Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

One thing I don't get in your multiverse graph there is how any version of Exodus or WFC can logically fit with Prime. I have not read the Prime graphic novel yet, and perhaps that is the missing link, but in both WFC and Exodus, Dark Energon seems to be fairly well known to everyone, but in the first episodes of Prime, it seems to be a new discovery (it's been a little while since I've watched those first episodes, so maybe I missed something there). This has probably been discussed elsewhere, but having a wife,2 young kids, etc, and seemingly no time anymore it's hard to find the time to check the forums too often. Since continuity is the big topic here and you seem to be as well versed as anyone, I figured I'd ask. Does the graphic novel explain this or am I missing something else? I had planned to check it out anyway, but I probably would sooner if it is important.

Fearing wrote:One thing I don't get in your multiverse graph there is how any version of Exodus or WFC can logically fit with Prime. I have not read the Prime graphic novel yet, and perhaps that is the missing link, but in both WFC and Exodus, Dark Energon seems to be fairly well known to everyone, but in the first episodes of Prime, it seems to be a new discovery (it's been a little while since I've watched those first episodes, so maybe I missed something there).

This notion has been addressed, yes. That reaction to Dark Energon in the second episode was done so that viewers who had neither played the games nor read the book could be introduced to the stuff. Plus, in the third episode, Optimus and Ratchet both knew of the existence of Dark Energon, though Ratchet claimed that any source of it had become scarce.

However, millions and millions of years had passed between the time of the book/games and the time of the show. So, by then, the supply of Dark Energon could have gone dry during all that time. After all, the book did claim that its lasting effects were very brief.

Plus, the Dark Energon in the show is very different from that of the book/games. While the book pretty much had the Dark Energon needing a living host to wield it, the shows has it reanimating the dead instead. Whenever a Darkened Deceptcion would die in the book, the Dark Energon left its host corpse and would move onto another living vessel, while the show has it practically thriving on dead soldiers.

For this discrepancy, one could say that the Dark Energon in the show could be a different variant from the Dark Energon in the book/games. After all, the book dubbed Dark Energon the "Sparks of Unicron", while the shows calls it the "Blood of Unicron".

As for the Prime graphic novel, it's basically just a telling of how Cliffjumper, Arcee, and Starscream all got to Earth from Cybertron, as well as introducing us to the Vehicons and Breakdown (this means that Breakdown had been on Earth even before episode 1).

Ok, does any of these talk about the relation between Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus?

trence5 wrote:Ok, does any of these talk about the relation between Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus?

I didn't go into this because the book doesn't cover this. Nor do the WFC game, the G1 cartoon, the Beast Era cartoons, the Unicron Trilogy cartoons, or the Movie fiction. Animated does have a relationship, but it's not one that be all that interesting to mention.

Had I brought it up, this is pretty much all I could have said about it.

The relationship between Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus

• Ultra Magnus served under Optimus Prime's command as the leader of the Wreckers
• Ultra Magnus was not involved in the any of the console game's events
• Ultra Magnus served under Optimus Prime's command as the Autobot City Commander
• Ultra Magnus played no involvement in the Beast Era
• Overload (called Ultra Magnus in Japan) mostly served as a cannon combination upgrade for Optimus Prime
• The real Ultra Magnus was not involved in the events of the Unicron Trilogy cartoon, nor did he interact with Optimus Prime
• We know nothing the Movie version of Ultra Magnus, nor any relation of his to Optimus Prime
• Ultra Magnus is the Autobot Supreme Commander who gave Optimus his rank of Prime

Aside from maybe one or two points, there's not much of interest in this issue to be mentioned, and so I didn't bring it up.

It was mostly the RiD cartoon and the different comic series that go into this relationship, but I left those out since:

• The RiD cartoon didn't have enough backstory material to fit into this comparison,and
• I was going with what I'm most familiar with and omitted nearly all the comic stuff. I'm slowly trying to read them to better familiarize myself with them, but it's slow going and one user on here begged me to not add on to this since it'd be too much work for me.

One thing I would add to this that I just thought of for some odd reason, is that because of the nature of the G1 cartoon and that it manages to contradict itself fairly substantially, the fact that Exodus contradicts it, by its nature, would not rule it out of being G1 canon. By the way the G1 cartoon already works, it'd actually fit in better and just fit the run of conflicting information that the show already has. Intended somewhat jokingly, but it does make a bit of sense. Obviously from an official standpoint, it's still not part of that universe(although I do remember reading something from the author saying he tried to make it vague enough and incorporate enough into it that if you wanted to fit it into your favorite version of the Transformers, you could somewhat justify it(again not it any real official way of course)), but just having that pop into my head, I thought I'd throw that out there.

Fearing wrote:One thing I would add to this that I just thought of for some odd reason, is that because of the nature of the G1 cartoon and that it manages to contradict itself fairly substantially, the fact that Exodus contradicts it, by its nature, would not rule it out of being G1 canon. By the way the G1 cartoon already works, it'd actually fit in better and just fit the run of conflicting information that the show already has. Intended somewhat jokingly, but it does make a bit of sense. Obviously from an official standpoint, it's still not part of that universe(although I do remember reading something from the author saying he tried to make it vague enough and incorporate enough into it that if you wanted to fit it into your favorite version of the Transformers, you could somewhat justify it(again not it any real official way of course)), but just having that pop into my head, I thought I'd throw that out there.

I'll probably get crap for this but....the idea that the G1 cartoon "contradict itself fairly substantially" is a misconception.

Yes, there are some minor contradictions, but none that create a big continuity issue that can be called "substantial".

And I'm sure someone with drag out the "so called" contradiction in the Constructicons origin..........but I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Theres no real contradiction in the Constructicons origin, only a perceived one.

Certainly there are ways to explain the apparent contradiction between things like the origin of the Dinobots vs the origin of the Aerialbots on the show, but there are equally ways (if a person really wanted to make the book fit) to explain away apparent contradictions between the book and the show
(the Star Wars and Halo universes have gotten really good at coming up with complete extra stories and such to explain what otherwise would be conflicting material). But as the original poster in this topic stated he was taking everything at the basest face value of appearances without having to come up with an explaination of things(or something to that effect). In which case, without some additional material, things in the show, like Wheeljack claiming he made the Dinobots, basically contradict the fact that later when trying to make the Aerialbots, they cannot just be made, but must be granted a spark. For the purposes of this thread where everything is at face value, is where my point is made.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Fearing wrote:One thing I would add to this that I just thought of for some odd reason, is that because of the nature of the G1 cartoon and that it manages to contradict itself fairly substantially, the fact that Exodus contradicts it, by its nature, would not rule it out of being G1 canon. By the way the G1 cartoon already works, it'd actually fit in better and just fit the run of conflicting information that the show already has. Intended somewhat jokingly, but it does make a bit of sense. Obviously from an official standpoint, it's still not part of that universe(although I do remember reading something from the author saying he tried to make it vague enough and incorporate enough into it that if you wanted to fit it into your favorite version of the Transformers, you could somewhat justify it(again not it any real official way of course)), but just having that pop into my head, I thought I'd throw that out there.

I'll probably get crap for this but....the idea that the G1 cartoon "contradict itself fairly substantially" is a misconception.

Yes, there are some minor contradictions, but none that create a big continuity issue that can be called "substantial".

And I'm sure someone with drag out the "so called" contradiction in the Constructicons origin..........but I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Theres no real contradiction in the Constructicons origin, only a perceived one.

Megatron meant to say: "that the Decepticons rebuilt them in those caves" in season 1. That's my opinion on that.

Fearing wrote:But as the original poster in this topic stated he was taking everything at the basest face value of appearances without having to come up with an explaination of things(or something to that effect).

I did, however, say that I included some supplementary material such as the Animated AllSpark Almanacs and the Movie comics to accompany the information of the cartoons/movies.

And, like Sto said, the contradictions that exist within the G1 cartoon are very minimal when compared to the more blatant contradictions between the G1 cartoon and the Exodus novel. In the case of the G1 cartoon, its only a few bits and pieces that conflict with each other, whereas it's an entire history of events and entire personalities of characters in the Exodus novel that conflict with the G1 cartoon.

Fearing wrote:Certainly there are ways to explain the apparent contradiction between things like the origin of the Dinobots vs the origin of the Aerialbots on the show, but there are equally ways (if a person really wanted to make the book fit) to explain away apparent contradictions between the book and the show
(the Star Wars and Halo universes have gotten really good at coming up with complete extra stories and such to explain what otherwise would be conflicting material). But as the original poster in this topic stated he was taking everything at the basest face value of appearances without having to come up with an explaination of things(or something to that effect). In which case, without some additional material, things in the show, like Wheeljack claiming he made the Dinobots, basically contradict the fact that later when trying to make the Aerialbots, they cannot just be made, but must be granted a spark. For the purposes of this thread where everything is at face value, is where my point is made.

For the record, there isint much of a contradiction between the Dino's origin and the Aerial bots, when you examin how it was all explained.

yheres a difference between an "apparent contradiction" and an "actual contradiction".

Cyberstrike wrote:Megatron meant to say: "that the Decepticons rebuilt them in those caves" in season 1. That's my opinion on that

"built" them new bodies fits better.

Sabrblade wrote:And, like Sto said, the contradictions that exist within the G1 cartoon are very minimal when compared to the more blatant contradictions between the G1 cartoon and the Exodus novel. In the case of the G1 cartoon, its only a few bits and pieces that conflict with each other, whereas it's an entire history of events and entire personalities of characters in the Exodus novel that conflict with the G1 cartoon.

[/quote]

exactly.

I never took the Matrix Vision fully literally when it came to the COnstructicons, myself. Most of them were generic-looking blobs IIRC.

Perhaps I need it explained to me or I totally missed something(it's been a couple years since I've watched it), but in the context of the show, Wheeljack never leaves Earth when creating the Dinobots vs. them having to go to Cybertron to give the Aerialbots life and saying that's the only way a Transformer can be created.. That SEEMS like a pretty big difference. Did they explain something somewhere else in the show?

Not sure what the constructicons one is that you mentioned. Is that how they created Megatron, but were then peaceful, created Crystal City and had to be reprogrammed with the Robo Smasher to follow Megatron? If so, I suppose I've never actually heard an explanation fro that one either.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:I never took the Matrix Vision fully literally when it came to the COnstructicons, myself. Most of them were generic-looking blobs IIRC.

Which is why I worded it as, " individuals who appear to be the Constructicons." I didn't say they were, nor that they weren't, just that they looked to be them.

Though, Hauler's bio references this scene with having him be a former member of the Constructicons, as a nod to how there were eight Constructicon-looking bots in that scene.

Fearing wrote:Perhaps I need it explained to me or I totally missed something(it's been a couple years since I've watched it), but in the context of the show, Wheeljack never leaves Earth when creating the Dinobots vs. them having to go to Cybertron to give the Aerialbots life and saying that's the only way a Transformer can be created.. That SEEMS like a pretty big difference. Did they explain something somewhere else in the show?

Wheeljack didn't grant the Dinobots sparks, but instead built Memory Components to upgrade their brains and thus give them somewhat smarter and more stable artificial personalities.

If one wants to assume that they later got sparks of their own eventually, that's fine. But for what Wheeljack did to make them on Earth, sparks weren't involved.

Fearing wrote:Not sure what the constructicons one is that you mentioned. Is that how they created Megatron, but were then peaceful, created Crystal City and had to be reprogrammed with the Robo Smasher to follow Megatron? If so, I suppose I've never actually heard an explanation fro that one either.

What Sto is saying about that is that some people cite how Megatron said that the Constructicons built on Earth clashes with their backstory given later, in which they already existed on Cybertron and weren't Decepticons until Megatron got to them with the Robo-Smaher. But the line Megatron says about building them on Earth is really uttered only in passing, leaving room for one to say that they built their Earth bodies on Earth.

...though, the episode where we see them on Cybertron in the past shows them already having their Earthen altmodes (and Decepticon symbols to boot!), so this could likely be just an animation error.

Fearing wrote:Perhaps I need it explained to me or I totally missed something(it's been a couple years since I've watched it), but in the context of the show, Wheeljack never leaves Earth when creating the Dinobots vs. them having to go to Cybertron to give the Aerialbots life and saying that's the only way a Transformer can be created.. That SEEMS like a pretty big difference. Did they explain something somewhere else in the show?

Its a simple explanation.The issue is that theres a difference between what fans perceived, and what was actually said.

They never said the "only way" a Transformer can be created was by going to Vector Sigma.As a mater of fact we have at least 2 TF groups created with out VG, the Dinobots and the Technobots.

What was said, by Optimus, was that there wasnt a way for Megatron "to give his cars Cybernetic personalities like theirs on Earth.

Meaning that Megatron didnt have the ability.

Now, further in the episode they explain what Vector Sigma is and what it does.

It is a "MEGA COMPUTER", which PROGRAMED THEM WITH LIFE.

Key words being a master computer and program.

Vector Sigma programs robots with a simulated artificial life program in mass numbers.

Wheeljack and Ratchet, being extremely smart, but just not smart enough, were able to program life at a more basic primitive lever, which explains the Dinobots.

Grimlock, when given super intelligence, was smart enough to program the Technobots would full normal personalities.

Not sure what the constructicons one is that you mentioned. Is that how they created Megatron, but were then peaceful, created Crystal City and had to be reprogrammed with the Robo Smasher to follow Megatron? If so, I suppose I've never actually heard an explanation fro that one either.

There creating Megatron, [if it was the same team], and then Megatron then having to reprogram them for evil is very easy to explain.

Think about this, even DR.Frankenstein did not intend to create a monster.

Theres no reason to assume the Constructicons that built Megatron [if its the same team] intended for Megatron to be evil and re-start the war.

Yeah, that kinda makes sense. Definitely takes a lot of explaining that they wouldn't have bothered to think about when writing it, but that works.

Fearing wrote:Yeah, that kinda makes sense. Definitely takes a lot of explaining that they wouldn't have bothered to think about when writing it, but that works.

The way I see it, its doesnt take much explaining,one just needs to forget what they think they remember and re-absorb the martial.

As kids, we all perceived cretin things from the episodes that werent always really there.Kid do stuff like that.

I've noticed issues like that from every fandom.

Trek Fans thinking "Enterprise" showing ship to ship communication contradicts Spocks in tos episode "Balance of terror"

Star Wars fans thinking that Pademe's death durring child birth contradicts Leia's dialog in Return of the Jedi.

And TF fans thinking theres a contradiction between Megatrons claim to have "built" the Constucticons and their exsistings on Cybertron of the past.Or thr so called Vector Sigma contradictions.

If you divorce yourself from your nostalgic memories and feelings and what you think you remember, and re-examine the martial from a logical fresh point of view you'll see that , in many cases, there really isint a solid contradiction.

Nah, I would have never remembered the contradictions when I was a kid, I would have just went with it back then. It more comes from watching them a couple years ago. When my first kid was born and he needed to be fed every 3 hours I'd watch my old Rhino DVD's in the middle of the night and whatnot and went through the whole series that way. I think it probably came more from Megatron's statement where he technically DID say he built them on Earth (which, granted, can be taken several ways (in my own mental continuity that I use when reading certain things to make them more of interest to me, the Dinobots bodies would've been built on Earth with sparks that were stored on the ark for whatever reasons, to justify some of the cooler stories with Dinobots on Cybertron fitting in)), and just the fact that I probably never would've thought the Autobots would've made robots like the Dinobots without what essentially equals a soul. I probably never even considered that it would be a possibility. So that makes sense.

As far as Constructicons having Earth vehicle forms on Cybertron, that never really bothered me too much. Calling it an animation error is probably a disservice to some hard working animators, as it was probably intentional and more derived from a limit in the animation budgets that whoever funded the animation wouldn't put in time and money into new character designs to get the animators to work off of since even from the first episode their robot modes were basically made from parts of Earth vehicles as it was.

That explains a lot though. Even when I assumed there were some major plot holes/contradictions there, I usually overlook most of that stuff anyway with the G1 show and view it as a fableized telling of events being retold for childeren, since anything that tries to make reference to it for backstory, like the Dreamwave stuff(even though it technically is it's own universe, it definitely made reference to a fair amount of G1 cartoon stuff as happening in it's past), usually ends up with some hard to reconcile contradictions when you try to completely put the two stories together, but it's nice to see that, taken on it's own, you don't neccessarily have to do that with the show.

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:I never took the Matrix Vision fully literally when it came to the COnstructicons, myself. Most of them were generic-looking blobs IIRC.

Which is why I worded it as, " individuals who appear to be the Constructicons." I didn't say they were, nor that they weren't, just that they looked to be them.

Though, Hauler's bio references this scene with having him be a former member of the Constructicons, as a nod to how there were eight Constructicon-looking bots in that scene.

Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

thank you

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

thank you

Welcome.

What can I say? You know your stuff.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

thank you

Welcome.

What can I say? You know your stuff.

coming from you, thats a complement.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:coming from you, thats a complement.

Ah, pish posh. You (and Shadowman) have doen more continuity workings than I have.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:coming from you, thats a complement.

Ah, pish posh. You (and Shadowman) have doen more continuity workings than I have.

maybe, but your eye for detail is amazing.