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I don't know if I'd say it's bunk, but I also don't know if it's different plastics. What I do know, is that there is a big difference in quality between Hasbro and Takara figures.

Almost every Takara figure I've gotten, I've had the Hasbro version first, so I can direct compare them. For example, I'll use TR Kup and Hotrod. I packaged the Hasbro versions up for mailing last night, so the are fresh on my mind. For both, the Hasbro versions have loose, floppy joints, the the plastic looks like a lesser quality (that could just be the door mixed in, I'm well aware, which is why I said looks) and they overall don't feel as solid. The Takara versions have tight joints, no flop, and the plastic looks much darker. They feel very solid in hand.

I think release plays a part as normally Takara releases them later, so has time to fix qc issues but they can come with plenty of their own...

Caelus wrote:Between these two things, I see no reason to think that a company can't reproduce the toy in exact detail by measuring the dimensions or reverse molding the parts. If that were the case, there would need to be a third level of patent, something more specific than the design patent, and that level would need to be protect in perpetuity (or for a very long time). If you know of such a thing, please share.

But as far as I can tell, reproducing the original toy and marketing it as a licensed Hastak Transformer would be quite illegal, but reproducing the original toy or engineering a similar toy (e.g., 3P figures), should be perfectly legal so long as the manufacturer doesn't market it with the copyrighted elements (e.g., the Autobot insignia or the name "Optimus Prime").

Patent is expired, yeah. You're partially right about the name and insignia, but these are trademarks and not copyrighted elements. The insignia is also a registered trademark which would have to be defended for Hasbro to keep it.

However, no one directly copies the toy because that would infringe on Hasbro's copyright. The G1 toy is their expression of the idea of Optimus Prime, and a direct copy that avoids trademark trouble would still be infringing on a copyright level in US law for more detailed reasons I'm too noob on to articulate well.

No worries though, G1 OP's copyright will be public domain in 2075 or so, at best. I could be wrong on the exact year, but I'd be 90 by then (but probably dead.)

Ironhidensh wrote:I don't know if I'd say it's bunk, but I also don't know if it's different plastics. What I do know, is that there is a big difference in quality between Hasbro and Takara figures.

That was my point exactly.
Hasbro is an American company. Takara Japanese. America will most likely always take the cheap rout to earn a buck. Japan is all about honor. That being said, Takara cares more about quality than Hasbro ever will.
The same goes for some of the knock off companies, like Weijiang. I do not own their ko upscale studio series Optimus Prime, but I do own the original. Upon watching many trusted reviewers, handle and transform the Weijiang version, it's pretty clear that the Weijiang version is superior in quality.

Takara's toys are the same toys under the paint, qc issues get fixed when they are found and since Takara release their toys after the hasbro ones they get the benefit of fixing it before release. Also there's a lot of instances where the legends figures had qc issues. Kos are bad, end of. The companies making them are not after your satisfaction, they just want your money.

Again, overall quality of the products means zilch in the legal system. Point is, companies based in China have been making products based on Hasbro's and Takara's own, without permission from either company or their licensees, end of story. Changes or "improvements" as we call them, do not matter. Worth mentioning is companies are legally obligated to pursue any company that infringes on their IP.

Hasbro's product may feel like KO's but that doesn't make them illegal as they went though the proper licensing procedures with Takara, like any reputable company did at the time. If they hadn't, well, a lot of other companies would be guilty as well for importing Japanese lines in the 70's and 80's.

Like Mattel with their Shogun Warriors line?

ZeroWolf wrote:Like Mattel with their Shogun Warriors line?

Give this guy a cookie for remembering that line.

Yes, and several more:

Tonka for Gobots, from Machine Robo by Bandai
Matchbox for Voltron, from Hyakujuuoh Golion, Kikou Kantai Dairugger XV and Kousoku Denjin Albegas, also by Bandai (note that Golion appeared in Shogun Warriors too)
Matchbox again for RoboTech, from Choujiku Yosai Macross, Choujiku Kidan Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA by Takatoku Toys, later Bandai.

The reverse also happened: Takara originally licensed G.I. Joe from Hasbro, which would later spawn Microman and from that, Diaclone

I completely forgot about matchbox with voltron

I don't think there's any doubt that hasbro licensed the Diaclone and Microchange lines (and all the other random toys that went into early G1) as Takara seem more than happy to work with Hasbro (indeed agreeing to the brand unification, which I suspect benefitted them with cutting costs... Have any Takara designers ever spoke about that? Would be interesting to see how close I am that money went away from tfs to wholly Takara owned toylines)

th3BatBott wrote::D

Ironhidensh wrote:I don't know if I'd say it's bunk, but I also don't know if it's different plastics. What I do know, is that there is a big difference in quality between Hasbro and Takara figures.

That was my point exactly.
Hasbro is an American company. Takara Japanese. America will most likely always take the cheap rout to earn a buck. Japan is all about honor. That being said, Takara cares more about quality than Hasbro ever will.

If thats true, then they have a very funny way of showing it. Takara's QC has been disastrous as of late. I know people have opinions, but lets just look at the facts.

A toy recall is the epitome of QC failure. Hasbro has not recalled a toy in as long as I can remember. Takara instead has recalled a Transformer toy last year and the Fort Max reissues had to be unsealed to make sure they included the accessories, meaning collectors received opened boxes. And did you see this hilariously sad listing on BBTS? https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ails/85025
We have never seen anything this bad from Hasbro for as long as I have been collecting.

Takara being better at QC is a myth derived by their more exotic stature among western fans, and the need to support a false superiority narrative. You should go check some reviews on amazon japan from actual japanese people buying Takara products, they whine harder about QC than anyone here.

william-james88 wrote:

th3BatBott wrote::D

Ironhidensh wrote:I don't know if I'd say it's bunk, but I also don't know if it's different plastics. What I do know, is that there is a big difference in quality between Hasbro and Takara figures.

That was my point exactly.
Hasbro is an American company. Takara Japanese. America will most likely always take the cheap rout to earn a buck. Japan is all about honor. That being said, Takara cares more about quality than Hasbro ever will.

If thats true, then they have a very funny way of showing it. Takara's QC has been disastrous as of late. I know people have opinions, but lets just look at the facts.

A toy recall is the epitome of QC failure. Hasbro has not recalled a toy in as long as I can remember. Takara instead has recalled a Transformer toy last year and the Fort Max reissues had to be unsealed to make sure they included the accessories, meaning collectors received opened boxes. And did you see this hilariously sad listing on BBTS? https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ails/85025
We have never seen anything this bad from Hasbro for as long as I have been collecting.

Takara being better at QC is a myth derived by their more exotic stature among western fans, and the need to support a false superiority narrative. You should go check some reviews on amazon japan from actual japanese people buying Takara products, they whine harder about QC than anyone here.

You can't dismiss what the guys are saying because of a couple of product recalls.

For years Takara's quality WAS vastly superior to Hasbro. It was only after the merger with Tomy that QC started to slide. But even the recent lines, which I primarily got from Japan/TT, was still better than Hasbro.

IH even gave the example of Kup and Hot Rod, and I can back him up on Hot Rod. Hasbro's Hot Rod was a flimsy flopsy turd, where as TT's had nice solid tight joints.

So up until the unification, TT definitely had the better figures, regardless of a couple of recalls.

william-james88 wrote:

th3BatBott wrote::D

Ironhidensh wrote:I don't know if I'd say it's bunk, but I also don't know if it's different plastics. What I do know, is that there is a big difference in quality between Hasbro and Takara figures.

That was my point exactly.
Hasbro is an American company. Takara Japanese. America will most likely always take the cheap rout to earn a buck. Japan is all about honor. That being said, Takara cares more about quality than Hasbro ever will.

If thats true, then they have a very funny way of showing it. Takara's QC has been disastrous as of late. I know people have opinions, but lets just look at the facts.

A toy recall is the epitome of QC failure. Hasbro has not recalled a toy in as long as I can remember. Takara instead has recalled a Transformer toy last year and the Fort Max reissues had to be unsealed to make sure they included the accessories, meaning collectors received opened boxes. And did you see this hilariously sad listing on BBTS? https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ails/85025
We have never seen anything this bad from Hasbro for as long as I have been collecting.

Takara being better at QC is a myth derived by their more exotic stature among western fans, and the need to support a false superiority narrative. You should go check some reviews on amazon japan from actual japanese people buying Takara products, they whine harder about QC than anyone here.

I guess its always different strokes for different folks, but I wouldn't call it a myth. Every Takara mainline figure I've bought has been better than the hasbro version (though to be fair, any Takara figure I've bought recently was made well over a year ago.) The exception to that is Masterpiece figures. I've found the Hasbro version of the MP's to be superior in build to Takara. That goes all the way back to MP-01. My takara one could never stand well on its own, but my hasbro version could pose like a yoga instructor. Anyway, this is a long bit off of topic at hand.




I think a lot of the arguing in this thread is do to the broad meaning that "KO" can have. Some consider anything not made by Hastak to be a KO, some only consider direct copies to be KO (I fall in that later camp). Its something this fandom will never be able to agree on, much to all our surprise.....


I'm very happy if this suit brings an end to the dirtbags passing off KO's as official product. If it ends the type of stuff that Wei Jaing does, I'll be pretty disappointed, and probably end up with another door closed on my collecting.

Ironhidensh wrote:I think a lot of the arguing in this thread is do to the broad meaning that "KO" can have. Some consider anything not made by Hastak to be a KO, some only consider direct copies to be KO (I fall in that later camp). Its something this fandom will never be able to agree on, much to all our surprise.....

Like the real definition of a retool (HINT: superficial similarities do not a retool make)

From personal definitions, a KO is a product directly based on a competitor's without the necessary licensing, with noticeable changes at times. A bootleg is a carbon copy of that particular item, and it's those Hasbro is targeting.

Burn wrote:IH even gave the example of Kup and Hot Rod, and I can back him up on Hot Rod. Hasbro's Hot Rod was a flimsy flopsy turd, where as TT's had nice solid tight joints.

About Kup, he had the same assembly issue Hasbro had. Takara did not correct it. I have both takara and hasbro products and I never noticed quality being so much better on one than the other. I really think its a case by case basis, which isnt enough to establish a rule.

william-james88 wrote:I really think its a case by case basis, which isnt enough to establish a rule.

I'd also be willing to guess that there will be observational differences with how a toy is handled. Would anyone handle a $15 toy differently than a $40 import of that same toy?