IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby sol magnus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:10 am

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Well, your complaints are well articulated. And that's fine. I'm not saying there are no legit gripes with the series - but, it's never going to be "perfect", even if such a thing exists.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby william-james88 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:24 am

sol magnus wrote:Well, your complaints are well articulated. And that's fine. I'm not saying there are no legit gripes with the series - but, it's never going to be "perfect", even if such a thing exists.


I witnessed perfection and it was in the form of IDW Transformers 22 and 23.

f course, thats just my opinion and just 2 issues rather than an entire series
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:26 am

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sol magnus wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
sol magnus wrote:but none of them straight laid out how we get started in the war, either. All of that is scattershot across the continuity.


Megatron: Origin did exactly that. The first canonical story in the pre-retconned IDWverse.

Umm, no. The war hadn't started at the end of the series. Megatron said he "had a few ideas."



So which was the point you were looking for? How the war got started (your initial comment) or when it started (your reply)?

How it got started was addressed in Megatron: Origin. The Autobots were a fascist ruling class, that oppressed its workers. Through circumstance a figurehead rose up to unite said oppressed and overthrow those in power. That is exactly how the war started and. In contrast to the new continuity, that was all covered within 4 issues.

Autocracy was part of the Retconned IDWverse origin. Chiefly because it read like those disgruntled to read Megatron was the initial protagonist, the Autobots were the villains and Optimus wasn't even a part of the origin story. Some clearly didn't like how new and different IDWverse was at it's inception. Explaining why those early days were repackaged into something more "G1 friendly".

Also please don't try to assert that this new run is anything approaching a "cerebral" story. I've read comics for 30 years. For cerebral books, I'd point you to Alan Moore, Grant Morrison or a whole host of Indie authors.
This current IDWverse is superficial story telling with clunky, heavy exposition and very little substance beyond that.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby sol magnus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:53 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
sol magnus wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
sol magnus wrote:but none of them straight laid out how we get started in the war, either. All of that is scattershot across the continuity.


Megatron: Origin did exactly that. The first canonical story in the pre-retconned IDWverse.

Umm, no. The war hadn't started at the end of the series. Megatron said he "had a few ideas."


Also please don't try to assert that this new run is anything approaching a "cerebral" story. I've read comics for 30 years. For cerebral books, I'd point you to Alan Moore, Grant Morrison or a whole host of Indie authors.
This current IDWverse is superficial story telling with clunky, heavy exposition and very little substance beyond that.

Not gonna address the war origin part, because it's splitting hairs.

I didn't say this series was "cerebral," and wouldn't exactly look to Transformers for that kind of storytelling anyway, since there's always a sales component to it. I've been reading comics for quite a while myself. I know the difference.

The main thing where we part ways is you don't like and I do. Were you the one who pretty much proclaimed everybody hates it? Not sure, don't have time to read up. I for one, don't hate it, and am hoping it's all leading somewhere satisfying. I, like many, could use some more action. But I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:07 am

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To me there is nothing to like. Or dislike. Because eight issues in and nothing has happened.

Characterisation is also nonexistent, other than what is accepted as pre-established. For example, by issue one or two of Infiltration, you had a sense of the new personalities of Ratchet, Starscream and others. All the developmental focus of the new run has been on two characters, max. Everyone else, you are just left to presume they think and act as you assume they would from previous continuity. Has Pax or Megs been given any depth beyond being Orion Pax and Megatron, badgeless?
That is what a new continuity needs to do as quickly as possible.

As I said before, by issue 8, IDWverse was into Stormbringer IE World Building and in the way most important to comics, as a visual medium, by showing said building, not talking about it.

What I "proclaimed" was no one has talked positively about this. To state a book is "hated" is childish and frankly that kind of attitude is beneath me. I treat what I read rationally, as an adult.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Stargrave » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:14 am

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With the current series being where it’s at where would each of you see a cool upswing?

Say you’re the new writer taking the title in a bold new direction, where do you take us?

All perspectives welcome totally just making conversation.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:19 am

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Next immediate issue/arc: Threefold Spark War.

As IDWverse did with Stormbringer, showing why the Cybertronians abandoned Cybertron (a great new idea that each subsequent writer gave up on). The new book needs to SHOW why their race has imposed such restrictions upon itself.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby sol magnus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:30 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Next immediate issue/arc: Threefold Spark War.

As IDWverse did with Stormbringer, showing why the Cybertronians abandoned Cybertron (a great new idea that each subsequent writer gave up on). The new book needs to SHOW why their race has imposed such restrictions upon itself.

I can agree with that. Even a story unto itself, in a separate series.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Dr. Caelus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:56 am

There are a lot of valid criticisms in this thread, but the people who complain about having too many words in a book... #-o

Though I'm seriously considering "Weirdo Leftist" as a new screen name. It speaks to me.

I haven't warmed to the new series yet, but I went into it expecting that my love for the characters in the previous universe would bias me against the reboot that ended that series, so I don't know that my marginal interest in the series isn't because of that.

People saying that the characters are more of the same I don't really get - Bumblebee and maybe Optimus are more or less the same, but the others feel significantly different. Which would be fine; it's a new timeline, and it's at a different point in time, so a lot of characters should be different. Unfortunately, the new versions of the characters are generally pretty flat.

In the previous series Prowl was fun because he was ruthless, and a great thematic mirror to Shockwave. Now Prowl is just... mildly abrasive? Which we largely know from what other characters say about him, rather than from his own actual actions.

Chromia was arguably more ruthless than Prowl, had moral conflicts with her duties, had a dry snark that was fun, and yet also had a vulnerable streak. Interesting character. Now she's cop, and that's about it.

Cyclonus was basically a man-out-of-time, thrust back into a world where he no longer belonged. Interesting character. Now he's a war vet with PTSD, which can be interesting, but at this point can also be hackneyed. Authors love to write about veterans with PTSD, because it's a safe form of 'wokeness' - deep and controversial without actually being controversial or especially deep. People seem really excited about Cyclonus, but I'm just feeling like, 'Oh, here we go again.'

Soundwave was a tool of 'the man' who found liberation in the Decepticon cause and threw himself into it fanatically for reasons that were relatable and even good. Interesting! Now he's a senator himself, but as a high-profile office holder, for some reason he still runs around doing shady things personally, rather than delegating his questionable activities to his cassettes and/or interns. His motivations are ambiguous and his competency as well.

Megatron was a writer first and foremost, and had more beautifully crafted dialogue than he's ever been given in any Transformers canon. His talent for using words to inspire or demoralize was amazing (I ended up quoting him in the foreword to my dissertation). While he seems to be having more legitimate success in this new universe, it's hard to see why - his one big speech sounded like it was written by an uninspired high schooler.

Of course, Rubble wasn't in the previous universe - he's a new character, with all sorts of potential. There's no way to guess how his character development and choices might influence the pl- :BOOM:

Overall, while I respect the idea of starting a new continuity from the beginning, that's still not what we have - a great deal of time is invested in world/history building retrospectively, revealing things that have already happened, and which seem generally more interesting than the story line transpiring in the comics' present.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Black Hat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:55 pm

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See I'd be interested in a "political intrigue" story if it actually did something fresh and interesting rather than just "IRL politics complete with author's biases BUT WITH ROBOTS". Or heck, even if it did take inspiration from IRL politics but didn't use the exact same sources of inspiration as every other "political intrigue" story with the exact same biases.

There's loads of ways one could approach the "rise to power of evil dictator" story from a political angle. If you must use allegory (like Tolkein I rather dislike it) you could do a critique of Socialism, with Megatron championing a downtrodden workforce in some principality of Cybertron and rising up to cast down the oppressive Autobot overlords...only to discover that they totally lack the means, resources or knowledge to sustain themselves at even the most basic level, let alone the "free stuff" utopia Megatron dreamt of, resulting in the Decepticon state becoming an absolute trainwreck relying on invading neighboring states to get the resources needed to feed the woefully inefficient and corrupt workings of the Decepticon Union. Whilst obviously the immediate IRL parallel would be the Soviet Union, you could also work in a bit of the mess going on in places like South Africa and Zimbabwe ("Let's reclaim these farms from the colonist descendants for we natives!...Oh. Wait. We have no idea how to run these farms, and they're falling apart and we're starving. Whoops!").

There's so many cases of well-intentioned (and not so well-intentioned) people coming to power and slowly being twisted into insane despots by the corrupting influence of power and the harshness of reality. It's a shame that it'll most likely be yet another "ZOMG the villain is totally HITLER and the bad guys are all NAZIS!!!!" mess which doesn't do anything new with the concept and just uses loose IRL allegories as narrative punching bags, whilst also completely ignoring the IRL factors that lead to the rise of their inspirations in the first place (in the case of Nazi Germany, for example, the atrocious state of the country post-WW1 thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, leading to utter economic ruin save for a privileged few, who of course became immediate scapegoats).
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Dr. Caelus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:29 pm

Black Hat wrote:There's loads of ways one could approach the "rise to power of evil dictator" story from a political angle. If you must use allegory (like Tolkein I rather dislike it) you could do a critique of Socialism, with Megatron championing a downtrodden workforce in some principality of Cybertron and rising up to cast down the oppressive Autobot overlords...only to discover that they totally lack the means, resources or knowledge to sustain themselves at even the most basic level, let alone the "free stuff" utopia Megatron dreamt of, resulting in the Decepticon state becoming an absolute trainwreck relying on invading neighboring states to get the resources needed to feed the woefully inefficient and corrupt workings of the Decepticon Union. Whilst obviously the immediate IRL parallel would be the Soviet Union, you could also work in a bit of the mess going on in places like South Africa and Zimbabwe ("Let's reclaim these farms from the colonist descendants for we natives!...Oh. Wait. We have no idea how to run these farms, and they're falling apart and we're starving. Whoops!").


So, Animal Farm and basically every McCarthy-to-Reagan era wet dream of Capitalism being God's chosen economic system. But with alien robots.

Re: Authorial Bias: Fiction isn't supposed to be objective. Any author who has any passion about what s/he is writing has something to sell, philosophically, morally, or politically.

But even considering that, I have always found it odd that political Cons get so upset about liberal biases in IDW's Transformers comics. Certainly there's an absence of a proconservative bias, but I read the Decepticons' story arc in the previous run as a cautionary tale for liberals - not about what our opposition could become, but what we could become. Megatron and Soundwave, especially, spoke to the slippery slope of moral compromise that one can encounter when trying to resist right wing authorianism.

Edit: I mean, for Pete's sakes, Megatron: Origin ends with Megatron assassinating a narrative effigy of how Liberals view conservative politicians. Sentinel Prime represents everything Liberals hate, but Megatron murdering him was what triggered a massive civil war and began the Deceptions on a path towards becoming as bad as him.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Black Hat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:49 pm

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Dr. Caelus wrote:
Black Hat wrote:There's loads of ways one could approach the "rise to power of evil dictator" story from a political angle. If you must use allegory (like Tolkein I rather dislike it) you could do a critique of Socialism, with Megatron championing a downtrodden workforce in some principality of Cybertron and rising up to cast down the oppressive Autobot overlords...only to discover that they totally lack the means, resources or knowledge to sustain themselves at even the most basic level, let alone the "free stuff" utopia Megatron dreamt of, resulting in the Decepticon state becoming an absolute trainwreck relying on invading neighboring states to get the resources needed to feed the woefully inefficient and corrupt workings of the Decepticon Union. Whilst obviously the immediate IRL parallel would be the Soviet Union, you could also work in a bit of the mess going on in places like South Africa and Zimbabwe ("Let's reclaim these farms from the colonist descendants for we natives!...Oh. Wait. We have no idea how to run these farms, and they're falling apart and we're starving. Whoops!").


So, Animal Farm and basically every McCarthy-to-Reagan era wet dream of Capitalism being God's chosen economic system. But with alien robots.

I mean, Animal Farm IS one of my favourite books, and whilst capitalism ain't perfect (though ultimately no system ever can be, as "utopian" ideals never work out- which would be an interesting theme to play with incidentally) it's sure better than the alternatives, especially that one they tried up until about '91 which caused more deaths than just about any other regime in history. :-?
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Dr. Caelus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:35 pm

Black Hat wrote:I mean, Animal Farm IS one of my favourite books, and whilst capitalism ain't perfect (though ultimately no system ever can be, as "utopian" ideals never work out- which would be an interesting theme to play with incidentally) it's sure better than the alternatives, especially that one they tried up until about '91 which caused more deaths than just about any other regime in history. :-?


Right wing authorianism in a pink dress is still fascism.

Edit: And if the bodies were tallied honestly capitalism would be far deadlier than any other economic system. At least, I'm sure it'll reach first place in thirty years or so.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:09 am

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Dr. Caelus wrote:Edit: I mean, for Pete's sakes, Megatron: Origin ends with Megatron assassinating a narrative effigy of how Liberals view conservative politicians. Sentinel Prime represents everything Liberals hate, but Megatron murdering him was what triggered a massive civil war and began the Deceptions on a path towards becoming as bad as him.



Sometimes, a rose is just a rose. Or an oppressed underclass rising up against a fascist dictatorship, as I read it. Plus all that sounds like American political claptrap, of which the Scottish author Eric Holmes, isn't.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:37 am

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You can never know the intent of authors unless they say it themselves, I mean the president at the time was G W Bush, and its quite easy for a non-American to hold a view of American politics now in the days of the web.

Now with the recent reveal of Battlemaster Rung, does this mean he'll be re-entering the comics? Maybe being a font for Primus from the get go. It is good though to see that these characters are getting their due and will maybe start to appear in other media, thus proving there is a taste out there for brand new characters.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:43 am

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ZeroWolf wrote:You can never know the intent of authors unless they say it themselves, I mean the president at the time was G W Bush, and its quite easy for a non-American to hold a view of American politics now in the days of the web.


I'm sceptical about that. Nothing within Origin really parallels Bush Era. Which like with the current Trump Era, if an author has something to say directly, it isn't subtle.

ZeroWolf wrote:Now with the recent reveal of Battlemaster Rung, does this mean he'll be re-entering the comics? Maybe being a font for Primus from the get go. It is good though to see that these characters are getting their due and will maybe start to appear in other media, thus proving there is a taste out there for brand new characters.



Well given they are shamelessly lifting the cast of the last continuity into the new one, anything is possible. Maybe one day we'll get a genuine reboot >:oP
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:54 am

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Surely lifting the characters out isn't the problem, but having the exact same characterisation is? I mean prime and the like are consistently recycled, so what's wrong with Rung and Co joining in?

The cast isn't what's harming this series, the writing is but then I wonder... Do hasbro want this series to run concurrently with the trilogy? Is that why the series has been paced the way it has?
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:01 am

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A reboot is a fresh start, with in theory, fresh characterisation. Infiltration for example, no one spoke or really acted as the last time they were seen, in G1/G2. Plus the cast you saw in the last issues of Marvel US and UK, were not those in Infiltration #1.

It is not always a right or wrong answer. It is about fulfilling a brief. A Reboot does not mean copy & paste the last run, in any form, it means begin again from scratch.

I think the book will change as soon as the WFC cartoon starts.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:21 am

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A cartoon on which we still don't Know much about... Good thing it's SDCC this week :lol:
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Black Hat » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:24 am

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What I don't understand is why we have to have yet another "serious business" type story. Is it impossible to just have a fun Transformers comic? Heck, it's not even like having silliness and daft robot antics precludes having hidden depths or serious parts; look at Masamune Shirow's Ghost in the Shell manga as an example. It features top-class worldbuilding, intriguing hard-sci-fi concepts and some heavy moments, but you still have the Major being a drunken goofball and occasionally turning into a floofy gremlin for comedic effect. And even in Transformers itself, some of the best entries in the franchise (Animated and Beast Wars) were often really, really silly. Heck, the G1 cartoon wasn't exactly fine art, as much as I like it.

I dunno, rather than focusing on trying to be "deep and meaningful" I'd much rather they just made something enjoyable. Sod the socio-political commentary, throw the unconvincing drama out the window and just give us a fun robot romp that anyone can enjoy.

Or if they must try and add some kind of food for thought, make it something interesting. I would suggest a criticism of consumerism, the "Don't ask questions, just buy product and be excited for next product" mindset and how easily people are duped into buying products from massive brands thinking they'll make them more complete/better people/whatever (example: "If you don't watch this movie, buy the merchandise and make your friends do the same you're behind the times/a bad person!"), but given the semi-toy-selling aspect that's never happening in a million years.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:31 am

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I'd agree about fun. As I've often said, to me one story is the absolute pinnacle of IDWverse, better than anything else. The Last Stand of the Wreckers. Dark at times? Serious at times? yes. Fun, from start to finish? Absolutely.
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:39 am

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You've reminded me that I would kill for season 4 of animated to continue in comic form, there was plans and I'd like to see where they went. That branch of the tf universe never gets the love it deserves. I dare say that was the last time that hasbro tried something radically different
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby Stargrave » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:50 am

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Not to get too sappy but thank all of you for the depth of passion and intelligence you put into this stuff like it’s so easy for people to just trash opinions it takes a Transformer fan to choose to outthink problems instead of bashing them over the head

So, well done :APPLAUSE:
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IDW Transformers Releasing Additional Printings of Numbers 1, 3, and 4

Postby Stargrave » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:06 pm

Motto: "It’s all the in the reflexes"
Weapon: Glass Gas Gun
Our own fellow Seibertronian Scotty P has discovered seemingly out of what feels like nowhere with no press or fanfare, some previous issues of IDW's new series have received new printings and are available today. He only found out about this through IDW's weekly newsletter. Each cover is modified and is available by clicking either the links or images below.

So that's issue 1's third printing, issue 3's second printing, and issue 4's second printing.

If any of you rabid readers out there missed out on your first chance now's your time! These have apparently been released as of today so head out to your local comic shop and demand your copy!


Image

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Enjoy the reads and as always stay tuned to Seibertron for the latest in Transformers news!
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Re: IDW Transformers Version 2.0 "A Bold New Era" Ongoing Discussion

Postby sol magnus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Motto: "This is the most beautiful thing in the entire universe. Ok, give me the bomb."
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So, Transformers #9 came out...
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