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Justicity wrote:

ajy101 wrote:

Tramp wrote:Not really. Radio signals require more power to transmit than simple sounds. For sounds, all you need is enough power to cause a vibration in a membrane. For radio communication, you ned to have enough power to create the radio waves, which is an exceptionally greater amount of of amperage. Therefore, it is actually more energy efficient to talk than transmit radio signals except over exceptionally long distances where vocal communication would be impossible.

You're kidding right? We're talking about 50 ton robots who can fly, and you think the power required to run a cellphone is going to be a problem? Bring me more energon cubes!!

Besides, They use energy to talk anyway, they don't have vocal chords. So considering the alternative is using a fair bit of energy to vocalize noises that can only be heard close by, a system that runs more like MSN between robot's does seem more effective. It also allows one to know what another is thinking almost instantaneously, much better in a combat situation, which it seems these guys are constantly locked in.
edit: It would also mean the speech would be directed only at those the user wants to hear. Unless using some kind of hacking device, the Decepticons wouldn't be able to overhear any of Prime's "make a special run to Autobot city" orders again.

They may not have "vocal cords" but the sound is still generated by vibrating a memberane, as in a speaker. That takes a lot less power than it takes to generate radio waves. I used to work as a Radio Operator in the Army. Radio transmission requires a lot of amperage. a lot more amperage than what it takes to power a speaker. A cell phone doesn't require as much as a militar radio because the signal is very weak, and only goes to relay a short distance away, and those relays are what really use the power. It is the relays which boost the signals and transmitt them greater distances. Secondly, radio waves are just as easy to pick up and listen in on unless they are encrypted. They aren't as good for real short distances, where voice would make more sense. And, if you don't want someone to hear what you.re saying, you can always use prearrainged hand signals. A lot of soldiers do that in the field.

that's why I think the movie was well done from a realist point of view (as best as can be done). They were some times when the Decepticons communicated via radio waves (to summon the troops for the last battle) - and that's how I would envision communication for the most part. As for vocals - they only really make sense in the context of human contact/presence in my opinion, which again I think the movie did well (as best as it could) - I like how the movie made the human presence vital and integral to their existence, which made the need for their alt forms see more logical.

You'll notice the Decepticons in the movie have less problem communicating through radio waves in their own language, since they have less of a human influence.

In other words, I think there ARE ways around the logical silliness that might arise - and when one does come up with a reasonable way around things, it makes one sit up and appreciate the brilliance of one's ideas.

The only time the Decepticons communucated via radio waves was over long distances. When Frenzy was riding in Barricade, he didn't talk via radio. He spoke to him directly. When Megatron talked to Starscream, he talked to him directly, with his voice, not over radio waves.

I bealive this is the part were Damolisher and Tramp start arguing and ruin the tread.

Whiner-tron wrote:I bealive this is the part were Damolisher and Tramp start arguing and ruin the tread.

Not as long as he doesn't start throwing insults around. I'd rather keep on topic.

Look, Tramp, mate, come on, you can't apply physics to a cartoon, dude. Keep in mind Transformers IS generally aimed at kids. They aren't gonna understand scientific things such as the things you go on about, and in any case, it's still about giant transforming robots, and that's only the start of impossiblities. Now I've said my piece, I'm out. I dont' want this to turn into another 40 page abuse cycle.

Neither do I. I'm just saying that sending radio signals requires more power than simply talking.

Yeah, in real life. It doesn't have to in Transformers, depending on the writer's preferences.

It makes more sense to because it is more realistic, thus less likely to break the suspension of disbelief.

Um, Tramp, I dont' know if you've noticed this, but A) Transformers is a franchise for kids, and B) Most of them don't know jack about science. So they don't give 2 shits one way or the other about what's scientifically possible. Seriously, it's a cartoon. It's at the disposal of the writers what they wish to do, and being it's a cartoon, it's not going to be realistic. You don't need suspension of disbelief for a cartoon, because it isnt' reality, and things such as the dead coming back ot life doesn't happen in reality either.

You need to realise, no-one's writing Transformers for adults as far as a cartoon goes, and Furman's not just writing for us either. There are more than just us as fans, Tramp. A lot of people on here need to realise that.

Very true, but by the same token, it doesn't make sense to make things more complicated and less practical simply to make things more "alien". The question was asked if communicating by radio waves would be more practical for the TransFormers, and the answer is no, because the power requirements are significantly greater to transmit a radio signal than to power a speaker. A real-world question was asked and a real-world answer was needed. And if you think about it, Even from a kid's perspective, they would expect the characters to actually talk, and certainly wouldn't understand the concept of radio waves. To most kids a radio is just something that music comes out of.

Also, even a cartoon needs to have some grounding in reality, especially something like TransFormers, which is a more serious cartoon. For silly toons you can get a way with more than with science fiction action adventure series.

Tramp wrote:Very true, but by the same token, it doesn't make sense to make things more complicated and less practical simply to make things more "alien". The question was asked if communicating by radio waves would be more practical for the TransFormers, and the answer is no, according to the boundaries imposed by human understanding of science and invention in the year 2007, because the power requirements are significantly greater to transmit a radio signal than to power a speaker. A real-world question was asked and a real-world answer was needed, based off our current limits of human understanding.

Fixed.

NO, Thenedian. Not based upon human understanding. Radio signals do require more power to be transmitted than what it takes to create simple sounds out of a speaker.

Sure, the type of radio used by modern technology works that way. I would suggest, however, that an alien civilization far, far older than ours which has progessed in science and technology to a point far beyond our comprehension may have discovered a way to make communication via what we might consider radio transmissions much easier than we would ever be able to accomplish.

Also, while it's shown that Cybertron has an atmosphere that's breathable by humans, the exact composition is unknown. As sound waves travel differently in various atmospheres, it's impossible to be able to tell what kind of distance Cybertronians communicating via a simple speaker system would actually be able to hear each other at. Add to this the seemingly huge numbers of spies available to both Autobots and Decepticons, talking openly may not be such a preferred method of communication. Encrypted point to point tight beam transmissions via infrared, or some other high technology solution, might be a better choice.

The basic problem with science fiction is that we humans have only a very limited understanding of the way things work, and it's very hard to translate that understanding to a civilization that's inherently alien, far advanced and highly technical. It's nigh impossible to postulate what would be most efficient for a such an alien race to use, as we have only our own science and technology to draw upon ( and our understanding of science is constantly being reexamined as things we considered to be truths end up being proven false ). Given these factors, and any canonical references to prove otherwise, any debate like this really can never go past the realm of "What If?" as no one can totally prove what would be true or not.

Radio is still only good for long distance. It simply is not practical for face-to-face or over very short distances. Also, radio is no more secure than voice. If you're close togehter, whispsering or simply writing out a message is more secure. Over longer distances, an encrypted radio suignal is practical, even though it requires more power. Radio waves travel much farther.Lightwave transmissions are also fine for long-range communications, but stil not really effective for real short distances. If you're face-to-face, it is just more practical to talk. On top of that, sound comes in severla frequencies, some of which travel much further than others, including infrasound. On tpp of that, radio waves are simply a carrier for a message. The information still needs to be converted to a form that can be understood. Voice communication doesn't need to be converted.

And, if you want to keep vpoice communication secret, just talk in a pre-arranged code.

the other problem with radio waves is they're more easily traced.

Tramp, Transformres is aimed at children. Show me ONE average 10 year old who knows anything about "radio Waves." Who gives a rats nenes about science? The fact it's a cartoon kinda tips your off it's not gonna be realistic, hell, everything ABOUT Transformers is scientifically impossible. And who the hell sits down and watches a program to question the scientific possibility of anything?

Why would you apply suspension of disbelief to a cartoon or comic anyway? There's nothing real about it anyway. Just because one or two buzzkilling adults feel the need to sit down and question the plausibility of every single thing, doesn't mean Transformers has to stick within the realms of anything. I mean, if people have to sit down and start crying scientific laws about shows their children are meant to be watching, don't watch, and don't buy the comics. It's that simple.

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, Transformres is aimed at children. Show me ONE average 10 year old who knows anything about "radio Waves." Who gives a rats nenes about science? The fact it's a cartoon kinda tips your off it's not gonna be realistic, hell, everything ABOUT Transformers is scientifically impossible. And who the hell sits down and watches a program to question the scientific possibility of anything?

Why would you apply suspension of disbelief to a cartoon or comic anyway? There's nothing real about it anyway. Just because one or two buzzkilling adults feel the need to sit down and question the plausibility of every single thing, doesn't mean Transformers has to stick within the realms of anything. I mean, if people have to sit down and start crying scientific laws about shows their children are meant to be watching, don't watch, and don't buy the comics. It's that simple.

Whether it is animated or not has nothing to do with it. Secondly, the transformers are not truely scientifically impossible just improbable. The only real sticking point about them is their size.

Regardless, if I choose to break the laws of science for a kids cartoon, I don't have to answer to anyone, since it'd be my work, and I'm pretty sure the writers of the cartoons don't give a rat's scrote what a 37 year old thinks, what a 19 year old thinks, what a 22 year old thinks, the only target audience they give a crap about is the age point the toys are aimed at- kids.

Actually, that isn't true. You still have to keep most laws of physics even if you break a few. Even those you break have to be done in a plausible manner to make it believable. You also have to maintain consistancy with those internal laws. Any professional writer will tell you this. You can't simply throw the book out the window and do whatever you want. Fantastic elements must be used with care and done in a way that is both plausible and consistant while keeping at least a strong semblence of reality. The more unreal the environment, the harder it will be for an audience to accept the internal reality of the story. You have to have something to ground the story in reality. Therefore, you can break some scientific rules and laws, but you cannot break all of them. Even then, there are really only certain ones that can be bent or broken "believably".

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?! Christ's sake, why the hell can you not get the point?! Tramp, here's a newsflash: No-one gives a ****. OK, LITTLE KIDS DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE LAWS OF PHYSICS! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!! Or are you so firm in forcing your ideals on everyone you watch shows along with your kids to prevent them from watching anything "Physically impossible?" I can just imagine this going down in the Tramp household:

*Tramp's son Scamp walks into the room*
Scamp: "Daddy, can I watch DragonBall Z?"
Tramp: "Hell no! You will never watch that show again! People cannot fly, that show defies the laws of physics You cannot fly without the aid of a vehicle of some sort on Earth, due to gravity! To do so is physically impossible! This argues with my laws of what a writer can and cannot do! Akira Toriyama is the devil, and he shall burn in HELL!!!!"

Serously, I've noticed an ongoing theme in any topic you debate with someone over. Regardless of how good their argument is, you never say "Yeah, I guess Im wrong, it is only a franchise for kids" or something to that effect, you go around and around in circles. If the person you're arguing with doesn't make reference to what they said the last time you replied, you use the same argument from a few arguments earlier, you argue in rotation!

Bottom line, buddy: Kids don't understand physics, writers can do whatever the hell they want, and you aren't the authority on writing (You seem to THINK you are.), and no-one involved with Transformers cares what some 37 year old with a physics fetish thinks of their product whether it's physically possible or not. And that's the Bottom line because Damolisher said so.

Damolisher, TransFormers is targeted for children ages seven though eleven, not three and four year-olds. In other words school age kids. Therefore, yes they do have some small beginning understanding of science. You give kids too little credit.

Yeah, you know, the whole bolding thing's kinda pointless. You don't need to emphasise everything in every single post. And kids 7-11, eh? Why does it say ages 5 and up on the toybox then? And even then, no-one's teaching 'em physics and biology etc then, are they? Once again, no kid sits down and cherry picks crap out and gets pissed off because they're doing something science deems impossible. Maybe they do in your house, I dunno, but ask any parent here, and they'll say the same things that I have. KIDS. DO. NOT. GIVE. A. FLYING. ****. ABOUT. SCIENCE. AND. PHYSICS. IN. THEIR. CARTOONS. Animaniacs features several talking animals, which too, is impossible, and that show was so insanely popular words don't even begin to describe it. (Parrots don't count, and neither do budgies, so don't think about using them. They only mimic.)

Animaniacs is also slap-stick comedy. IT isn't meant to be taken seriously in any way. It's meant to make you laugh. Secondly, while a kid isn't going to cherry pick a story to death to look for phyisical impossibilites. Instinctively, he will catch on that something is "not right" if too many things are too unrealistic. He doesn't need to know exactly what is wrong, or why, but he will know it's wrong and doesn't work. That is why you have to be very careful with science fiction. It is a balancing act.

No, instinctiverly, a kids ISN'T gonna pick that up. It isn't real life, i'ts a cartoon, and if a writer wants to **** with physics, he doesn't need your permission. And if that's what your kids do, I'd hate to be another kid hanging out with your bloody kids, because they'd be sucking all the fun out of the room. And I thought that movie you were using as your reference to robo-pregnancy in the Cartoons/Comics TF for Girls topic was a comedy too? Or does Animaniacs not count because it lays your argument to shame?

The movie Batteries Not Included is set in reality. It follows the laws of reality. Also, it is not slapstick. It is humor. Situational humor to be precise.The situations are funny, but also quite real. Animaniacs isn't based on reality in any way, and doesn't follow any laws. It's nothing but sight gags, pratfalls, and jokes. That is a big difference.