IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:52 pm

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That is pretty hard to take and it shows great strength that he was able to finish this series.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Va'al » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:13 am

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Yeah, I read that last night as I started writing my review. It's heartbreaking. :(


I agree on the hugs. I flew off in the thread above, I apologise for my sharp responses and for derailing the thread.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby 1984forever » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:54 am

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This book is complete crap. I got the first 3 or 4 issues, I won't be getting this one.

I gotta agree with Prowl4 somewhat. I don't like Arcee. She's way too angry and overpowered. If you wanted an angry, transgendered robot (doesn't even make sense) with swords, why not make a new character. Why do this to Arcee?

Also IDW has included more female and homosexual Transformers to appeal to those groups to increase sales, nothing more. They're being used.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:59 pm

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A question- where does this and the last stand of the wreckers fit timeline wise?
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby D-Maximus_Prime » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:34 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:A question- where does this and the last stand of the wreckers fit timeline wise?

Last Stand was around the time of the 2009-2011 ongoing, the first couple issues. This one is around issue 43/44 of the current ex-RiD comic
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby RevTibe » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:48 pm

Geeze. I figured the reason for the delay would be rough, but didn't expect it to be that rough. I do appreciate that IDW was dedicated enough to the art and quality to allow a delay instead of rushing matters.
1984forever wrote:Also IDW has included more female and homosexual Transformers to appeal to those groups to increase sales, nothing more. They're being used.
Congrats, you just discovered capitalism! Remember, if they release a comic that does nothing but tonguebath the 80s cartoon, that's also an attempt to appeal to certain groups + increase sales. (Well, to be entirely fair, featuring Chromedome and Rewind as a couple was initially a risk - fandom does seem split on the matter. That, and writing stories that sell well isn't inherently negative.)
ZeroWolf wrote:A question- where does this and the last stand of the wreckers fit timeline wise?
At the start of ex-RID #45 Jetfire says "Kup, Arcee. About time you got back." Of course, that isn't definitive, but I think it's the best we've got in regards to specifically tying SotW to a specific issue instead of "sometime before they lose the Ark, but after Combiner Wars".
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:14 pm

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Thanks guys :-) it's good to know for my reading order.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby 1984forever » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:41 pm

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RevTibe wrote:Geeze. I figured the reason for the delay would be rough, but didn't expect it to be that rough. I do appreciate that IDW was dedicated enough to the art and quality to allow a delay instead of rushing matters.
1984forever wrote:Also IDW has included more female and homosexual Transformers to appeal to those groups to increase sales, nothing more. They're being used.
Congrats, you just discovered capitalism! Remember, if they release a comic that does nothing but tonguebath the 80s cartoon, that's also an attempt to appeal to certain groups + increase sales. (Well, to be entirely fair, featuring Chromedome and Rewind as a couple was initially a risk - fandom does seem split on the matter. That, and writing stories that sell well isn't inherently negative.)
ZeroWolf wrote:A question- where does this and the last stand of the wreckers fit timeline wise?
At the start of ex-RID #45 Jetfire says "Kup, Arcee. About time you got back." Of course, that isn't definitive, but I think it's the best we've got in regards to specifically tying SotW to a specific issue instead of "sometime before they lose the Ark, but after Combiner Wars".

Apparently IDW aren't good capitalists. The "what if Prime didn't get scrapped in the '86 movie" issue sold better than MTMTE that month even though it was horrendous, because G1 stuff sells better than Slashfic with TFs in it. Beast Wars doesn't sell either, which makes the choice of villains for sotw even more bizarre.

The moral of the story is cater to people like me, or don't get paid.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Burn » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:52 pm

1984forever wrote:The moral of the story is cater to people like me, or don't get paid.

They're getting paid. So get over yourself.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:56 pm

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Ah 1984 back to this argument because you're not being given what you want.

You need to understand why that particular one off sold so well. First off, it was based on a popular kids cartoon movie from the 80s that a lot of people know about and have seen, even if they are not involved with the franchise at the moment. To put it simply, nostalgia. Second, it was a stand alone so people could get that with worrying about the rest of the tf comics. Had it been longer and of the same quality, you would find the drop off rate to be more in line with everything else.

Even dreamwave lost huge numbers so they clearly did something wrong. Probably trying to be too much like the g1 toon that is hardly the pinnacle people claim it to be. It maybe the foundations but more talented people have built this franchise (fiction wise of course, I'm always amazed at the stories you can get from a toy commercial :-P)
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby 1984forever » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:30 pm

Motto: "TRUE FAN"
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Burn wrote:
1984forever wrote:The moral of the story is cater to people like me, or don't get paid.

They're getting paid. So get over yourself.
Sales numbers please.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Va'al » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:42 pm

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Sure, here. From Comichron.

March 2016
Transformers More Than Meets Eye 10,439
Transformers Deviations 9,196


--


Isn't Sins of the Wreckers great? So great.
Can't wait to share my review on Wednesday. :)
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby D-Maximus_Prime » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:14 pm

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I look forward to your review Va'al.

Now, I need to mention something here. I was going to bring it up in your "how to make transformers great again" thread, but had decided against it. But considering you want the sales numbers have this:

Those numbers that were posted here and in that thread are based on hard copies sold at American retail. They do not include worldwide, which IDW has been striving for recently. the UK gets a lot of these comics, and actually MTMTE and exRiD have been in the top 10 the past 5 months straight from Comixology. Those were shared on Robert's twitter page for your proof. So the online and international markets have been big things for the hard copies. The hardcopies are not as popular as they once were. there are a lot of online comics now, and that is where a lot of Transformers fans are now reading those comics, as evidenced by them selling that good on comixology and in the UK. So that site you see is not anywhere close to the actual numbers sold.

And you must remember this: deviations was a one off. It only beat the ongoingings by a few hundred comics and it was a single. Singles should sell easily. the one and the only.

Also, dreamwave did not handle business very well at all. It went bankrupt as comic sales declined and for years it did not pay its employees. but on the plus side, some scraped DW stuff was remade with IDW (megatron origin being one).

This may not be Last Stand, but it's supposed to be different from it. It's a whole new story for a different time in Transformers. You will get your wars again. For now, the war is over. This story is running its course and it is showing strength. It is appealing to different audiences and there is no need to get angry over it not appealing to you. That's why I don't buy Masterpiece and third party. they don't appeal. Same here.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby avisie » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:08 pm

Without having read the final issue, I can honestly say that I have enjoyed this series so far. LSOTW is one of my favourite TF comics of all time (having read everything from Marvel 84 onwards) and while I can appreciate that SOTW is entirely different in terms of pacing and action,I still find it a worthy 'spiritual' sequel. I see the characters considering the consequences of war and their conduct during the conflict (maybe not Guzzle) and I feel that it is handled well. We have a shed load of new and interesting characters, the return of a fan favourite in Springer and even more intrigue and depth to the enigma that is Prowl. Personal taste aside, I find it really disturbing that people bitch about a fembot - whose character has been very well defined in the IDWverse, yet still allowed to develop/regress in a realistic (to me )way - just because she's a fembot. Even worse is the hate and homophobic crap. To me, it is incredible to view characters I've loved for years, in a new (and modern) way. Entertainment has always ridden the wave of the zeitgeist and finally the world is in a strong enough place for amazing,creative writers and artists to be free to express their inclusive world views in almost every niche they can. If you can be upset about a couple of gay, fictional, alien robots, that really don't want to hurt anyone (Domey is trying to quit the needles) you might be the one that is a wrong'un.

Can't wait for Wednesday and thoughts go out to Mr Roche. The creative mind is a powerful thing. TAAO!
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby D-Maximus_Prime » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:13 pm

Motto: "There are no impossibilities in the multiverse, just small minds unable to comprehend the possibilities"
Weapon: Armor Axe
avisie wrote:Without having read the final issue, I can honestly say that I have enjoyed this series so far. LSOTW is one of my favourite TF comics of all time (having read everything from Marvel 84 onwards) and while I can appreciate that SOTW is entirely different in terms of pacing and action,I still find it a worthy 'spiritual' sequel. I see the characters considering the consequences of war and their conduct during the conflict (maybe not Guzzle) and I feel that it is handled well. We have a shed load of new and interesting characters, the return of a fan favourite in Springer and even more intrigue and depth to the enigma that is Prowl. Personal taste aside, I find it really disturbing that people bitch about a fembot - whose character has been very well defined in the IDWverse, yet still allowed to develop/regress in a realistic (to me )way - just because she's a fembot. Even worse is the hate and homophobic crap. To me, it is incredible to view characters I've loved for years, in a new (and modern) way. Entertainment has always ridden the wave of the zeitgeist and finally the world is in a strong enough place for amazing,creative writers and artists to be free to express their inclusive world views in almost every niche they can. If you can be upset about a couple of gay, fictional, alien robots, that really don't want to hurt anyone (Domey is trying to quit the needles) you might be the one that is a wrong'un.

Can't wait for Wednesday and thoughts go out to Mr Roche. The creative mind is a powerful thing. TAAO!

Thank you for the positive vibes and very well said. I think the conclusion will do the series good justice
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:27 am

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I never realised that megatron origins was DW to begin with :-)

I look forward to your review Va'al :D
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Va'al » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:50 am

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
D-Maximus_Primal wrote:And you must remember this: deviations was a one off. It only beat the ongoingings by a few hundred comics and it was a single. Singles should sell easily. the one and the only.


The post is great, and I agree. Just one note - even in single hardcopies, Deviations sold fewer copies.

Dr Va'al wrote:Sure, here. From Comichron.

March 2016
Transformers More Than Meets Eye 10,439
Transformers Deviations 9,196


On another note...

avisie wrote:I see the characters considering the consequences of war and their conduct during the conflict (maybe not Guzzle) and I feel that it is handled well. We have a shed load of new and interesting characters, the return of a fan favourite in Springer and even more intrigue and depth to the enigma that is Prowl.


Yes. This. Very well put, and spot on.
Review tomorroooooow! :D
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IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers #5 Review #SinsOfTheWreckers

Postby Va'al » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:56 pm

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Wreck, Rule
(Spoiler free-ish)



Synopsis
THIS IS THE END! Will PROWL get his comeuppance? Will TARANTULAS conquer all? Will any of the WRECKERS survive? It’s wreck and rule one last time, with everything on the line!

Image
Quite the hook


Story

Remember when we last talked about Sins of the Wreckers? Remember how I mentioned that issue #4 felt very much like an ending, and hoped that the actual end would live up to it? Even if you don't, I say it here, again: issue #5 is the ending that the series built to, prepared for, and ultimately, deserves. Let me tell you why.

Image
This guy, mostly


I will not spoil the book, there will be plenty of time for that in the discussion that will follow, I will point out, though, some of the highest notes that Nick Roche has achieved in this brief but in-depth plunge back into the world of one of more messed up teams in the IDWverse. Above all, the scheming and betrayal that runs deep and leads back to Prowl, always Prowl, and his machinations, and his creations - Tarantulas, Kup, Verity, the secret police, is everything his fault?

Image
Pretty much


We found out some of the dirty secrets last issue, but even more comes out this time: feelings of hurt, revenge, coping mechanisms, catharsis, and violence. A lot of violence, and characters forged through that violence and *bad stuff*. What we obtain is the strange mix of strength and weakness, as the two sides of the same coin - with emotion running all along the thin edge, the gut-wrenching type that comes with *bad stuff*.

Image
Whodat


If you're looking for Overlord levels of manipulation, but with an even stronger psychological connection between characters themselves, and creator and readers, this is the book you should pick up. It's raw, and still edited. It's hard to swallow, but it flow smoothly. It's good. You should read it.

Art

Roche is still very good at the storytelling happening in visual form too, though it should come as no surprise by now. Where the dialogue might risk to overpower the scene, the quieter frames actually allow for a wider scope, and a much deafening, visually speaking, effect. Towards the end, at the climax of the Tarantulas confrontation, you will explicitly see how words are not always needed.

Image
...'


Josh Burcham needs a lot of credit here, as the issue and the series look like nothing before in the IDWverse - even considering previous Roche projects, and Spotlight: Kup, of which we see many references in the series - as his colours are exquisitely apt and decisive for the full spectrum of greys (metaphor) used in the strands of the book. And some of the wider pages would lose a lot of their power without the colours.

Image
And of course, the Noisemaze


The lettering is fantastic, as it has been for the series so far, combining the visual power of size and colour with the fontwork that Tom B. Long can bring to a Transformers book. The silences become clearer, the beastly fonts give voices extra layers, and you can see-hear everything, even in the mess of the Noisemaze. As for covers, not only do we get another Roche/Burcham piece mirroring the first issue, we have the return of two Transformers favourites in E.J. Su (see preview thumbnail) and Guido Guidi (this thumbnail), with their takes on Wreckers past and present.


Thoughts
Spoilerish ahead

There have been delays, and they were fully justified - read more by Roche himself here - but even before knowing anything about the author's personal life, the issue, and the series as a result, is a strong, emotional, intense, heartfelt, harrowing, powerful, and most of all human piece of art. It deals with the horrors of emotions, of war, of betrayal, of anguish. It reaches, hard, for hearts and sparks alike. It wrecks.

Image
Those eyes


The conclusion is satisfying without being exhaustive, it keeps threads closed where they should and others open where they can. This was never one story, but a knot in a web of stories: there is no one single thread that would allow for a neat resolution. So it gives many, and does so in words, it does so in pictures, it does so in in ways that only this medium allows. It rules.

. :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: out of :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS: :WRECKERS:
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:07 am

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Great review Va'al. I'm going to try and pick this up in its collected form :-)
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Tigertrack » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:55 am

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Awesome review for a final issue, Va'al. I'm working on my own for TFVSGIGJOE, and I doubt it will be quite as eloquent, heartfelt, or even well thought out.

I was let down a couple times (and more when considering MTMTE), but mostly because characters did not act how I wanted them to or their ends were not what I wanted, but they instead acted in the manner in which they had been written and portrayed previously, realistically based on their former relationships and experiences within the written IDW-verse. It's hard to lose so many favorite characters recently because of how others portray them compared to how you 'think' they are in your own starry-eyed little chunk of fandom-reality.

I was glad to see the results of the end. I hope to see more. It was satisfying, and yet, not quite satisfying enough, you know?

ZeroWolf and others who want to wait, I suggest picking up this version, the collected, the hardcover collected when it comes out, and of course, a digital collected version as well. WHY you might ask would you do that and own so many copies of the same thing? To support this thing we like, to encourage the artist and creator to do more, to encourage the company that this product, this piece of creative art and literature is something we want to see more of.

It was worth the wait. It was worth the wait after Last Stand to get another Wreckers story. It was worth the wait while Nick (yeah, Nick he and I are like this so I can use his first name-- :lol: NOT--wish we were, but I can't be one of those social media stalkers...) went through his family's struggles and losing someone too early, and the birth of his child the ultimate in positive life energy-- to get to issue #4 and then finally #5.

Nick does what he should in his profession. He leaves us wanting more because his stuff is really that good. The episodic nature of his work: issue by issue, and then series by series really does that. I hope he gets the opportunity to do more, and that we don't have to wait as long for the coming of what's next.

Congratulations on finishing another exceptional, and I hope, award-winning series. Congratulations on your +1 achievement on adding a child to your family. Sins really leveled up Last Stand, and I loved Last Stand. Looking forward to the next Wreckers/Transformers adventure that you cook up.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:37 am

The other day Nick posted on his blog why this series met with so many delays. Anyone interested please give it a read but fair warning it's very sad and he did not have to do this. His personal life is none of our business. I commend him for opening up. It shows how much he cares about this book and the fans

http://nickroche.blogspot.com
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby D-Maximus_Prime » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:52 am

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Overall it was a good read.

Also: Look at Springers rear wheels in that last panel. There is a little spider in the wheel well. Tarantulas lives! And he's with his "son" basically so I suppose he is somewhat happy
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby 1984forever » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:19 am

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Weapon: Cluster Bombs
Dr Va'al wrote:
D-Maximus_Primal wrote:And you must remember this: deviations was a one off. It only beat the ongoingings by a few hundred comics and it was a single. Singles should sell easily. the one and the only.


The post is great, and I agree. Just one note - even in single hardcopies, Deviations sold fewer copies.

Dr Va'al wrote:Sure, here. From Comichron.

March 2016
Transformers More Than Meets Eye 10,439
Transformers Deviations 9,196


On another note...

avisie wrote:I see the characters considering the consequences of war and their conduct during the conflict (maybe not Guzzle) and I feel that it is handled well. We have a shed load of new and interesting characters, the return of a fan favourite in Springer and even more intrigue and depth to the enigma that is Prowl.


Yes. This. Very well put, and spot on.
Review tomorroooooow! :D

MTMTE # 50 which was supposed to be released in FEB sold over 10,000. Deviations which was a March release, beat MTMTE #51 (8124) which was also released in March. 2000 readers lost in 2 weeks, wow. The whole SOTW is just another nail in the coffin.
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Tigertrack » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:34 am

Motto: "A good head and a good heart are always a formidable combination."
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1984forever wrote:
Dr Va'al wrote:
D-Maximus_Primal wrote:And you must remember this: deviations was a one off. It only beat the ongoingings by a few hundred comics and it was a single. Singles should sell easily. the one and the only.


The post is great, and I agree. Just one note - even in single hardcopies, Deviations sold fewer copies.

Dr Va'al wrote:Sure, here. From Comichron.

March 2016
Transformers More Than Meets Eye 10,439
Transformers Deviations 9,196


On another note...

avisie wrote:I see the characters considering the consequences of war and their conduct during the conflict (maybe not Guzzle) and I feel that it is handled well. We have a shed load of new and interesting characters, the return of a fan favourite in Springer and even more intrigue and depth to the enigma that is Prowl.


Yes. This. Very well put, and spot on.
Review tomorroooooow! :D

MTMTE # 50 which was supposed to be released in FEB sold over 10,000. Deviations which was a March release, beat MTMTE #51 (8124) which was also released in March. 2000 readers lost in 2 weeks, wow. The whole SOTW is just another nail in the coffin.


I'm going to disagree, but certainly you can have your opinion!
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Re: IDW Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:42 am

Tigertrack wrote:
1984forever wrote:
Dr Va'al wrote:
D-Maximus_Primal wrote:And you must remember this: deviations was a one off. It only beat the ongoingings by a few hundred comics and it was a single. Singles should sell easily. the one and the only.


The post is great, and I agree. Just one note - even in single hardcopies, Deviations sold fewer copies.

Dr Va'al wrote:Sure, here. From Comichron.

March 2016
Transformers More Than Meets Eye 10,439
Transformers Deviations 9,196


On another note...

avisie wrote:I see the characters considering the consequences of war and their conduct during the conflict (maybe not Guzzle) and I feel that it is handled well. We have a shed load of new and interesting characters, the return of a fan favourite in Springer and even more intrigue and depth to the enigma that is Prowl.


Yes. This. Very well put, and spot on.
Review tomorroooooow! :D

MTMTE # 50 which was supposed to be released in FEB sold over 10,000. Deviations which was a March release, beat MTMTE #51 (8124) which was also released in March. 2000 readers lost in 2 weeks, wow. The whole SOTW is just another nail in the coffin.


I'm going to disagree, but certainly you can have your opinion!


Don't respond to his comments tiger. He's hust here to troll. Like all IDW threads. Just ignore him
Randomhero
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