I’d like to state here that I think that someone did do a real good job with Sentinel’s dialog in detailing his moral descent in general. It’s the Reader’s Digest Condensed version of a classic (and rather prosaic) slide into evil, true, but his lines were carefully enough worded that you can clearly pick out the moments when he stops thinking of himself as an Autobot and when he later fancies himself as some sort of ultimate uber-Cybertronian, the only one left who’s fit to rule everybody. So, grudging thumbs up for that, I guess. Just wanted to put that out there because I hate not liking DOTM more than I do and keep on trying to find some nuggets that please me.

ANYHOO, back on topic… Considering how many poor human bystanders must’ve been smashed, crushed, maimed, and otherwise killed and injured by assorted Transformer activities over the course of the three movies, any guess on the number of new human support groups and hate sites and lawsuits pending which are going to spring up after the end of DOTM? Seriously, there have got to be tons of grieving family members and loved ones and mangled survivors out there by now. Yes, some of it could even be somewhat justified—sorry, your husband was collateral damage incurred during some necessary fighting to protect the freedom of our planet—but there was plenty of questionable destruction going on even before the Transformers’ existence on Earth became common knowledge. Will the human survivors of such escapades and sympathetic supporters form MART chapters—Mothers Against Rampaging Transformers? Do people picket against the Autobots? Write nasty letters to their governments? Demand retribution? I mean, I love fantasizing about having Autobots running about our planet right now for real. I might not feel quite so warm and cuddly towards them if one of them accidently smushed my kid while punching out a Decepticon.

Another thing to think about and something I need help with… I know some of you fans have come up with quasi-plausible timelines linking the three movies together, so please give this a shot: IF Megatron’s and Sentinel’s scheme had gone exactly as planned, IF the Ark had gotten away cleanly and Megatron had been able to sneak off whenever and rendezvoused with Sentinel wherever it was they were planning to meet, what time era then would it have been when they arrived on Earth? This goes back to RhA’s point that Sentinel might’ve been pissed just by watching his former Autobot brothers and humans amiably interact. It makes me wonder about what level of humanity Sentinel and Megatron were originally expecting to enslave, about whether they were counting on us having evolved into nothing beyond a fearful, easily exploited, grunting tribal society and whether it mightn’t have been something of a shock to Sentinel’s senses to ‘wake up’ and discover that—gads!—humans had actually advanced far beyond expectations and developed various technologies to boot, some of them capable of harming Transformers! In short, were the slaves they needed only going to be required to move the Cybertronian equivalent of pyramid rocks or would a slave force of lesser—or greater—intellect do? This is one of those ‘what if?’ scenarios I’m not real sure of, and thinking about any sort of timelines to do with Transformers just makes my head hurt.

Biddybot wrote:ANYHOO, back on topic… Considering how many poor human bystanders must’ve been smashed, crushed, maimed, and otherwise killed and injured by assorted Transformer activities over the course of the three movies, any guess on the number of new human support groups and hate sites and lawsuits pending which are going to spring up after the end of DOTM? Seriously, there have got to be tons of grieving family members and loved ones and mangled survivors out there by now. Yes, some of it could even be somewhat justified—sorry, your husband was collateral damage incurred during some necessary fighting to protect the freedom of our planet—but there was plenty of questionable destruction going on even before the Transformers’ existence on Earth became common knowledge. Will the human survivors of such escapades and sympathetic supporters form MART chapters—Mothers Against Rampaging Transformers? Do people picket against the Autobots? Write nasty letters to their governments? Demand retribution? I mean, I love fantasizing about having Autobots running about our planet right now for real. I might not feel quite so warm and cuddly towards them if one of them accidently smushed my kid while punching out a Decepticon.

See, I'm getting various spontaneous ideas popping inside my head, thinking of the possibilities of the paths TF4's plot might take. Let's pretend that Micheal Bay won't be returning to the TF franchise, and we get another, darker, director for the fourth installment.

Things might have pretty much gone to sh!t on Earth after DOTM--as you said, many lives have been lost, and the presence of Cybertronians on Earth has brought us nothing but trouble. With hate towards TF's continually escalating, the UN might put pressure on the Autobots to bring their war with the 'Cons elsewhere, just like in ROTF, except this time they're threatening with guns in their hands. In a worst case scenario, clandestine government agencies might even launch covert attacks on both Autobots and 'Cons in order to just wipe them off the planet once and for all. Unlikely, but you never know.

And then there's vigilantes who might even try targeting random TF's to avenge the deaths of their loved ones. As DOTM has shown, a well-placed bomb on the foot and sniping the eyes is actually good enough to take down a car-sized Cybertronian before finishing them off, so it doesn't necessarily take a bombing raid to kill them.

OP would be caught between a rock and a hard place, with Autobots pressuring him to leave, and Decepticons maybe even attempting a truce to fight back against the humans, perhaps led by a charismatic, newly arrived Decepticon leader named Galvatron...

In short, I see the Autobots having to fight for survival against the very people [humans] they're trying to protect, while the Decepticons are offering an increasingly tempting truce or even armistice that might finally put to rest the eons-long feud between them. But at the cost of eradicating the humans.

Naturally, Sam and Bee would be caught in between like a "bromance" version of Romeo and Juliet. Or would they pair a different couple, since Shia said he wouldn't return?

Biddybot wrote:Another thing to think about and something I need help with… I know some of you fans have come up with quasi-plausible timelines linking the three movies together, so please give this a shot: IF Megatron’s and Sentinel’s scheme had gone exactly as planned, IF the Ark had gotten away cleanly and Megatron had been able to sneak off whenever and rendezvoused with Sentinel wherever it was they were planning to meet, what time era then would it have been when they arrived on Earth? This goes back to RhA’s point that Sentinel might’ve been pissed just by watching his former Autobot brothers and humans amiably interact. It makes me wonder about what level of humanity Sentinel and Megatron were originally expecting to enslave, about whether they were counting on us having evolved into nothing beyond a fearful, easily exploited, grunting tribal society and whether it mightn’t have been something of a shock to Sentinel’s senses to ‘wake up’ and discover that—gads!—humans had actually advanced far beyond expectations and developed various technologies to boot, some of them capable of harming Transformers! In short, were the slaves they needed only going to be required to move the Cybertronian equivalent of pyramid rocks or would a slave force of lesser—or greater—intellect do? This is one of those ‘what if?’ scenarios I’m not real sure of, and thinking about any sort of timelines to do with Transformers just makes my head hurt.

That's a very interesting point.

Personally though, I think the very basis of DOTM's plot is rather flawed. In the field of construction, size and strength are the most important aspects. Given that humans are far weaker and less durable than Cybertronians, how on Earth do they plan on using them to reconstruct Cybertron? It's like getting a bunch of trained gerbils to build your house. No matter how many of them there are, they'll never do it as fast or efficiently as larger, stronger construction workers.

Honestly, I think they should have just stuck to asking for all of Earth's resources. That would have made much more sense. Yes, having them try to enslave the human race puts more at stake in the story, but at the cost of destroying credibility.

To put more at stake, instead of enslaving human, just have them lie to the UN about only taking a reasonable amount of resource in exchange for the Autobots' exile. In truth, they'd need every ounce of the Earth's resource to rebuild Cybertron, leaving our already ailing planet dead and dry, and obviously, unfit for humans to live in.

I mean, have you seen the size of that planet relative to Earth?

All boils down to lazy/sh**y writing. Any noble autobot leader would never treat humans with such disdain. Goes against the sun harvesting rules in ROTF too. Not to be used on planets with life. Brings up a sidepoint that I'm especially annoyed with - the movies storylines are not linked. Would've been so much better that way imo.
I've heard that originally Sentinel was supposed to be Ultra Magnus, but Hasbro said no and figured Sentinel was more expendable. Glad they didn't use UM.