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G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Discuss anything about the Transformers cartoons and comics! You can discuss anything from G1 to Cybertron as well as the comics from Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW and more!

G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Kurona » Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:55 pm

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So seeing that recent Unite Warriors comic about the Technobots celebrating Father's Day with Grimlock got me thinking.

And I made this.

Image

A few things to note.

1. Yes, I am up very late to have done this.
2. No, I am not drunk; this is sadly enough my normal.
3. This could, scaringly enough, probably go further. Though I don't have room to couple Vector Sigma with Megatron for the Stunticons.
4. This could possibly mean that Chromedome and Rewind are, in fact, not the first homosexual couple within Transformers fiction - Ratchet and Wheeljack are.
5. Please don't ask me where in the name of the pit this fits in.
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:27 pm

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I don't think there's anything that said Vector Sigma had a hand in making Unicron. Only Primacron is credited with such, and he was able to make Tornedron by himself without Vector Sigma's help.
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Kurona » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:55 am

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Sabrblade wrote:I don't think there's anything that said Vector Sigma had a hand in making Unicron. Only Primacron is credited with such, and he was able to make Tornedron by himself without Vector Sigma's help.

I could have sworn there was something to do with that multicoloured thing in the cave in Call of the Primitives being Vector Sigma in Japan and having to do with Unicron's creation...
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:30 pm

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Kurona wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:I don't think there's anything that said Vector Sigma had a hand in making Unicron. Only Primacron is credited with such, and he was able to make Tornedron by himself without Vector Sigma's help.

I could have sworn there was something to do with that multicoloured thing in the cave in Call of the Primitives being Vector Sigma in Japan and having to do with Unicron's creation...
Ah, that thing.

Yes, there was a big retcon made in 2006/2007 involving that swirly colorful thing, but only in Japan and 20 years after the fact.

The sole descriptor given to that thing within the episode was "the Primacron's assistant", while the episode's script gave it the designation of "the Oracle" (not to be confused with the similarly-named Oracle of Beast Machines that wouldn't come to exist for another 14 or so years). The Japanese version of the episode likewise didn't give the assistant a name, but the "Oracle" name from the English script did carry over into some Japanese guidebooks as well.

In both the English and Japanese versions of the episode, the Oracle was merely said to have been Primacron's assistant, whose body was shown being destroyed by the newly-created Unicron when the latter attacked both the former and Primacron. His essence (which the animators depicted as looking exactly like the Matrix with no explanation given) fled his body and ended up on the world that Grimlock and co. later met him during the episode, where he told them his story and encouraged them to fight Tornedron.

When the 2006/2007 retcon was made years later, however, said retcon set out to combine the Oracle with Vector Sigma, Primus, and the Beast Machines Oracle, all so as to turn them into a single person so as to give the Japanese G1 cartoon continuity its own incarnation of Primus, one that would fit with both the Western interpretation of the character as the "creator-god of the Transformers" and the pre-established notion of Vector Sigma having been the life-giving entity of the cartoon universe Transformers.

In this retcon, the appearance of the Oracle's essence resembling the Matrix was taken at face value, so as to say that the Matrix is the life essence of Primacron's assistant in the same vein as the Matrix being the life essence of Primus in the Western TF fiction. Because, now, apparently, Primacron's assistant is Primus, or this universe's version of him, at least.

Anyway, another component of this retcon was the scene in which Grimlock and co. all meet the Oracle in that cave on the alien planet. The retcon declared that scene to now take place in the past, with Grimlock and co. not only having just flown to that planet, but having also time traveled into the ancient past offscreen too. This was done for the purpose of declaring said planet that the Oracle resided within to be Cybertron itself in its pre-technological organic state that it was revealed to have once been like in the Beast Machines cartoon (a notion that was kept in that show's Japanese dub, Beast Wars Returns).

With this planet now being ancient pre-tech Cybertron, the retcon would further develop the Oracle in the Kiss Players Position storyline, in which he took on a much more Primus-like role (by this point in his life even calling himself "Primus") in which he'd help the Kiss Players fight against a resurrected Unicron and his Sparkbot minions in a story arc that was heavily nerdy with tons of references. Like, Primus resembled his Lucky Draw figure that was a gold-and-orange chrome redeco of G1 Rodimus Prime, Unicron looked like his unproduced G1 toy, Unicron's defeat provided an origin for how the Angolmois of Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo ended up on Earth, and the aftermath of the fight saw the creation of Brave Maximus from Car Robots. When all was said and done, Primus then transformed into a new spherical form, Vector Sigma, in which he returned to his pre-Cybertron world to sleep.

And this point is when the retcon established the Quintessons as having discovered Cybertron and turned it into a machine world, cyberforming the planet with the Key to Vector Sigma, and subjugating Vector Sigma's power to create the consumer goods and military hardware robot races. The consumer goods robots would also eventually come to acquire the original shell that held Primus's essence, calling it the Matrix of Leadership.

After all this, there was one more piece of Japanese fiction made more recently that seem to lean more into the original cartoon origin of the Transformers instead of away from it like this giant retcon did. A manga story titled "Controverse" saw Primacron put on trial by the Quintessons for his creating Tornedron and unleashing it upon the universe. During this trial, Primacron made claims of having created all machine life, including the ancestors of the Quintessons themselves. Obviously, the Quints in this arrogance disbelieved him, and even disbelieved his claim of having built Unicron, as they considered Unicron to be a force of nature, a god even, whose actions are comparable to natural disasters that Primacron couldn't possibly hold responsibility over in their eyes. But then later, Primacron seizes control of all the "primitive" animal-based Transformers in the room... including all of the Sharkticons, adding weight to his claim of being the progenitor of all mechanical life in the universe!

However, the very end of this story provided some wiggle room for the above Primus retcon. At the end of the story, Wheeljack asks Primacron directly about the nature of his race, if they are truly living beings if Primacron could just artificially create their souls. Surprisingly, Primacron chose to answer enigmatically with an analogy: "I will say I can build a fire, but I wouldn't say I created the flame." This implies that Primacron knows how to build the living machines, but that the soul (i.e. - the spark) that grants them life was not his doing. Thus, it can be inferred that it was his old assistant, the Oracle, who had the power to create sparks, rather than Primacron himself, weaving everything back into the big Oracle/Primus/Vector Sigma retcon from before.

Phew!
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Kurona » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:00 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:The Japanese G1 Continuity being the Japanese G1 Continuity

... :shock: Okie-dokie then, Takara!
Never expected my silly thread about a contrived family tree would spawn this :lol:
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby ScottyP » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:33 am

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I thought Kiss Players was considered a parallel universe to Japanese G1? That era was super confusing though. Guess they hadn't learned that you're never supposed to go full Turn-A Gundam with disconnected parts of a meta-series :lol:
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:42 am

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ScottyP wrote:I thought Kiss Players was considered a parallel universe to Japanese G1?
How so?

Honest question.

I understand that most just brush Kiss Players off as pure skeeviness, but underneath all that crudeness it did adhere to established continuity and even attempted to add to it in ways that still matter to this day (i.e. - Unite Warriors Baldigus's comic referred to Primus/Vector Sigma creating Brave Maximus, which came from the Kiss Players fiction).
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby ScottyP » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:02 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
ScottyP wrote:I thought Kiss Players was considered a parallel universe to Japanese G1?
How so?

Honest question.

I understand that most just brush Kiss Players off as pure skeeviness, but underneath all that crudeness it did adhere to established continuity and even attempted to add to it in ways that still matter to this day (i.e. - Unite Warriors Baldigus's comic referred to Primus/Vector Sigma creating Brave Maximus, which came from the Kiss Players fiction).
I was thinking about that weird disc sector looking timeline chart they did a decade ago that I hadn't looked at in a few years. Reading back on it, I was mistaken. I remembered it being off to one side and assumed it was disconnected but now going back and looking at the lines, yep, got it, was not correct earlier today.
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:25 pm

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ScottyP wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
ScottyP wrote:I thought Kiss Players was considered a parallel universe to Japanese G1?
How so?

Honest question.

I understand that most just brush Kiss Players off as pure skeeviness, but underneath all that crudeness it did adhere to established continuity and even attempted to add to it in ways that still matter to this day (i.e. - Unite Warriors Baldigus's comic referred to Primus/Vector Sigma creating Brave Maximus, which came from the Kiss Players fiction).
I was thinking about that weird disc sector looking timeline chart they did a decade ago that I hadn't looked at in a few years. Reading back on it, I was mistaken. I remembered it being off to one side and assumed it was disconnected but now going back and looking at the lines, yep, got it, was not correct earlier today.
You mean that rainbow-colored one from the old World of the Transformers website?

If so, there is one thing about that web that I find a little odd, how the Kiss Players and Kiss Players Position boxes veer off away from the rest of the cartoon timeline paths. While they do go off and do their own thing in the multiverse, the story did eventually come back to fall in line with the main cartoon timeline.

Though, that web also has RobotMasters go off on its own, and bizarrely includes Machine Wars (featured as a post-Japanese G2 box that also dead ends, no less).

My guess is whoever made that web at the time didn't know where each of those branching fictions would end up and left them open ended on the web just in case.

Whatever the reason, it's woefully outdated by now. :P
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:01 pm

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By the way, since it became relevant, here is an English fan translation of the "Controverse" manga story.

Note that the planet's name in this story is typo'd as "Mira" when it should be "Miras".
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby WreckerJack » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:13 pm

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I have heard that theory about Ratchet and Wheeljack before. I think them being dinobot dads is kinda cute. It does make me wonder how Cybetronian family structure works. Without heredity the way organic beings have Cybertronians have close relationships between teammates or coworkers that are almost family like. I think Conjunx Endura and Amica Endura play a big role there. If G1 and MTMTE are the same universe anything is possible.

Image

I am aware some of them have brother and sister relationships - Sunstreaker and Sideswipe, Stormclash and Skyburst are said to be twin sisters. IIRC this has to do with construction or something that happens where a spark makes twins. I believe that Dreadwing in Prime spoke about having a "split spark" with his twin Skyquake.

I can't think of any other sort of family relationships in Transformers lore at the present moment. Upon doing a little digging I did find some stuff here.
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Kurona » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:33 pm

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True, true - I must note that this isn't meant to be a serious dissertation or analysis of the series, it's just a fun little thing.

... buuuuuut, considering the G1 cartoon itself was silly and goofy as all heck, this kind of fits in; no?

I'm actually starting to wonder if Ratchet and Wheeljack were at some point in development meant to be seen as parents, considering original plans had Ratchet as female - but when they made Ratchet male like the rest of the cast, they toned down those implications :-?

(We desperately need a tinfoil hat icon)
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby WreckerJack » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:23 pm

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I just think its fun to think about these kind of things. I have mused with friends about what Cybertroian families are like. I like to wonder things just for the sake of wondering. I love to ask questions. (I sound like Nightbeat haha.)

I don't take "shipping" seriously either. For me its adds another layer of depth to Transformers but to focus too much on it is just too much I guess? I like cute and happy things but I came here for badass robots, guns and rescue vehicles.

The fact that Transformers have personalities and feelings makes the story so much richer than just "cool robot fights". I had seen a few of the bay flicks in the theater but never got into Transformers after seeing them. Prime had depth to the characters which made me relate to them and get attached to the series. Of course it helps that I am very hands on and love toys/things with moving parts. Transformers toys are the perfect tangible puzzle to play with.
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Kurona » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:33 pm

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WreckerJack wrote:I just think its fun to think about these kind of things. I have mused with friends about what Cybertroian families are like. I like to wonder things just for the sake of wondering. I love to ask questions. (I sound like Nightbeat haha.)

I don't take "shipping" seriously either. For me its adds another layer of depth to Transformers but to focus too much on it is just too much I guess? I like cute and happy things but I came here for badass robots, guns and rescue vehicles.

The fact that Transformers have personalities and feelings makes the story so much richer than just "cool robot fights". I had seen a few of the bay flicks in the theater but never got into Transformers after seeing them. Prime had depth to the characters which made me relate to them and get attached to the series. Of course it helps that I am very hands on and love toys/things with moving parts. Transformers toys are the perfect tangible puzzle to play with.

It's best when there's a balance; hence why TFP and Beast Wars worked fantastically. Great fights, great characters, great plot (well... TFP's plot got a bit strange as it went on, but still). Fight scenes are just so much better when there's stakes you care for and characters involved you care about. That's where the Bay films fall down - and it's not exactly like I'm asking for much from them; it's a dumb action film, that's fine and that's what I'm going in to see. You just need a basic plot and basic characters to get somewhat attached to and have some great action around them; an example I love to use are the current Marvel movies. They're not amazing by any stretch, but they're still really enjoyable and they still manage to have a lot of fantastic, unique action and fight choreography. That's why I don't like the Bay films; not because they're not some in-depth character piece (which is just silly to expect from this sort of thing), but because as action movie popcorn flicks - what they set out to be - they simply don't work well and there are countless examples of movies that do it much better.

... off-topic rant aside. My shipping's very casual; I think Megatron/Magnus and Rodimus/Drift make a lot of sense in MTMTE and would love to see those happen, but I don't devote a lot of time to thinking about them. I think they work, I think they're cute, I think it'd be great if they happened, but that's about it.

Transformers families are... certainly strange since there's never really any parental figures - even in the few cases there are like Alpha Trion to Optimus Prime, it's fatherhood in a spiritual and metaphorical sense rather than literally being born from him. Essentially every character's an orphan and some of them get a brother or sister or two but beyond that, nothing. That's part of why I'm enjoying seeing Thundercracker and Marissa in the current comics; she's talking about parental relationships to someone who doesn't even begin to understand but wants to and is fully engrossed in her planet's culture. S'pretty awesome
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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby WreckerJack » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:30 am

Motto: "The complain train is leaving the station."
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I think TFP was rushed in it's later seasons due to budget issues. S3 really suffers from this. I should re-watch it again after I finish catching up on RiD. I never expected much from the Bay films as they were my first experience with Transformers and it didn't grip me. They were enjoyable for action, cgi animation and something to do but beyond that they don't retain my attention or occupy my thoughts the way Prime and MTMTE do.

Same here.

I think a lot of characters in media don't have parents. Batman, Harry Potter, Goku, Spiderman, and Superman are some examples that come to mind but I am sure there are dozens more. This also made me think of this -

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Re: G1 Cartoon Family Tree

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:08 am

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WreckerJack wrote:I think TFP was rushed in it's later seasons due to budget issues.
That wasn't the main reason. It was because of Hasbro changing their plans for the Prime line at the 11th hour, forcing the whole Beast Hunters/Predacons thing on the cartoon staff. The show had to cram two extra seasons' worth of story into the second season to make room in the third season for the Beast Hunters saga.

Thus, a ton of plot points got either wrapped up hastily or dropped completely in the second season, as all that went down in that season was supposed to carry over into the third and a fourth season. Season 3 as we know it was originally going to be completely different, with Beast Hunters not even on the table. Namely, Thundertron and the Star Seekers were set to return (after their debut in the Exiles novel) in the third season. But that didn't pan out thanks to Beast Hunters taking priority instead.

That's also why the Season 3 finale felt a bit like a repeat of the Season 2 finale. They had to come up with some kind of diversion from ending the series proper to enable the Beast Hunters story to happen, before the show got back on track with its "revive Cybertron" ending plot that both finales focused on.

And that's also why there was only one Predacon, Predaking, in the entire 65-episode series run (Predacons Rising was an afterthought made after the series proper was all said and done). Since the Predacons were never even part of what was planned for the show longterm, the new material that the show had to force in per Hasbro's wishes led to the show only using Predaking to a proper extent in the series. The build up to more Preds coming via Shockwave's experiments that the show was doing turned out to be a fake out (which THIS was probably for budget reasons), and the whole Project: Predacon story arc turned out to only be four episodes long (with one filler episode between the third and fourth one) out of a 13-episode season.

And when you look at the season overall, those four Project: Predacon episodes are the most in-line with the "Beast Hunters" title, yet feel the most distracted from the greater ongoing narrative of the season and series overall. In the long run, it really feels like the four actual "Beast Hunters" episodes were made begrudgingly, out of obligation just to satisfy the higher ups at Hasbro. For no sooner than those four episodes were passed, the series shifted immediately back to its "revive Cybertron" plot that it had previously focused on back before it started everything with the Predacons.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #346 - Gas Station Jamboree
Twincast / Podcast #346:
"Gas Station Jamboree"
MP3 · iTunes · RSS · View · Discuss · Ask
Posted: Saturday, March 23rd, 2024

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