Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Evil_the_Nub wrote:Jetfire did say the Fallen was stronger than all the other Primes. Even though they managed to get the Matrix away from him I don't think they could have beaten him. So they sacrificed themselves to hide the Matrix from him.

That on paper anyway is the general idea. I think ultimately what it boils down to is they didn't have the time to film the logical outcome: an epic battle between a powered up Prime and the Fallen that gave the Fallen the credit he deserved.

Why didn't they? You can mostly blame the executives who decided to go ahead with filming using only a 14 page unfinished script farted out in a weekend by two no-talent hacks who Bay had to pay out of pocket just to stay for that weekend. When the men up top said "filming is finished in <insert number> days, then we want the film edited and done" you do what they say. Bay does not have the level of creative control a lot of our local forumites like to think. Of course they would think he does since he's an easy target, not the faceless Hasbro and Paramount executives.

SlyTF1 wrote:In he movie, it's still damn in DC.

Wrong. In the movie, the Air and Space museum literally moves from DC to the middle of a desert. There are even some exterior shots immediately prior to the characters entering the museum, and they depict the museum in a distinctly non-desert-looking location.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:That's a setting issue, not a plot issue.
From Wikipedia:
[i]A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events

I'm pretty sure that teleporting the Smithsonian from Washington DC to the middle of a desert constitutes an "illogical or impossible event"

Capt.Failure wrote:Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).

You forgot:

4. In TF '07, the Autobot-Decepticon war was started by Megatron. In RotF, it was started by the Fallen.

5. In TF '07, the war was fought over the Allspark. In RotF, the war was fought over the sun-blower-upper-machine.

6. The entire plot thread with Alice, which made no sense and went nowhere.

7. How did BB know that Sam was at the party?

8. How did Optimus know that Megatron was about to kill Sam in that warehouse?

9. At what point does Sam's head stop being full of crazy, and why?

blah blah blah...

Delta Magnus wrote:The G1 cartoon had TONNES more plot holes and animation errors than all 3 live-action films combined.

That's no excuse. You can't hold a half-hour toy commercial to the same standards as a $200 million summer blockbuster. However, I'm willing to bet that the first season actually had fewer plot holes per hour than RotF did.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?

They don't actually say it. However, it turns out that there's an "airplane graveyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base near Tucson, Arizona, and that's apparently where the museum teleported to.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?

Because this is the live-action movie forum. We go elsewhere to complain about Energon.

cotss2012 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).

You forgot:

4. In TF '07, the Autobot-Decepticon war was started by Megatron. In RotF, it was started by the Fallen.

5. In TF '07, the war was fought over the Allspark. In RotF, the war was fought over the sun-blower-upper-machine.

Different incidents. The conflict the Fallen started was with the other Primes. Megatron started the war between the Autobots and Decepticons. Although the Fallen did have a power behind the scenes role in that.

6. The entire plot thread with Alice, which made no sense and went nowhere.

She was trying to capture Sam(or at least his brain) without drawing too much attention.

7. How did BB know that Sam was at the party?

He knew what college he went to. When he got there he would have noticed that huge party and probably thought that would be a good place to start looking.

8. How did Optimus know that Megatron was about to kill Sam in that warehouse?

A giant helicopter snatching a car off the road would draw a lot of attention. Trace a few 911 calls and that would lead them right to it.

9. At what point does Sam's head stop being full of crazy, and why?

This is all speculation, but I think the Allspark went into the Matrix when Sam found it. That would explain why it was leading him there, it needed a new vessel.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?

cotss2012 wrote:They don't actually say it. However, it turns out that there's an "airplane graveyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base near Tucson, Arizona, and that's apparently where the museum teleported to.

Just because it was filmed there doesn't mean that's where it took place. By that logic the Lord of the Rings took place in New Zealand and all of Star Wars happened on Earth. It's a fictional world where there are a few geographical differences to the one we live in.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?

Because this is the live-action movie forum. We go elsewhere to complain about Energon.

Or you could talk about thing you do like. I hated the movie Cloverfield with the intensity of 1000 suns, but instead of spending my time on Cloverfield forums I spend it here talking about Transformer which I do like.

cotss2012 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:In he movie, it's still damn in DC.

Wrong. In the movie, the Air and Space museum literally moves from DC to the middle of a desert. There are even some exterior shots immediately prior to the characters entering the museum, and they depict the museum in a distinctly non-desert-looking location.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:That's a setting issue, not a plot issue.
From Wikipedia:
[i]A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events

I'm pretty sure that teleporting the Smithsonian from Washington DC to the middle of a desert constitutes an "illogical or impossible event"

Capt.Failure wrote:Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).

You forgot:

4. In TF '07, the Autobot-Decepticon war was started by Megatron. In RotF, it was started by the Fallen.

5. In TF '07, the war was fought over the Allspark. In RotF, the war was fought over the sun-blower-upper-machine.

6. The entire plot thread with Alice, which made no sense and went nowhere.

7. How did BB know that Sam was at the party?

8. How did Optimus know that Megatron was about to kill Sam in that warehouse?

9. At what point does Sam's head stop being full of crazy, and why?

blah blah blah...

Delta Magnus wrote:The G1 cartoon had TONNES more plot holes and animation errors than all 3 live-action films combined.

That's no excuse. You can't hold a half-hour toy commercial to the same standards as a $200 million summer blockbuster. However, I'm willing to bet that the first season actually had fewer plot holes per hour than RotF did.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?

They don't actually say it. However, it turns out that there's an "airplane graveyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base near Tucson, Arizona, and that's apparently where the museum teleported to.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?

Because this is the live-action movie forum. We go elsewhere to complain about Energon.

All of those things can be answered by paying attention to the movie.

My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

Delta Magnus wrote:My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

I agree with you, I hate when people act like something is bad just because it's not the original. I think that's one of the major reasons the Star Wars prequels are so hated.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

I agree with you, I hate when people act like something is bad just because it's not the original. I think that's one of the major reasons the Star Wars prequels are so hated.

This. I can understand why people didn't like episode 1 because it was pretty much nothing but boringness until the last 10 minutes, but the fact that people whine about episodes 2 and 3 being "horrible" just makes me think that everyone is stuck in the past and incapable of moving on with their lives.

Same with the TF movies. I understand how people could have been upset about the first one, which didn't have many TF characters and was basically about a bunch of random humans no one cared about trying to find out what's going on, but they really improved upon that in ROTF and DOTM and I really don't understand why people complain about those.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

I agree with you, I hate when people act like something is bad just because it's not the original. I think that's one of the major reasons the Star Wars prequels are so hated.

This. I can understand why people didn't like episode 1 because it was pretty much nothing but boringness until the last 10 minutes, but the fact that people whine about episodes 2 and 3 being "horrible" just makes me think that everyone is stuck in the past and incapable of moving on with their lives.

Same with the TF movies. I understand how people could have been upset about the first one, which didn't have many TF characters and was basically about a bunch of random humans no one cared about trying to find out what's going on, but they really improved upon that in ROTF and DOTM and I really don't understand why people complain about those.

Because people liked it anyway. Nothing angers forever alone fans than when something they don't like based on the thing they've wrapped their life around is enjoyed despite their opinions.

Just rewatched DOTM. A few things came to mind...

1) If you teleport Cybertron that close to Earth, gravity will cause the two planets to crash into each other. How is that beneficial to anyone?

2) Megatron is discovered in 1897. Sector 7 is later established in the early 20th century to study Megatron and the Allspark, and to keep their existence a secret. Then the Russians and the Americans discover the crashed Autobot ship on the moon in 1961. When investigating the crash site, that guy at NASA says "We're not alone are we, Neil?" to which Neil replies, "No, we're not alone." If the Americans knew about aliens since 1897, then why are they so surprised to find another alien ship? Were those two not informed about NBE-1? Charlotte Mearing does say in the movie that knowledge of the moon crash was on a need to know basis and that it had the topmost security clearance...but I still don't get why people at Sector 7 would be kept in the dark about the crashed Autobot ship, and I don't see why people at NASA would be kept in the dark about the cube and NBE-1.

3) I know this argument has been around for a while, but I still don't like the way Optimus just executes Sentinel at the end. At this point the space bridge, Cybertron, Megatron, and most of the Decepticon army have all been destroyed. Sentinel is no longer a threat. Optimus pretty much just kills him out of spite, which doesn't seem like a very heroic thing to do, if you ask me.

I'm a bit more perplexed as to how transporting a planet closer makes it any easier to move 6-7 billion slaves there. Or how letting your Decepticon minions freely kill any and all slaves that they'd like is beneficial to the greater goal.

Noideaforaname wrote:I'm a bit more perplexed as to how transporting a planet closer makes it any easier to move 6-7 billion slaves there. Or how letting your Decepticon minions freely kill any and all slaves that they'd like is beneficial to the greater goal.

The citizens, the planet, all made of metal. They/it can withstand the torture of the space bridge. Humans cannot. Remember, Dylan died when he touched the control pillar, more specifically, it's energy.

Plus, killing one city full of people, is not all slaves.

If we pretend for a moment that gravity would not cause Earth to crash into Cybertron, then the Decepticons will still need to fly humans from Earth to Cybertron using spaceships. So it seems simpler to conquer Earth, enslave the population, and then open a space bridge whenever you need to transport a ship from Earth to Cybertron and vice versa.

Charlotte Mearing does say in the movie that knowledge of the moon crash was on a need to know basis and that it had the topmost security clearance...but I still don't get why people at Sector 7 would be kept in the dark about the crashed Autobot ship, and I don't see why people at NASA would be kept in the dark about the cube and NBE-1.

Sector Seven did indeed keep everything a secret, even to NASA. When NASA discovered the Ark, there wasn't much Sector Seven could do but co-operate and make sure they stayed on top of things. So S7 worked with them in order to keep the secret from spreading further. It was still unknown to NASA though that one alien and an artifact had already landed on Earth.

I know this argument has been around for a while, but I still don't like the way Optimus just executes Sentinel at the end. At this point the space bridge, Cybertron, Megatron, and most of the Decepticon army have all been destroyed. Sentinel is no longer a threat. Optimus pretty much just kills him out of spite, which doesn't seem like a very heroic thing to do, if you ask me.

"You always were the bravest of us, but you could never make the hard decisions" is a key quote here. Sentinel has proven himself to be untrustworthy and willing to sell out his own troops. Optimus knew he needed to end this treath forever, just as he finally decided to kill Megatron once and for all. Sure, they could've taken Sentinel and put him on trial, but the odds are Decepticons would bust him out and start over. Better to destroy all the leaders while you're at it.

I'm a bit more perplexed as to how transporting a planet closer makes it any easier to move 6-7 billion slaves there. Or how letting your Decepticon minions freely kill any and all slaves that they'd like is beneficial to the greater goal.

I have a feeling there was more to this originally than in the final film. It seems like a planet that big would have need of ALL resources found on earth. It's easily over four times Earth's size and I visualize it could have consumed our planet Unicron-style in order to gather building material.

Rushie wrote:I have a feeling there was more to this originally than in the final film. It seems like a planet that big would have need of ALL resources found on earth. It's easily over four times Earth's size and I visualize it could have consumed our planet Unicron-style in order to gather building material.

I always assumed they were going to render Earth down into energy to fuel their planetary repair equipment. But that's just me.

Well I enjoy the movie and think it's probluy the best of the three. One mans crap is another mans cake.

I see the movies as I do the G1 series. entertainment. ROTF has it probs, but so do the other movies.
I mean the movies have their probs but nitpicking everything just ruins their enjoyment.
for instance, with the addition of Soundwave and Gould's relationship, where in the world was Soundwave in TF1 and why wasn't Laserbeak or Ravage utilized.
Transformers are suppose to be "robot in disguise", though Starscream obtains Cybertronian tattoos in the sequels, which sets the F22 mode apart from the other F22's.
The humans, (Simmons aside), were more concerned with the Autobots and Decepticons ruining their personal problems than being ecstatic about seeing a new race.
Frenzy belonged to Soundwave.
Sentinel Prime has his Panther mode on the Moon.
Shockwave has a few scenes as a drone, not the tactical evil Field Commander of Ground Zero:Chicago he could have been.
I have my probs with the movies but I also have enjoyment with them as well. ROTF has it's probs but it's my second fave after TF1 (which if Blackout was Soundwave, could have been the perfect stand alone movie).

[quote="Flakmaster"

I am just sickened that this is a film that was indirectly marketed to children. Meh, that's what I get for living in a Capitalist society where no one has any taste or moral compass.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. It is sickening. Just goes to show how far our society has fallen even since I as a 26 yr old was a kid.

One interesting note is that Cybertron was only a third through the bridge when it collapsed. So it is possible that Cybertron is at least partially still intact.

The third was definitely the best of the three. The only falacys I could come up with were...


Why did Megatron bother with the Fallen when all this was already on the moon?
What was the point of the Harvester, it would have destroyed Sentinel.

"We were hidden in the first booster rocket"
Oh you mean the Rocket that blew apart? yeah you should tell your CGI guys what the story is before blowing up all the characters. After thought much?

Soundwave executes the prisoners:
Pretty sure he wouldn't have clearance from megs to start offing Autobots.
just because a human thinks it's personal.

Space Bridge: for a M. Bay "realism rules" movie, this was by far the dumbest most, ridiculously, UN-scientifically motivated parts of the movie. Not only would it take more energy then the Galaxy holds to warp space around a planet, but the minute it was turned off, and severed the planet, it would be severed even if re-started.
Then when it shuts off the last time, it suddenly creates a black hole, that sucks the planet back in..That's not how physics work BAY, mr. no Mass shifting!!!
That was so unbelievable Einstein just turned in his grave and **** his pants.

I call BS!

Also the minute a planet, the size of earth was next to us, we would collide into oblivion. Just bad writing on that part.

RodimalToyota wrote:The third was definitely the best of the three. The only falacys I could come up with were...


Why did Megatron bother with the Fallen when all this was already on the moon?

Maybe he didn't know it?

Soundwave executes the prisoners:
Pretty sure he wouldn't have clearance from megs to start offing Autobots.
just because a human thinks it's personal.

I think it was more of personal preference for Soundwave.

And I also think Megatron would've allowed Soundwave to execute any Autobot of his choice except for his enemies, such as Optimus.

Space Bridge: for a M. Bay "realism rules" movie, this was by far the dumbest most, ridiculously, UN-scientifically motivated parts of the movie. Not only would it take more energy then the Galaxy holds to warp space around a planet, but the minute it was turned off, and severed the planet, it would be severed even if re-started.
Then when it shuts off the last time, it suddenly creates a black hole, that sucks the planet back in..That's not how physics work BAY, mr. no Mass shifting!!!
That was so unbelievable Einstein just turned in his grave and **** his pants.

I call BS!

It's also not physically possible for blenders and plastic monster trucks to convert into robotic beings forged of metal alloy. Hell, beings from another planet isn't completely realistic in itself.

Also the minute a planet, the size of earth was next to us, we would collide into oblivion. Just bad writing on that part.

It's been hinted at a couple of times that Cybertron is smaller than that of Earth. I doubt a planet bigger than Earth has visible buildings, interstates, and cities from space. You would need to zoom in rather far to see those kinds of things on our world.

=================================

Personally, I find the first movie to be the best, and DOTM was behind it. ROTF was definitely the worst.

Accept in DOTM Cybertron was BIGGER wasn't it?

BeastProwl wrote:Accept in DOTM Cybertron was BIGGER wasn't it?

What, this?



Oh, naww man. It's not bigger.

RodimalToyota wrote:Soundwave executes the prisoners:
Pretty sure he wouldn't have clearance from megs to start offing Autobots.
just because a human thinks it's personal.

Soundwave killing Autobots isn't what was wrong with that part, what was wrong was the fact the Decepticons suddenly decided to take prisoners when they had been freely and indiscriminately destroying anything that wasn't themselves just before.

Noideaforaname wrote:

RodimalToyota wrote:Soundwave executes the prisoners:
Pretty sure he wouldn't have clearance from megs to start offing Autobots.
just because a human thinks it's personal.

Soundwave killing Autobots isn't what was wrong with that part, what was wrong was the fact the Decepticons suddenly decided to take prisoners when they had been freely and indiscriminately destroying anything that wasn't themselves just before.

Sentinel orders maybe?That was what i assumed.