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Has IDW's version of the classic characters started to take more precedence than the original G1 versions?

For the obvious example, when I think of Megatron, I no longer think of the megalomaniac personification of evil destroyer of worlds, but now I think of the conflicted freedom fighter who tried too hard and lost his way.

When I think of Hot Rod, I don't think of the young hero ready to step up and carry the Matrix. I think of the immature leader who means well, but can't get out of his own way.

When I think of Optimus, I don't think of the greatest hero of my childhood. I think of the proverb that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

IDW has moved so far beyond the humble beginnings of our beloved toy commercial. I just realized today talking with a fellow nerd, that "old school" G1 is fading away to me. The vast world building and attention to character building IDW has done is winning. I'm okay with this.

Your thoughts?

Realistically, what character was developed back in G1 would have been done on the cartoons (I'm talking majority here, I'm well aware of the comics) and while you had your core group developed, they were at the end of the day, just cartoon characters.

So I don't think of it as replacing, more fleshing out.

Yeah to expand a bit on what Burn said, for me it's a little bit of yes and a little bit of no. In cases like Skywarp, Ironhide, even Shockwave, they're so similar to the original G1 characterizations that it's tough to divorce the concepts. On the other hand, the shifty Prowl, philosopher-warrior Megatron, and sneakily competent-but-sometimes-not Rodimus are completely new versions to me based on the G1 characters. They're like RiD Bumblebee or Prime Starscream, clearly fitting parts of the character archetype but not going so far as to be slavishly repetitive.

Ironhidensh wrote:Has IDW's version of the classic characters started to take more precedence than the original G1 versions?

For the obvious example, when I think of Megatron, I no longer think of the megalomaniac personification of evil destroyer of worlds, but now I think of the conflicted freedom fighter who tried too hard and lost his way.

When I think of Hot Rod, I don't think of the young hero ready to step up and carry the Matrix. I think of the immature leader who means well, but can't get out of his own way.

When I think of Optimus, I don't think of the greatest hero of my childhood. I think of the proverb that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

IDW has moved so far beyond the humble beginnings of our beloved toy commercial. I just realized today talking with a fellow nerd, that "old school" G1 is fading away to me. The vast world building and attention to character building IDW has done is winning. I'm okay with this.

Your thoughts?

Just another artistic/writer's take on already iconic characters who already have established mythos. I compare it to the 3D CGI Beowolf movie against the literal version of Beowolf. I still go with the original.

Well, IDW is my favourite Transformers continuity by a long shot for me, so it's hard for me not to think of their interpretations of the characters when I think of one. Possibly the only non-IDW version of a G1 character I think of (not, of course, counting characters that haven't actually had much of a role or character building in IDW) would be Optimus, but considering his G1 Cartoon version was so iconic... it's easy to see why. Plus I guess I'm just a bit of a sucker for the idea of him as a kind of father figure, which the G1 Cartoon does best over later interpretations like TFP - he's not just a wise leader, he's a wise leader who's your friend. He'll defeat the Decepticons with a hearty cheer then go and play basketball with Spike and the Dinobots five minutes later. That's one of the things I really miss in most versions of Optimus, especially the Aligned version.


... but I digress. I think something that has to be considered here is that there weren't an awful lot of characters that really got a lot of development in the G1 Cartoon - and even beyond just 'G1 Cartoon', going into Marvel and the three Japanese-Original series, that pool of developed and memorable characters doesn't really expand by a huge amount. It's a fault that was there from the outset; the first episode literally required the introduction of over 25 characters. You're going to need to pick a couple to give focus to. IDW doesn't have that hindrance because it's made years after the fact and can select whoever the heck it wants to use without Hasbro demanding them to sell 3 billion toys getting in the way.

So with that... which characters from the G1 Cartoon could you really say were developed? Prowl and Thundercracker are two huge standouts in IDW whose characterisations are what I would argue to be some of the best and most memorable of the comic's history - it's to the extent that I literally find it difficult to sum up Prowl's personality without going into a very long drabble. In the cartoon, meanwhile, they... weren't. Thundercracker and Skywarp were rather infamously given 'thug' as a personality there and that was about it. The same unfortunately went for a lot of Decepticons - the triple changers, Frenzy, the coneheads... most of Soundwave's Cassettes even were mindless beasts. The only 'cons I'd argue that really got personality were Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream, Rumble (the blue one), Swindle, Galvatron, Cyclonus and Zarak. I guess Blitzwing had a sort of faction betrayal in FFOD, but beyond that what could you really tell me about Scourge or Ramjet or, hell, any of the Stunticons? And even then, Megatron wasn't that memorable himself - he was just a generic dumb leader who didn't listen to his underlings. At least Galvatron had the insanity going for him which was always fun to watch, but was anyone's favourite really Megatron? You can easily see why most future incarnations of him were very different and why IDW went for a very different spin on him - unlike more interesting Decepticons like Swindle and Starscream, there simply wasn't a lot to go on for him in the personality department.

The Autobots had a bit of a better run... but mostly because they got little moral-of-the-day episodes which didn't really factor into their personalities much aside from maybe Gears. If we're talking memorable Autobots, once again, what could you really tell me about Hoist or Windcharger or Superion? At least I need more than two hands to count the memorable Autobots this time around, but you see my point. Such a huge cast meant focus was nonexistent and many characters simply didn't get a lot of personality outside their own little one-off episodes.

So... yeah, it's easy for IDW versions of characters to take precedence over the G1 Cartoon when pretty much every character there was very one-note, even if those notes were a little memorable and cute. I love the G1 Cartoon - it's silly and fun and cute and goofy. And the movie is always an awesome treat to sit down and watch. But at the end of the day, what enjoyment we get out of it is not directly equivalent to the quality of the series - and the lack of care for it's production shown in pretty much every interview speaks volumes of that. It's not good in the character department - nor the plot department, and most certainly not the animation department, lordy. TFWiki's error section is three pages long for an average episode. We have characters that spawned from animation errors, that's how infamously bad this is!

At some point I think I rambled on too much and forgot what the topic of the thread was. But, uh... yeah. To try and shamble together a point out of everything I said; while we enjoy the series, that enjoyment can distract us from how one-note the characters were even if they're memorable. So that's why it's pretty easy for actual well-developed and well-crafted characters in IDW like Megatron, Rodimus, Ratchet etc. to take precedence in our minds over their original incarnations.

Overall, my answer is no.

I do appreciate what IDW has done, even if I was late to the game. I didn't start reading the IDW comics until 2015. I don't think James Roberts is better at character development than Simon Furman was 25 years ago, but the characters are still good and entertaining.

However, if someone talks to me about Transformers, unless they specify which iteration they are speaking of, I always think it's the original Generation 1 versions, simply because it's what I grew up with and what I have ingrained in my memories. If someone were to speak to me about the Bayverse characters, that person would have to specify that that's what they are speaking of. And this is not just regarding the IDW versions. if someone were to bring up "Dinobot" my first response would be "which one?" before I even think of the Beast Wars character, as good as he was. Of course, characters that originated from a series other than Generation 1 are exempt from this, if someone says "Rattrap" or "Cheetor" I immediately know who they're talking about.

But in the end, if a character appeared in the G1 comics and cartoon, (especially the comics, my go-to origin story) that version is the default version I go with, unless otherwise specified.

IDW will NEVER replace. G1. NEVER. Having said that, and since Ironhidensh mentioned it, I do love what they did with Megatron as a character. But when someone says "Megatron" to me, I still think of a raspy voice, megalomania, and utter destruction. Even if my favorite is Beast Megatron.

Rodimus Prime wrote:However, if someone talks to me about Transformers, unless they specify which iteration they are speaking of, I always think it's the original Generation 1 versions, simply because it's what I grew up with and what I have ingrained in my memories.

I think this is a fascinating point, and one I want to pick apart (because I do agree with you on the principle, though not the thing itself) and look at from another perspective.

I came to the fandom quite late, despite liking the robots from an early age. I got into comics because I met JP Bove at a comics con, and it just so happened to coincide with DOOP coming out, Ryall's first UK visit, my first meeting with Roche and the purchasing of LSTOW hardcover (Nick is a charming seller). I dislike the live action films, though the 2007 one was what put the robots back on my radar, and entirely by accident (saw a poster in the cinema).

So, to me, there is no G1. G1 means nothing to me. I didn't see it as a kid, I only saw half of Beast Wars, I didn't see the 1986 movie until muuuuuuuch later. Yet if someone says Transformers, to me, it still refers immediately to that part of the franchise from the 80s. Why? Recognisable designs? Memorable pop culture status? Prestige of the latter (meant in sociolinguistics term, not actual value)? As I said, emotionally it means nothing at all. But that's where it darts.

So to me, IDW's universe is the only universe that matters, from an emotional, attachment perspective. It's my G1 in the sense that it holds many dear things and memories as others seem to have with the first G1 series/toys/comics. But as the latter doesn't count, to me, it's not replacing it.


I see it as: the referent for the word 'Transformers' is the 80s system, because of its pop culture status. When I talk 'Transformers', though, my referent is the IDW stuff, because that's what I care and am invested in, it'll not be anything else.


However, thinking on that last point...

'Optimus Prime', objectively and subjectively, I always assume looks more or less like this (even with the IDW redesign, OP has a particular valence in pop currency):



But if you Google search, he actually looks like this:




No mention of IDW, but a lot of Bayverse. So is Bayverse 'replacing' G1 in cultural reference?

G1 Character and IDW...

I have to go with Burn's assessment that it's more fleshing out of the characters. It really brings the characters into shades of grey. Megatron is not 100% evil and Prime is not 100% good, which was the impression I got in the cartoons. Optimus could do no wrong and Megatron could do no good.

The fact they are letting other characters shine, such as "peg warmer" types, giving Starscream the chance to lead, Allowing Thundercracker to defect. And doing so in a slow natural progression. Megatron was not suddenly made good. He had a revelation. Starscream is slowly changing from his ways becoming different yet still himself.

I am loving the story lines, and how it develops.

WIll it replace G1 for me? Absolutely not. But its a fleshing out.

Va'al wrote:So is Bayverse 'replacing' G1 in cultural reference?

I will respond to your entire post, but I wanted to quote that sentence because it was a subject I wanted to touch upon.

First, I totally understand your point of view, having IDW be the point of reference when thinking of Transformers, because it was the first deep connection you made with the franchise. Correct? For me this was Generation 1. I didn't say I hold G1 above IDW because I'm a "geewunner" (and I rather dislike that term, much like "true fan") I hold G1 above IDW, because G1 was my first. And you never forget your first even if it wasn't the highest quality.

Anyway, to be serious, I get why some fans prefer IDW, especially younger fans or those like Va'al who came to the franchise late, it's what is current in the franchise right now, along with the Bayverse movies, though those are on a 3-year break, whereas a new comic issue comes out every month in several series. So plenty to read.

I used to ignore IDW, because I didn't care for the majority of the art style. I still don't. No current art style will be as appealing to me as Andrew Wildman's was at the end of the original G1 run, or in ReGeneration One. Too bad Simon Furman had lost his touch by 2012, so the stories were sub-par. Nonetheless, I was ecstatic when G1 returned, even if for a limited time. And the characters used by IDW currently do not count as G1, because they're not the original versions. They might take the names, even likenesses and backstories, but this is 2017, not 1984, therefore IDW cannot be G1, whether they try or not.

Now, the point about the above quoted sentence regarding Bayverse. I mentioned before that whenever someone talks about Transformers with me and they don't specify the continuity, I revert to G1 automatically. However, if I talk to someone younger than me, I usually stop and check with them if they're indeed speaking of G1, or if they are talking about Bayverse, because it is the most popular (or at least well-known) facet of the franchise right now. So is Bayverse replacing G1, as you asked? My answer is I don't think so, but for a lot of people Bayverse is the starting out point, so for them that is the original continuity, and perhaps they view G1 as some ancient relic to be referenced once in a while.

Thoughts coming on the good points raised here, when I have access to a keyboard.

Somehow, I wasn't getting reply notifications, or just missed them.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Va'al wrote:So is Bayverse 'replacing' G1 in cultural reference?

Now, the point about the above quoted sentence regarding Bayverse. I mentioned before that whenever someone talks about Transformers with me and they don't specify the continuity, I revert to G1 automatically. However, if I talk to someone younger than me, I usually stop and check with them if they're indeed speaking of G1, or if they are talking about Bayverse, because it is the most popular (or at least well-known) facet of the franchise right now. So is Bayverse replacing G1, as you asked? My answer is I don't think so, but for a lot of people Bayverse is the starting out point, so for them that is the original continuity, and perhaps they view G1 as some ancient relic to be referenced once in a while.

Yes, context of the conversation is very much applicable in these cases, very much agreed. But I'll also add that I don't usually assume the people I talk about TFs to are necessary in the know of anything TF related - and when that is the case, Bayverse does indeed come up before any other incarnation, because it's more visible, I suppose.

It's an interesting development, really, that the current cultural referent is the live-action movies for a lot of hypercasuals (to use a ScottyPism). I don't find it just to be younger people, either.

(I mean, you'd have to go into the description of the different things to make any of it make sense: G1 is nothing like IDW (ymmv), which is nothing like the Bayverse, which is only vaguely related to any of the animated shows since Beast Wars. More like parallel lines with crossover in names only at the best. It's not an easy lore to convey to people who aren't in it, I feel.)

The G1 cartoon is still my definitive take on the characters, because that was my introduction to them and what I grew up with. IDW only tends to supplant that if we're dealing with individuals who didn't get much, if any, characterization (hello Tailgate).

Va'al wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Va'al wrote:So is Bayverse 'replacing' G1 in cultural reference?

Now, the point about the above quoted sentence regarding Bayverse. I mentioned before that whenever someone talks about Transformers with me and they don't specify the continuity, I revert to G1 automatically. However, if I talk to someone younger than me, I usually stop and check with them if they're indeed speaking of G1, or if they are talking about Bayverse, because it is the most popular (or at least well-known) facet of the franchise right now. So is Bayverse replacing G1, as you asked? My answer is I don't think so, but for a lot of people Bayverse is the starting out point, so for them that is the original continuity, and perhaps they view G1 as some ancient relic to be referenced once in a while.

Yes, context of the conversation is very much applicable in these cases, very much agreed. But I'll also add that I don't usually assume the people I talk about TFs to are necessary in the know of anything TF related - and when that is the case, Bayverse does indeed come up before any other incarnation, because it's more visible, I suppose.

It's an interesting development, really, that the current cultural referent is the live-action movies for a lot of hypercasuals (to use a ScottyPism). I don't find it just to be younger people, either.

(I mean, you'd have to go into the description of the different things to make any of it make sense: G1 is nothing like IDW (ymmv), which is nothing like the Bayverse, which is only vaguely related to any of the animated shows since Beast Wars. More like parallel lines with crossover in names only at the best. It's not an easy lore to convey to people who aren't in it, I feel.)

I think I can add more hypercasual fan encounter experience anecdotes:

• I have a Studio Ox pinup of Devastator in my cubicle at work. I have been asked multiple times which movie he's in, or had people see it and ask about the new movie.
• When the first promo art for TLK hit Times Square, folks were asking me who the dragon was. The temptation to be a turbo-nerd and say Flame Convoy was real.
• When I pull out my Transformers wallet, which has G1 box art on it (the Japanese variation of the '85 back-of-box art, no less!), 9/10 if the cashier makes a comment it is about the movies. Most recently, I was asked when the "fifth one is coming out?"

So to go back to:

Va'al wrote:So is Bayverse 'replacing' G1 in cultural reference?

Yes. Absolutely holy crap yes. You don't have to like it, but it is happening.

Oh hell yeah; when the average person on the street talks about Transformers, more than nine times out of ten it is going to be about the live-action movies. That's the most well-known incarnation and it's kind of a worldwide phenomenon whether people regard it as good or bad; that's just a simple fact. Sometimes you'll find someone who liked that tape dude from the 80s or has an old beaten up Beachcomber but when people talk about Transformers these days, it's gonna be about Michael Bay's excuse to make a billion explosions.

ScottyP wrote:So to go back to:

Va'al wrote:So is Bayverse 'replacing' G1 in cultural reference?

Yes. Absolutely holy crap yes. You don't have to like it, but it is happening.

Kurona wrote:when people talk about Transformers these days, it's gonna be about Michael Bay's excuse to make a billion explosions.

Bringing it back to the original question then: how does this (IDW replacing comics, Bayverse replacing pop culture, other stuff) affect your view of the classics? If at all, that is!

Well, I like the idea of Bumblebee having black stripes!

... that's about it.

Old story:


Many, many years ago (12ish to be exact...ish), around the time the first movie was announced and starting production, several of the more active members of this site and myself started a long running conversation on what the effect of the movie would be in the future.

We wondered if seibertron would be darn near over run with newer fans for whom G1 would mean nothing. For them, Transformers would mean Armada and the new movie stuff. We didn't think it would happen. We were wrong. We were very wrong.

I started this thread asking about IDW taking over, because that's what is happening to mean. I never even considered the effects of the movies, because I've come to hate them so much. You guys are right though, the movies are taking over. That really makes me sad, as I feel the movies represent the least of what the Transformer mythos have to offer. Sure, they are fun to watch with a bucket of popcorn, but they don't really leave an impact, or desire to watch again, and again. Kinda makes me sad. Sure, the movies may help fuel and fund the ability to make the generations and masterpiece line of toys, as well as the IDW comics, so I guess I'll have to hold on to that.

Back to my original point, I was never big into the Marvel comics, so the only story and characterization I got was from the cartoon. For when I was a little kid, that was fine, but now days I need more. IDW has provided that in spades, and that is why it has "taken over" from G1. While the original line will always be iconic to me, the rich world building that IDW was engaged in has replaced the original mythos for me.

you should not think of it sad. Think of it that the new series keeps the transformers idea alive to enjoy for years to come.

Also think of it along the lines of another long running series, I mean dr. who. Ask someone who is their favourite doctor, and often that will be the doctor they saw when they were introduced to the series. for my mum its the 1st doctor, for me it's the 4th, and for others its 9th,10th, 11th or 12th. You'll get people who see the next doctor not as theirs. But each one brings a differnt flavour to the overall series, its like ice cream. Lots of flavours, you are not expected to like all of them. some you favour more some you favour less.

Its not bad that the forums is crawling with armada lovers, or movie lovers. we are all ultimately transformers lovers, who has a entry series that brought us into the fold that made us love the series. We shouldn't try to insist to others that X character is better than the character of the same name from a different series because they are all a different take, a different style and ultimately the preference is subjective and very personal. An oddity for me is like ice cream... I don't like chocolate. I don't like mint... but for some odd reason I like chocolate mint icecream. But as soon as I say I don't like chocolate people get shocked at me. How can you NOT like it? I just don't. I can't explain it.

I admit I am not overly fond of the movies. I like it enough, but it won't be the big thing for me. I really dislike Energon. However I attempt to keep an open mind about new stuff. its interesting to see how things change and evolve. And one should not be ashamed if one series after their entry is deemed "better" by them. I mean I entered with Generation One, I hands down adore TFprime. Its either on par at least with my love of Gen 1. Gen 1 is nostalgic for me.

So in the end, you don't have to like the new series, they do not have to like the old series. What should matter between fans is we all like Transformers.

I wrote that badly. I did not mean to suggest younger/newer fans were wrong for not being G1 fans. Sorry about that.

Ironhidensh wrote:I wrote that badly. I did not mean to suggest younger/newer fans were wrong for not being G1 fans. Sorry about that.

sometimes a line of text is hard to get meaning across. Not a problem. But still... chocolate Meh. :p

Bumping this for visibility, since hopefully the podcast going up in an hour or so will get some folks headed over this way

Ok, so I will begin my statement by basically agreeing with Va'al on this topic... in a way.

So this is how my introduction came about: Family was watching a movie in 2007 and saw the trailer for the live action movie. Mom instantly saw Optimus and recognized it because she watched the show hyper-casually in the 80's. Only like parts of season 1 and 2. But she recognized the look and voice of Optimus. Fast forward: we watch the movie, I do really like it. I ask for some toys, I get some. TF Animated started at the same time and became basically my first cartoon that I watched regularly. taped the episodes (we didn't have DVR until maybe 2012) and watched it. Then came movie 2 and movie 3. enjoyed both, and animated finished up (still really love the series, one of my absolute favorites) and was succeeded by Prime. Favorite TF show. Loved it. Also throw in some G1 stuff around here cause I watched a few episodes on the Hub.

Then came coming to college, seeing the 4th movie, and starting into comics with Spotlight: Trailcutter and then jumping in full speed around Dark Cybertron. Bought all the IDW mainline comics and all of Regeneration 1. Also watched Beast wars and some Unicron trilogy, go catch up. Still no real RiD 2001 stuff, but that's a minor thing. And then RiD 2015 comes and the 5th movie comes, and here we are.

Now I tell you all that (and probably for not the first time) to get to this point: It all comes down to the generation. For me, I see the baseline character as the Movie, Prime, or IDW guy (occasionally animated) If you name someone and don't specify continuity, that is where my mind goes. I don't think the 80's cartoon. The only time my mind will automatically go somewhere pre-2007 is when you talk about a Beast Wars character.

So to me, it's not so much replacing G1 but more like it's where people are jumping on, and often times when someone jumps on they don't know a lot about the stuff that lead up to their jumping on point for years. I didn't watch my first G1 episode until 4 years after the first movie and I didn't watch the 86 movie until 2012 when we got our DVR. I don't think "G1" as my baseline because it never served as the baseline. I think movies and Prime first, with IDW and Beast wars filling in the holes.

So it's not replacing it on my level.

However, jumping back to the Densh's original question, in a way in your experience you could say that IDW has just become the norm so you think about it more and more as the baseline for your characters. G1 was 30 years ago, and while you can watch reruns, the stuff you watch now has superseded it in some ways because you are around it so much more. That's why I think IDW and Prime more instead of animated: animated finished, I was into prime for years, and then IDW has become my main fiction. So because I am around it much more frequently, that is what I think of when I think of a character.

So yeah, for some fans it is all about when you jumped on the train. And even then, even when you think about when you jumped on and how that forms your baseline, you can still come to change your mind slowly by finding something that you either like more, you think is far better made, or you spend so much time around something new that even if it is not your favorite, it still becomes your core thought.

D-Maximus_Prime wrote: TF Animated started at the same time and became basically my first cartoon that I watched regularly.

God damn but this made me feel old.

Just had to say that, carry on.

Coooould it be semantics, at this stage?

As much as I enjoy the complexity and depth that's been given to Optimus Prime's character, it's really difficult for me to not still see the idealistic hero I adored as a child.

I still can't get over him shooting Galvatron in the face, and that guy is crazy-evil! Although admittedly different than My Galvatron...
With Megatron and the Lost Lighters, I love where this is going -- in my head, I hear Frank Welker talking, but in a calmer (?!) tone.

As others have mentioned, IDW hasn't replaced the G1 characters in my heart, but rather expanded upon them. However, some of their new creations have also been wonderful additions.
Which also reminds me, they did a great job of fleshing out Roller!
I hate to say I'm not a fan of the Bayverse movies, but as Sunstar mentioned, exposure will keep the entire franchise alive. HasTak knows that the enthusiasts will always support Generations releases (if not all the incarnations!), so as long as they continue with this trend of varied products and lines, it's all good.