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DreadstarCybph wrote:These days, modern toys ..like DOTM tomahawk , DOTM vortex then the GDO Springer - different heads but all shared the same body.

As stated before, they're retools, not what I was going for. More like "the original having parts of his retool while it's not supposed to".

And Auction Sites are not a reliable source for toy info, just for toys themselves. We can usually deduce what the toy's supposed to be (like that BotCon Sandstorm earlier), but that MP Lambor has too many things that are off for it to be a legit variant. Plus, we haven't heard of any additional runs aside from the 2nd which is supposed to hit the end of the year and all figures in the first run are assembled the same way.

So we're cautious on this guy, given the info we have.

btw, another reason why I'm a bit skeptical is because - Back when Soul of Chogokin Diamos was released . There was a Japan version and a HK version., There were the hologram sticker differences and slight color differences too. Some local collectors here ended up with a conclusion that the HK versions were fake and would only buy the Japanese versions. Well, both versions soon run out at regular retail prices. And soon - HK and Japan sources had the item eventually listing it as sold out. Now if the SOC Diamos was indeed a KO version, there will be still tons of it like the 20th anniversary MP Hasbro Optimus Prime. Or like Fairy Wings DOTM LC Optimus. But the supposed KO of SOC Diamos - nada. Nyet none.

as time went by, the collectors here finally cleared up the issue and accepted that there was always HK version and a Japanese version when it comes to SOC toys.

So forgive me guys if I'm kinda skeptical. No offense meant.

Just read your reply. Being cautious is a good thing.

DreadstarCybph wrote:btw, another reason why I'm a bit skeptical is because - Back when Soul of Chogokin was released in my country. There was a Japan version and a HK version., There were the hologram sticker and slight color differences. Some local collectors here ended up with a conclusion that the HK versions were fake and would only buy the Japanese versions. Well, both versions soon run out at regular retail prices. And soon - HK and Japan sources had the item eventually listed as sold out. Now if the SOC Diamos was indeed a KO version, there will be still tons of it like the 20th anniversary MP Hasbro Optimus Prime. Or like Fairy Wings DOTM LC Optimus. But the supposed KO of SOC Diamos - its nada. Nyet none.

So forgive me guys if I'm kinda skeptical. No offense meant.

Just read your reply. Being cautious is a good thing.

One thing to keep in mind: TakaraTomy and Hasbro are not Bandai. Good to have a little insight in other fanbases like the Chogokin one, but the guide for one should not be carried over into another.

you guys here heard of the hasbro.cn run of the arms micron TF prime line?

DreadstarCybph wrote:you guys here heard of the hasbro.cn run of the arms micron TF prime line?

That's only the capsule toys.

Dead Metal wrote:

DreadstarCybph wrote:you guys here heard of the hasbro.cn run of the arms micron TF prime line?

That's only the capsule toys.

And I believe that was done via another, licensed party. In fact, the Gacha Arms Micron were developed in association with T-Arts.

er....they release the regular AM TF Prime line in china. Price of the Japanese market release is now around $57 USD while this baby - the HK china market version - only at $42 USD. Different hologram stickers on the box. Hence, I'm not trying to pull somebody's leg in making out a line of reasoning that is fictitious or full of hot air.

O those. We consider those imports, not really true re-releases. Australia has done that quite a few times, with stickers providing company info. In return, Japan has imported US figures as "USA Editions". Importing figures outside of their native market is done more and more in the Eastern Hemisphere, all because Hasbro and TakaraTomy get along so well.

Now, the Optimus Prime & Gaia Unicron 2-pack, that's a real Hasbro Asia release with new packaging, and is regarded as such.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:O those. We consider those imports, not really true re-releases. Australia has done that quite a few times, with stickers providing company info. In return, Japan has imported US figures as "USA Editions". Importing figures outside of their native market is done more and more in the Eastern Hemisphere, all because Hasbro and TakaraTomy get along so well.

Now, the Optimus Prime & Gaia Unicron 2-pack, that's a real Hasbro Asia release with new packaging, and is regarded as such.

Yup, I have a Beast Machines Dinobot (the triceratops one), that's the Hasbro version just with Chinese (or Japanese? no idea, it's been a while since I took a look at it) stickers on it. Imported toy.

Then there are the "Australian releases" of MP Ultra Magnus, ROTF Buster Prime vs Jetfire etc. Directly from Takara no changes what-so ever. Still doesn't make them Australia editions.

My comic store has a couple of anime related toys with translated stickers on them, doesn't make them German editions, just imports.

Also, those imports are not made to order, they're simply ordinary stock bought from the original company, then imported after slapping the necessary stickers on the packaging. Nothing to it.

well....the way things are at taobao, its funny. A lot of the sellers there don't even know what KO means. Take this for example:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a23 ... 5950492805

you type in KO MP 12 at taobao, and you'll see lots of listing. If you check out the seller's other items (any seller), you'll be surprise they are selling legit stuff. Most likely they just don't know the engrish terminology meaning of KO in the toy collecting world. (Yah, yah - some of you guys will think if I'm for real. Its impossible for a toy seller not to know the meaning of KO. But remember, English terminology and specific acronyms have different meaning for different hobbies. Plus english is not their second language. Take for example the acronym MOC. For toy collectors - Mint on Card, however for Lego enthusiast - it "My Own Creation" . Just pointing out the possibilities. Not saying that all sellers in taobao are ignoramus when it comes to understanding the word "KO" means in the Toy collecting world.

The standard pricing of 400 chinese yuan seems to be the correct retail price. That's The price I got from my local source. The pricing of 700 Yuan is the current market price for the Japan 1st release version. The 100 to 200 yuan are pre-orders. However, I noticed others listing it at 130 to 160 range also , declaring that item is on hand - that its 2nd hand . I'm wary about those.

all in all I guess, china's rep for fake good will always mess up the legit ones one way or another. The fears of a ko mp sideswipe is logical they way those taobao sellers are listing their items. Cautious is indeed the correct approach to the news and when buying mp sideswipe. I'm not discounting I could be wrong in my assumptions regarding the existence of a KO MP Takara Sideswipe.

DreadstarCybph wrote:well....the way things are at taobao, its funny. A lot of the sellers there don't even know what KO means. Take this for example:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a23 ... 5950492805

you type in KO MP 12 at taobao, and you'll see lots of listing. If you check out the seller's other items (any seller), you'll be surprise they are selling legit stuff. Most likely they just don't know the engrish terminology meaning of KO in the toy collecting world. (Yah, yah - some of you guys will think if I'm for real. Its impossible for a toy seller not to know the meaning of KO. But remember, English terminology and specific acronyms have different meaning for different hobbies. Plus english is not their second language. Take for example the acronym MOC. For toy collectors - Mint on Card, however for Lego enthusiast - it "My Own Creation" . Just pointing out the possibilities. Not saying that all sellers in taobao are ignoramus when it comes to understanding the word "KO" means in the Toy collecting world.

The standard pricing of 400 chinese yuan seems to be the correct retail price. That's The price I got from my local source. The pricing of 700 Yuan is the current market price for the Japan 1st release version. The 100 to 200 yuan are pre-orders. However, I noticed others listing it at 130 to 160 range also , declaring that item is on hand - that its 2nd hand . I'm wary about those.

all in all I guess, china's rep for fake good will always mess up the legit ones one way or another. The fears of a ko mp sideswipe is logical they way those taobao sellers are listing their items. Cautious is indeed the correct approach to the news and when buying mp sideswipe. I'm not discounting I could be wrong in my assumptions regarding the existence of a KO MP Takara Sideswipe.

It doesn't surprise me that they don't define KO the same way we do. I think it's partly a cultural thing and part business.

I used to work at a company and analyze IC's and microchips from vendors overseas before shipping them onto clients. We were always looking out for counterfits. One batch from a Chinese company looked too new for 20 year old microchips. When we questioned the company that the sold us the chips, they nicely explained that they took new blank microchips and shaved off the tops and stamped the dates and the codes onto the top of the chips.

We got into a big argument with the Chinese sellers. We obviously were upset because they had sold us counterfit junk chips. But the Chinese company was equally angry at us. I will never forget them saying "Do you know how hard it was to copy the company logos onto the microchips? You asked for microchips coded xxxx with date xxxx and that's what we gave you. And now you refuse them? We don't understand Americans!"

They took words too literal yet they don't understand the meaning in regular conversation sense for a particular concept. In your case, they misunderstood and thought you guys want their chips and just wanted the title stamping to fit your criteria. While the guys on your side thought they understood you wanted those specs and want to see the info stamped on it. >_<' Lost in Translation moment.

I do wonder about those QC defects. Is it the workers that are taking them and selling them or is it just part of the factory's buisness?

njb902 wrote:I do wonder about those QC defects. Is it the workers that are taking them and selling them or is it just part of the factory's buisness?

Wouldn't surprise me if it was the latter, I was actually entertaining that thought for a bit.

One company's trash is another KOer's cash cow

DreadstarCybph wrote:They took words too literal yet they don't understand the meaning in regular conversation sense for a particular concept. In your case, they misunderstood and thought you guys want their chips and just wanted the title stamping to fit your criteria. While the guys on your side thought they understood you wanted those specs and want to see the info stamped on it. >_<' Lost in Translation moment.

Though they did understand that we were looking for authentic chips with specific configurations. (We had done business with them in the past and things had worked out.) But when they couldn't provided the chips that we needed for one transaction - they simply made their own so they wouldn't turn down business.

I think I pieced together the whole thing and arrived at my final conclusion in regards the suppose knock off version of MP12. Which by now, seems to the the gospel truth in majority of the forums.

Let me just share my 2 cents worth.

- items are from the same company that produce the retail version of mp12 . They can be considered as original somewhat , however - they are most likely - stolen goods or a rejected production run.

Stolen goods angle - From Factory -> assembly --> smuggled out. what should have been is that after assembly --> inventory --> warehousing --> releasing --->distribution --> retail -->end user.

Rejected production run angle - there are indications/reports over at the actoys forum that the ko mp12 have a strong odor and bad paint. The run might have been rejected for lead contaminated paint which china toy factories are famous for. Now why would the manufacturer suddenly change paint? most likely for financial reasons. Whatever the cause, the entire contaminated run was shelved and warehoused. The contracted manufacturer decided to sell them off via "back door means" to recover his loss.

regardless of any of the two angle. I buy my things on wholesale basis. let me round up a few takara boxes, very important to take notice of the numbers under bar codes at the right side of the box.:



and to let you guys know where they came from, - here's a pic of an postal declaration sheet from one my sources -:



check out the number codings on the MP12 carton box 1st release:



now check the actoys forum's guy purchase carton for the supposed ko mp12:


a ko maker would not put into consideration getting the "order" ID number coding and the batch number coding correctly. it is only logical that the alleged ko sideswipe could've only came from the contracted manufacturer.

second. take notice - there is no manual numbering in the carton numbering slot of the ko mp sideswipe. A slot that is normally filled up at warehousing for auditing inventory.

If it wasn't properly numbered for inventory, then most likely - these are either stolen

or "under the table" extra production midnight run - without the knowledge of the customer- which in this case, Takara-Tomy. Manufacturing companies often term these as factory over runs.

KO MP12 could also be from a rejected production run. - the cause of the reject could be lead paint. This would explain the color shade differences and the alleged reported odor(smell) of the ko mp sideswipe.

My conclusion - the ko mp sideswipe are from the same source that made the originals - they are either smuggled out goods or a production run reject batch due to one reason (high lead content paint?)or another. In both cases though, they should not be classified as Knock-off (which to me means -> an imitation product of an existing product) but rather illegal products (which technically - is also the classification of a knock off product. .

Thanks for the info DreadstarCybph. That's helpful.

read from another forum . poster wrote "for China Market. That's their code for a KO" .

Its like he can't conceive that TF collectors in china have legitimate TFs being retailed to them. A lot of companies are rushing to sell stuff to an over 1 billion population country. TakaraTomy/Hasbro is not immune to this lure.

Companies sometimes produce or sell items exclusively for the local market due to law requirements or special promos. For China Market means its could be legit, and for the China market only. This is just like products that were meant for Japan market only, or USA market only. "for China Market" does not mean its automatically a counterfeit item.

Yes. Original Tfs and Counterfeit KOs of TF exist in China.

DreadstarCybph wrote:read from another forum . poster wrote "for China Market. That's their code for a KO" .

Its like he can't conceive that TF collectors in china have legitimate TFs being retailed to them. A lot of companies are rushing to sell stuff to an over 1 billion population country. TakaraTomy/Hasbro is not immune to this lure.

Companies sometimes produce or sell items exclusively for the local market due to law requirements or special promos. For China Market means its could be legit, and for the China market only. This is just like products that were meant for Japan market only, or USA market only. "for China Market" does not mean its automatically a counterfeit item.

Yes. Original Tfs and Counterfeit KOs of TF exist in China.

I'm till hesitant "for China Market" is often used on auction sites to describe a KO, "China Edition" and "China Reissue/ Reproduction" are also used quite a lot.
These have become more popular since ebay started its KO crackdown, that way they can let their customers know that they're looking at a KO without the authorities taking them down imminently.
I learned all that during my time as a news-mod here and posting KO news, and well shopping around and informing myself on how to identify KOs.

This is also not the fasted it took for a KO to come out, MakeToys Battle Tanker's KO came out just a short while after the original, and Animated Voyager Prime's KO was even released months before the original was.

The Transformers that are sold on the Chinese Market are produced by Hasbro, in fact it's one of Hasbro's largest TF markets, they also get a good deal of amazing exclusives from Hasbro. Takara stuff is only imported by hard-core hobby-shops for hardcore collectors, seriously the Chinese are super obsessed with Transformers.
China is also the only country that got any of Hasbro's Lucky Draw figures 2007 Movie golden Leader Class Optimus Prime.

The part about China being so gaga over TFs is true.

Btw, is this situation similar to the time around the early 90s when several TFs (initially thought of as KOs when they were actually official releases) had a sticker pasted on the box (over the TF logo)in Chinese characters.

Back then there was a lot of Taiwan made KOs proliferating in the market. The China ones were originals would you believe? (have some of those in fact with distinguishing features as the box does not indicate its country of origin and the toy itself is embossed with Hasbro, the Takara word is covered up)


The site is closed now, Fred's collection or something, stated this in one of its articles.

Some people see this and immediately shouts its a ko because its from China. Pic is taken from Taobao. Actually, I believe some Chinese sellers at Taobao think the acronym "KO" is identified as China and not what it connotes -> a Knock Off fakery .

DreadstarCybph wrote:Some people see this and immediately shouts its a ko because its from China. Pic is taken from Taobao. Actually, I believe some Chinese sellers at Taobao think the acronym "KO" is identified as China and not what it connotes -> a Knock Off fakery .

Here's the thing, if it where an official release for China by Takara, which in itself is very unlikely, it would come in a completely different box, as in it would look more awesome, plus it would likely have some extra stuff in it like the amazon exclusive pile-drivers, and it might be painted in metallic colours like that Leader Class Movie Bumblebee was.

Trust me, this is a KO, if it where an official Chinese release we would have heard about it already and it would be the most kick-ass and hard to get version. Seriously, ROTF Prime was released with dog tags, movie tickets, something else and was packed in a hand numbered wooden box.

At the very least it would be in Hasbro packaging and not Takara.

Does it count as a KO if the factory/s that made the initial run make more of them than HasTak ordered and just sell them for their own profit? I would be willing to bet this happens a lot myself.