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cotss2012 wrote:Sorry, but they all looked the same, except for a few of the Constructicons, who looked inexcusably horrid.

I guess I'd have to go with Shockwave. The fact that he doesn't transform means that his robot mode is slightly "cleaner"-looking.

Tell that to the Fallen.

cotss2012 wrote:Sorry, but they all looked the same, except for a few of the Constructicons, who looked inexcusably horrid.

I guess I'd have to go with Shockwave. The fact that he doesn't transform means that his robot mode is slightly "cleaner"-looking.

Seriously? The only robots that are harder to tell apart are Barricade and Sideways and maybe Que, Jolt and Evac. Those never appear onscreen together though.

If you're talking about the Depecticon protoforms in RotF and DotM, I can see what you mean.

What's funny is I have a lot of trouble telling the G1 transformers apart. With most of them all the same vehicle parts go in the same place in their robot modes.

Rushie wrote:Seriously? The only robots that are harder to tell apart are Barricade and Sideways

Who the hell is Sideways? I remember a Sideswipe who had like one line and was easily distinguished by the swords on his arms...

Oh, yeah. Can I change my vote to Sideswipe?

Rushie wrote:and maybe Que, Jolt and Evac. Those never appear onscreen together though.

Who the hell is Evac?

Evil_the_Nub wrote:What's funny is I have a lot of trouble telling the G1 transformers apart. With most of them all the same vehicle parts go in the same place in their robot modes.

The G1 transformers all had different color schemes. Ironhide and Ratchet were both minivans, but one was red and the other was white, so you could always tell them apart. The Seekers were all F-15s, but you knew damn well that the red one was a whiny sycophant with a screeching voice, and there were two others, a black one and a blue one, who didn't really do anything important. Prowl and Bluestreak might have been hard to tell apart, though.

cotss2012 wrote:

Rushie wrote:Seriously? The only robots that are harder to tell apart are Barricade and Sideways

Who the hell is Sideways? I remember a Sideswipe who had like one line and was easily distinguished by the swords on his arms...

Oh, yeah. Can I change my vote to Sideswipe?

Rushie wrote:and maybe Que, Jolt and Evac. Those never appear onscreen together though.

Who the hell is Evac?

Evil_the_Nub wrote:What's funny is I have a lot of trouble telling the G1 transformers apart. With most of them all the same vehicle parts go in the same place in their robot modes.

The G1 transformers all had different color schemes. Ironhide and Ratchet were both minivans, but one was red and the other was white, so you could always tell them apart. The Seekers were all F-15s, but you knew damn well that the red one was a whiny sycophant with a screeching voice, and there were two others, a black one and a blue one, who didn't really do anything important. Prowl and Bluestreak might have been hard to tell apart, though.

I can tell which one is Megatron, and the coneheads are easy to tell apart because their wings are different. But Starscream, Thundercracker, and Skywarp are indistinguishable. The only way to tell them apart is by color, which you don't always get. I can see a black and white picture of anyone from the movies and instantly know who it is. Except maybe Barricade and Sideways.

Is that the episode where everyone took a bath in electrum, thus wiping out their color schemes? Yeah, great example

cotss2012 wrote:Is that the episode where everyone took a bath in electrum, thus wiping out their color schemes? Yeah, great example

So you can't tell them apart either? Exactly my point.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

cotss2012 wrote:Is that the episode where everyone took a bath in electrum, thus wiping out their color schemes? Yeah, great example

So you can't tell them apart either? Exactly my point.

That's because THEY WERE ALL THE SAME COLOR.

Do you really think you'd be able to tell Skidz and Mudflap apart if they were the same color?

cotss2012 wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

cotss2012 wrote:Is that the episode where everyone took a bath in electrum, thus wiping out their color schemes? Yeah, great example

So you can't tell them apart either? Exactly my point.

That's because THEY WERE ALL THE SAME COLOR.

Do you really think you'd be able to tell Skidz and Mudflap apart if they were the same color?

Yeah, because their heads, chests, feet, and arms are different. Plus Mudflap has the car doors hanging off his back and Skids does not.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:their heads, chests, feet, and arms are different.

Sure. You keep telling yourself that

cotss2012 wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:their heads, chests, feet, and arms are different.

Sure. You keep telling yourself that

See for yourself

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

cotss2012 wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:their heads, chests, feet, and arms are different.

Sure. You keep telling yourself that

See for yourself

Their designs are similar and it's intentional. They're supposed to be brothers, much like Sunstreaker and Sideswipe, who also had their similarities as vehicles.

I started this thread as a positive thing, didn't I?

Geez.

cotss2012 wrote:Who the hell is Sideways?

Who the hell is Evac?

Sideways is the black and silver Audi R8 that appears in Shanghai in RotF. He flees from Skids, Mudflap and Arcee and is then killed by Sideswipe. His robot mode only appears in a blur, but it is pretty similar to Barricade


Evac is the main dude from the Universal Studios ride. He is a shiny blue car and his head is similar to Jolt's actual movie head, though not his toy head.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:What's funny is I have a lot of trouble telling the G1 transformers apart. With most of them all the same vehicle parts go in the same place in their robot modes.

Same here. The liberal use of repaint characters, similar transformation schemes, generic robot bits used for nearly every bot, and excessive animation errors makes it all confusing.

Ya know what? I really liked Chromia and Arcee. In fact they're among my favorites from the RotF line. I even bought the 2 pack with that purplish Arcee and that awful Blazemaster repaint just so I could cut one of her wheels off and glue it on the arm to make Elita-1.

In fairness to Generation 1, a substantial number of characters - and hence their designs - were derived from toys that were either straight repaints, or minor retools, of the same mold. It is therefore not surprising that the resultant character designs share significant similarity.

Additionally, the majority of characters with similar or identical designs were assigned unique and contrasting color schemes; presumably to aid in easy identification (with the presumably intentional exception of Reflector). Some were even assigned unique designs where the character's toy equivalent did not necessarily warrant such a step (Trailbreaker and Hoist for instance, or Sideswipe and Red Alert).

So really, the only instance in which confusion truly arises in the original 1984 cartoon (outside of, say, errors in the animation) is when a character with a shared design has their color scheme obscured.

Finally, I have to wonder: precisely why are we attempting to hold a Saturday morning show from almost three decades ago to the same design standards as a recent summer blockbuster trilogy with a combined budget of almost $550 million?

Evil_the_Nub wrote:Ya know what? I really liked Chromia and Arcee. In fact they're among my favorites from the RotF line. I even bought the 2 pack with that purplish Arcee and that awful Blazemaster repaint just so I could cut one of her wheels off and glue it on the arm to make Elita-1.

I liked the bikes as well! My only issue is, (ASIDE The little bonus animation in the extras) They never really combined. That may have been hasbro's call though, seeing how no matter how much we asked, we never got that third bike sister, with her own mold and the finished combiner...

JOP wrote:Finally, I have to wonder: precisely why are we attempting to hold a Saturday morning show from almost three decades ago to the same design standards as a recent summer blockbuster trilogy with a combined budget of almost $550 million?

Because this happens to be a flaw of which G1 is as guilty as the movieverse is. I think it's nice for all the fandom to realise that G1 is not flawless and the movieverse is not garbage.

cotss2012 wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:their heads, chests, feet, and arms are different.

Sure. You keep telling yourself that

Wow... So he give you examples of there differences and this is all you can say? Oh that's right. It is all you can say because no matter what evidence is put in front of you, you've never admit that you really had no issues telling robots aparts.

And as far as your color aurgument...

Nearly every TF in the movie verse minus the clones/generic decepticons were not only different colors, but different designs as well.

Optimus- Red/blue
Bumble Bee- Black/yellow
Ironhide- Black
Ratchet- lime Green
Dino- Red
Sideswipe-Silver
Skids-Green (completely different bot design than ratchet. No way you could confuse them)
Mudflap-Orange
Sentinal Prime- Red
Wreakers- (Sorry can't remember thir names) red/blue/green

Megatron- Silver/black/gray/brown
Starscream/Silver/gray
Blackout- blue/gray
Barricade- black/white
Sideways- Gray/silver (this is one that did look simuluar to barricade, but didn't have much screen time anyhow)
Soundwave- Silver

Rushie wrote:

JOP wrote:Finally, I have to wonder: precisely why are we attempting to hold a Saturday morning show from almost three decades ago to the same design standards as a recent summer blockbuster trilogy with a combined budget of almost $550 million?

Because this happens to be a flaw of which G1 is as guilty as the movieverse is. I think it's nice for all the fandom to realise that G1 is not flawless and the movieverse is not garbage.

This right here!


To add to Rushies point, nearly every character had a different color than the other. Just as much, if not more color differential than in G1. That, and these characters all had unique designs (unlike recycled designs in G1). So if for some reason you still can't tell the difference between the movie characters, i might suggest getting some glasses. Either way, you can't complain that movie designs are hard to follow, and then say that G1 designs were much easier to follow because of colors since nearly each movie bot had had unique colors to them just as G1 did.

Rushie wrote:Because this happens to be a flaw of which G1 is as guilty as the movieverse is. I think it's nice for all the fandom to realise that G1 is not flawless and the movieverse is not garbage.

I think a quick assessment of this thread alone indicates that neither the entirety of the Transformers fandom hold the Generation 1 cartoon to be flawless; or that the movieverse is inherently garbage.

Additionally, I would point out that the debate at hand (and my chief reason for posing this question on the first place) - which version of the franchise suffers more from character design confusion - follows a false premise. Criticism of the original cartoon in no way absolves the movieverse of criticism (and that's before we even account for the questionable fairness of such a comparison). This is why I asked my question.

5150 Cruiser wrote:Just as much, if not more color differential than in G1. That, and these characters all had unique designs (unlike recycled designs in G1). So if for some reason you still can't tell the difference between the movie characters, i might suggest getting some glasses. Either way, you can't complain that movie designs are hard to follow, and then say that G1 designs were much easier to follow because of colors since nearly each movie bot had had unique colors to them just as G1 did.

I'm not sure I can agree with your assessment regarding 'color differential'; indeed, how do we determine such a thing? For instance: are we to count the number of unique colors present in a single version of the franchise? If so, the sheer number of characters present in the original cartoon, and smaller number present in the movies, would most likely sway any count in favor of the former. Perhaps we should first create a methodology for measuring color differential before we draw our conclusions?

I would also like to point out that - at least insofar as I understand these things - that much of the criticism of the movie designs relates specifically to their appearance on-screen, often in sequences containing high levels of movement and / or other visual excitement (explosions, for instance). This is an environ in which designs containing high levels of uniformly-colored detail and complexity do not, traditionally, excel. (I also believe that to a certain extent, the Generation 1 cartoon sidestepped this issue simply by virtue of its animated status.) To argue the merits of the designs outside of the context of the media in which they appear strikes me as disingenuous.

JOP wrote: Criticism of the original cartoon in no way absolves the movieverse of criticism (and that's before we even account for the questionable fairness of such a comparison). This is why I asked my question.

And your 100% right. The faults of one universe of TF doesn't merit the faults of another. BUt at the same time, one can't hold certain faults of a part of said universe, then another hold on a high pedistal for the same "faults". In this case the aurgument was the movie characters all looked the same. Problem is the same can be said in G1 in terms of design. Yes, they might have been different colors, but one can't aurgue that there designs were really that unique to each character and claim that they were ulitmatly superior to there movie counterparts. Espeacialy when there designs were unquie to each bot, as well as each idiviudal bot had there own specific color. Heack even the twins who were supposed to look alike, had key design features unquie to them. BUt that also bring me to your next point..

JOP wrote:I'm not sure I can agree with your assessment regarding 'color differential'; indeed, how do we determine such a thing? For instance: are we to count the number of unique colors present in a single version of the franchise? If so, the sheer number of characters present in the original cartoon, and smaller number present in the movies, would most likely sway any count in favor of the former. Perhaps we should first create a methodology for measuring color differential before we draw our conclusions?.

NO. I think your over thinking this. (and i don't mean this to be condencending in any way. please don't take it that way. ) Basicly i believe all thats really being said is that because G1 bots were different colors its easy to tell them apart, regardless of their designs. But the same aurgument can be used for the movie verse since they too have different colors to dishtingwish them from one another.

JOP wrote:I would also like to point out that - at least insofar as I understand these things - that much of the criticism of the movie designs relates specifically to their appearance on-screen, often in sequences containing high levels of movement and / or other visual excitement (explosions, for instance). This is an environ in which designs containing high levels of uniformly-colored detail and complexity do not, traditionally, excel. (I also believe that to a certain extent, the Generation 1 cartoon sidestepped this issue simply by virtue of its animated status.) To argue the merits of the designs outside of the context of the media in which they appear strikes me as disingenuous.

I see your point and where your going with this. But to be fair, i think Bay & Co. did a good job in trying to differentrate the bots during fighting sequences. Slowing down fight sceneces, to changing bot colors from the movie versions to the toys so they two are better dishtingwished (Baumble Bee vs. Rampage for example. Rampage was specificly made red so the audience can tell them apart better). Now granted, some scences are going to be harder to tell apart than otheres. BUt the same can be said with nearly any action movie. Personally, i've had an easier time telling apart TF in Bay's movies than many Human based war movies.

5150 Cruiser wrote:And your 100% right. The faults of one universe of TF doesn't merit the faults of another. But at the same time, one can't hold certain faults of a part of said universe, then another hold on a high pedestal for the same "faults". In this case the argument was the movie characters all looked the same. Problem is the same can be said in G1 in terms of design. Yes, they might have been different colors, but one can't argue that there designs were really that unique to each character and claim that they were ultimately superior to there movie counterparts. Especially when there designs were unique to each bot, as well as each individual bot had there own specific color. Heck even the twins who were supposed to look alike, had key design features unique to them. But that also bring me to your next point..

I agree; criticizing the movie design aesthetic for its visually confusing elements - while also arguing that the same is not true of the Generation 1 cartoon - would be to a certain extent hypocritical. (There may be a extenuating argument regarding the simplified art style of traditional hand-drawn animation versus the complexities of photo-realistic CGI, but that's a whole other discussion).

Having said this, I am of the impression (and I could well be mistaken) that no-one in this thread has taken the active, explicit position of "Movieverse design aesthetic is to be criticized, Generation 1 cartoon design aesthetic is not". Certainly, one might infer such a position from the current discussion - but this strikes me as dangerously close to tilting-at-windmills territory.

5150 Cruiser wrote:I see your point and where your going with this. But to be fair, i think Bay & Co. did a good job in trying to differentiate the bots during fighting sequences. Slowing down fight scenes, to changing bot colors from the movie versions to the toys so they two are better distinguished (Bumblebee vs. Rampage for example. Rampage was specifically made red so the audience can tell them apart better). Now granted, some scenes are going to be harder to tell apart than others. But the same can be said with nearly any action movie. Personally, I've had an easier time telling apart TF in Bay's movies than many Human based war movies.

Although I am of the opinion that some of the earlier fight scenes were visually confusing, I will happily acknowledge that this is something the filmmakers have attempted to address in a variety of ways during the progression of the trilogy - and in the event that there is a forth Transformers film, this trend will most likely continue. I will also agree that the simple introduction of primary colors does much to provide contrast between characters compared to, say, a war epic; although I would also point out that the extraordinary degree of movement, and ability to change size and shape, add a dimension of complexity often not present in a comparative human scene.

I though this would be interresting.
Here some of the Top of my head.
Optimus Prime,Jazz,Bumblebee,Roadbuster, Dino/Mirage,Sentinel
Megatron,Soundwave,Starscream,The Dreads,Blackout,Sideways,Barricade,Rampage

Wow, haven't seen this thread in a while.

If I had to pick one, it'd be Jazz. He's as close to perfect as it gets. Head sculpt looks like his G1 counterpart, his body looks agile and athletic which adds to his hipster personality.

Haha! I posted earlier in this thread but in all the discussion, never contributed to the actual topic!
That being said i have to say my favorite movie design has to be Sentinel Prime. Grreat alt mode and Robot mode!