I dislike IDW's take on TF.

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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Insurgent » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:32 am

I've been saying this to my friends for a while now. With MTMTE/LL especially. It's nice that we have a big complex universe but it's become too big. Too complex. Important reveals happen based on one off lines of dialogue from years ago and I struggle to remember them. Thus, the impact is lost. Like who Anode and Lug encountered at the end of #8. It was done like some big oooooohhhhhh moment but I had no clue who it was until I looked it up on the wiki. And the name drop of Nautica's friend, the collector or whoever. I was left sat there wondering if I'm meant to recognise that name. It would be nice if the narrative was streamlined a little.


Never had that problem with TAAO.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Kurona » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:50 am

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But Agoniser in particular wasn't exactly a big reveal. It was more like a fun easter egg; a little "oh I remember when his name was mentioned! heh, fun" thing. Nothing more and you miss out on nothing important if you don't recognise it.

The same goes for a lot of things. They're just fun easter eggs and not important plot details that you need a huge intersecting flow chart to follow.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:46 am

My only problem with IDW's take on Transformers is James Roberts. He's an overhyped, self-important, mediocre writer, who can't hold a story for more than a few issues without it becoming a mess, and can't help inserting social commentary and useless, unnecessary characters (Rung and Anode & Lug) into the story. Hence the decline of MTMTE and poor quality of LL from the get-go. I don't understand why people are considering him a good writer. Maybe they don't recognize poorly written material? The artists working with him have been able to mask his shortcomings for the most part, but eventually his lack of skill came to the surface. Dying of the Light was proof of that. Since then, that side of the IDWverse has been a dumpster fire.

On the other side, we have TAAO and Optimus Prime. I thought earlier MTMTE was superior to RID, but it seems lately that has been reversed. And TAAO really could have been something, but it was a big disappointment, the story of the Combaticons anyway. Instead of delving into what it truly means to be a part of a combiner team, all we got was a weak attempt at a conspiracy story with a totally unnecessary and idiotic relationship story thrown in. And before someone throws out the homophobia card again, that wasn't my problem with it. So keep your judgmental bullsh*t to yourself.

I don't mind the relationship between Chromey and Rewind, or Cyclonus and Tailgate. But Onslaught and Blast Off? That was just vomit-inducing. Mairghread Scott should have taken a cue from Roberts on that one, because it's one of the very few things Roberts did well in MTMTE, which was bringing out a relationship subtly. Scott just threw it out there like "Here. Onslaught and Blast Off are lovers now. You're welcome." It was just repulsive. It was a total detriment to the story, which I believe led to its cancellation. Had the focus been kept on the entire team equally, we would have had a much better story to read. But all we got was a short, badly written romance novel. That's not why I read Transformers.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Kurona » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:58 am

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I really think you're coming at it from a completely wrong angle when you define Blast Off and Onslaught as a 'relationship', as I see a lot of people do -- when that is very categorically absolutely not what it is. They were not in a relationship before the book started, nor were they moving towards one -- Blast Off has unrequited romantic feelings towards his teammate, which is what Starscream manipulated and hence was the entire point of that issue. Onslaught 'requiting' Blast Off's feelings in part at the end of the issue wasn't an example of love, but of what boils down to mind control. It's possible Onslaught might have had feelings for Blast Off but we see absolutely no indication of that and what develops at the end of the issue is a result of Starscream and Airachnid's tampering.

Calling it a 'romantic novel' is about as far as the truth as you can get, especially when the 'romantic' portions only became explicit in one issue. That one issue being a story predominantly about manipulation, compromises, and someone being forced to do terrible things to one he has unrequited feelings for. I'm sorry, but unless you've got a very twisted worldview, I fail to see how this is in any way 'romance'.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:31 am

In the end, there's no distinction. Whether it's a loving relationship or a manipulative one, there was something more between them than just a superior-subordinate, and that's where the story went wrong for those characters. Starscream's part, on the other hand, was spot on. But it wasn't enough to save a convoluted and heavy handed attempt at...what? What exactly was TAAO supposed to be? Even the title was misused. You may not see it the same way as I do, but that doesn't make my worldview, as you put it, twisted. We have different ways of looking at things. That's the good thing about opinions. Every person can have one unique to him/herself. :-D
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Insurgent » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:11 am

Kurona wrote:But Agoniser in particular wasn't exactly a big reveal. It was more like a fun easter egg; a little "oh I remember when his name was mentioned! heh, fun" thing. Nothing more and you miss out on nothing important if you don't recognise it.

The same goes for a lot of things. They're just fun easter eggs and not important plot details that you need a huge intersecting flow chart to follow.



But that's the thing. They are dropped no differently to the big reveals. So afterwards, I'm left sat there puzzled over the dramatic meaning. It was the same when Tarn was revealled. I had no clue who Glitch was until I wiki'd it and then read back through the comics. I have no problem with long running stories, I like when story threads come back. My problem is, these things are dropped in a random line months and months ago. If it was dropped in something importnat, then fine. It would be memorable. But to remember every little piece of dialogue? I don't have the best of memories, and those easter eggs get dropped the same as the big stuff. So I assume it's all important stuff.


I'm just saying, for me, it would be nice to have it slimmed down a bit. I'm still enjoying it for the most part, but just not as much as others.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Kurona » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:23 am

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But that was rather the point with Glitch as well -- that he wasn't important. That your average reader would be unlikely to remember him because he was just some random member in Orion Pax's little resistance group; a small piece in a greater puzzle. The reveal of Tarn as Glitch isn't meant to evoke any emotions about someone you trusted betraying you, or an old enemy coming back, or some greater plan going on in the background. The actual meaning behind it is indeed subjective, but I feel it's meant to evoke many ideas; perhaps included in those that it doesn't matter who Tarn used to be and it only matters that as he is now he's a horrible monster that should be taken down. A rather fitting parallel to Megatron's own story in how who he used to be does matter.

Rest assured, the fact you can barely remember who Glitch is at all is absolutely intentional. It might not be your preferred sort of story which is perfectly fine, but it's a perfectly valid storytelling method to use misdirection, red herrings etc. like this.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Insurgent » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:38 am

Oh I'm not disputing the validity of the story style. I guess maybe the rest of Dying of the Light had me so engrossed in it, that just felt a bit eh? Who? But that was just one example. It happens with most things. Like the Institute. Most characters outside those on the ship. Heck, I had to have a full refresher course on who the Guiding Hand are, who the Knights were and why we were looking for them. And that's the entire point of the journey.


Like I say, I'm not knocking it from an objective viewpoint. Just my personal one. I guess it's just starting to take it's toll.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Kurona » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:14 am

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Yeah, that's fair. There's definitely flaws with MTMTE/LL, and what you bring up about the Guiding Hand could easily be considered one of them.
I think the big fundamental flaw though is something I only just realised with the recent preview for LL #9 -- aside from one or two exceptions like Swearth and Little Victories, most of the stories are written as individual ones split up into little chunks. MTMTE/LL is really best read in one go; when you're reading one issue after another like chapters in a book. Reading them as individual issues and having to wait a month for the next one slows it down considerably and something feels a bit off. Like if you were watching a 20-minute TV show episode but it was split into four 5-minute episodes you had to tune into each week. Scotty's said it before and, in what is quickly becoming a thing for me, I'm going to echo him -- this comic series is really best read as trades.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Black Hat » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:33 pm

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NOTE: I have not read IDW at all and most of my knowledge of it comes from the wiki or my friend who does read the comics. I fully accept my opinion on it therefore may be uninformed.

Regarding the gay relationships, I don't mind them...or at least I wouldn't if they didn't put them in at any opportunity they can. There's like, 1 or 2 normal relationships in IDW and countless gay ones. It kinda feels...overdone somehow. Like, it seems less like inclusion and more like virtue signalling at this point. We get it, IDW. You like gay people. You don't have to beat us over the head with it. I mean, I have nothing against gay people (though I don't think homosexuality should necessarily be normalized for a whole raft of reasons I won't go into here) but I think at this point it's getting a bit gratuitous.

As far as IDW itself goes, there's elements that make me want to get into it, but there's a lot that puts me off. The sheer amount of retconning that's gone on makes me think they honestly should have just rebooted the comic completely after TDoOP rather than trying to justify the older stuff's existence whilst simulatenously rendering most of it irrelevant. Wiping the slate clean could have allowed for female Transformers being established as "normal" to begin with, for example- regardless of your opinion on Arcee's IDW origin, I kinda feel like it should have been either respected or completely thrown away. This halfway compromise just makes the whole thing far more awkward than it should have been. There's also elements of the general storytelling that get on my wick, such as how anticlimatic the final confrontation with the DJD was (Killing off the DJD in 4 panels with black mist is laaaaaaame) and the overabundance of table-flipping. Also, Anode- again, I haven't read IDW but my friend who does legit hates Anode, and given he doesn't hate ANY TF characters and generally loves MTMTE/LL, that does not give me a good feeling about her.

On the subject of "SJW Pandering" whilst the phrase is definitely overused (I wouldn't call Chromedome/Rewind SJW pandering) it does exist, including in Transformers, and it is definitely a bad thing. I'm not going to elabourate on why because I don't want to cause a massive slagstorm over nothing, but safe to say actual, genuine SJWs (For example, the kinds of people who bullied that poor artist girl to the point of near-suicide for drawing Steven Universe characters "wrong") are awful, awful people and do not belong in any fandom.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Sunstar » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:37 pm

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BattleConvoy wrote:I have more of a problem with the stories being too hard to follow than relationships.
Admittedly when relationships are done in IDW, they are done very well, and don't dominate a story.


I find this more with the crossover stories. Really hard to find the whole story and its left somewhat ambiguous at times.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Kurona » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:40 pm

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Crossovers are a consistent problem across IDW. Dark Cybertron, Combiner Wars, Revolution... not to mention Infestation and New Avengers vs. Transformers, bleh.

Thankfully Shining Armour is looking decent, First Strike seems... somewhat better than expected, and Revolutionaries is still awesome. Titans Return I feel was also fairly good.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Va'al » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:52 pm

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Quick note to Black Hat: if majority of cast/population is of the same gender, then majority of relationships will be same-gender relationships.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Insurgent » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:00 pm

I really liked infestation. Which us why heart of darkness was such a let down. Among oher things. The first one anyway. Haven't read the mars attacks one. And titan returns. Though yes, the rest of them are a mess.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Daniel Adkins » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:07 pm

Black Hat wrote:Regarding the gay relationships, I don't mind them...or at least I wouldn't if they didn't put them in at any opportunity they can. There's like, 1 or 2 normal relationships in IDW and countless gay ones. It kinda feels...overdone somehow.

If you ask me, straight relationships are overdone everywhere else.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Black Hat » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:16 pm

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Daniel Adkins wrote:
Black Hat wrote:Regarding the gay relationships, I don't mind them...or at least I wouldn't if they didn't put them in at any opportunity they can. There's like, 1 or 2 normal relationships in IDW and countless gay ones. It kinda feels...overdone somehow.

If you ask me, straight relationships are overdone everywhere else.

You can have that opinion, and that's fine, but straight relationships are (and should be, for simple logistical reasons if nothing else) the norm. That's not to say that gay relationships are some kind of terrible thing that should be avoided at all costs- far from it- but it does mean that an excess of them will potentially put people off, for a whole variety of reasons (not least of all, some people just don't find that stuff appealing, which is fair enough). Obviously it does get complicated with the whole "the race is predominantly male" thing as Va'al mentioned, but again, I'd say that's yet another mark against IDW with its attempts at turning a comic where the TFs are genderless and romance isn't really a thing into one where there's distinct genders and romance is everywhere, and another reason why it should have had a hard reboot.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Sunstar » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:23 pm

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Va'al wrote:Quick note to Black Hat: if majority of cast/population is of the same gender, then majority of relationships will be same-gender relationships.


I was actually going to mention that myself. Cybertronians are vastly "male" dominant, so the choices would be more toward whoever you liked the best.

I keep thinking something Starscream and windblade may crop up. I think he owes her his life x2 (including the thing going on in the head) although its probably cancelled out because he helped her in the head as well.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Kurona » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:15 pm

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I don't really feel there need to be straight relationships nor are they more 'normal' than others. If the relationship works, it works, no matter the gender of those in the relationship.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby WreckerJack » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:49 pm

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Same sex relationships are normal relationships. So are straight relationships. I don't see why a relationship between two consenting adults is a big deal either way. Live and let live.

If anything Transformers are a sentient race. They can get dizzy, they can feel feelings and even die. So one would assume that love is natural for them too. Also since Transformers are forged and constructed they don't have family structures like humans do. It makes sense that they would want a mate to keep them company for the millions of years they are alive.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Black Hat » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:53 am

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In Transformer society I suppose there is an argument to be made that given they don't reproduce that way, that any relationship is pretty much "normal". In human society though (which is what any fictional society will inevitably be compared to) gay relationships aren't "normal" by simple virtue of the fact they are at the end of the day just less common than straight ones. Doesn't make them a bad thing at all, but they are not the norm. Even in the most tolerant society they're still unusual, just by numerics.

Now to be fair, again, they are robots that don't reproduce sexually and so the main driving reason for a "standard" relationship goes out the window. But then you'd expect an equal divide between straight and gay relationships, which isn't the case (and once again brings us back to the whole "IDW should have had a hard reboot" thing).

TLDR: My biggest problem with IDW is that they didn't just hard-reboot it instead of the "soft" reboot we got, which lead to continuity snarls and a weird shift in tone/story direction.

Now, for the record, if I were doing a Transformers comic/prose story or whatever I'd have a fairly equal mix of straight to gay relationships along with a balanced ratio of males to females, but then I don't think romance would be a hugely important element of the plot anyway. Not to say it wouldn't be there (because who doesn't like a good romance?) but it would still take a back seat to the actual plot.
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Re: I dislike IDW's take on TF.

Postby Sunstar » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:38 pm

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The Cybertronian society is predominantly male. With females basically coming in from caminus (which seems predominantly female) or the occasional gender switcheroo - ergo - "gay" relationships in the transformers universe maybe more the norm than "straight" relationships. In fact Straight relationships on cybertron could be male and male where gay could be female and male.

In my fanfictions, there would be a mix of both, just not the predominant aspect of the story.
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