The Energon Pub

Rated X wrote:I’m just talking about the process of mold casting. You’re the one who dragged designers into this debate.

I don't know how many times I have to quote you here, but here it is again:

Rated X wrote:Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold

Yet somehow, I needlessly dragged designing into the debate? I've really said all I can about your original points... anything more is just beating a dead horse. I can't debate with someone who says the sky is red & when proved wrong, denies saying it or just tries to change the subject.

I think Gauntlet really summed up everything about the 3rd Party/KO debate in a much clearer/articulate/factual way than I could... so there's no real reason for me to expand upon it... he laid it all out & it makes perfect sense. These things (KO's and Third-party products) actually have clear definitions. Don't you suppose there's a reason you're alone in your debate?

I would also say that 3rd parties are legal whereas KOs are not.

Let's consider for one second the fashion industry (not that I'm a massive fan of it or anything)

Chanel make a new handbag which costs $5,000

A - A High Street retailer then 'homages' the designer bag by creating their own design which is similar enough to reflect the designer bag, but has enough differences (think it has to be 5?) that any claim by Chanel would not stand up in court.

B - At the same time, a Chinese manufacturer gets hold of the original handbag, and makes a facsimilie which may or may not be of inferior quality (the quality part is irrelevant) They even state that it is a Chanel handbag. If they are crafty, they may rearrange a letter or two.

Which of these two does Chanel go after, and which do they leave alone? That's right, B. Because Chanel have no case, or not a strong enough case, to prosecute the High Street designer. Legally, the guys homaging the original are doing nothing wrong. They are staying the right side of the law, even if you may question the moral validity of doing such.

Why do you think that Hasbro have thrown their toys out of the pram by refusing to attend conventions where 3rd parties are present? (Botcon etc) Because that is all they can do. What happened to KOtoys? Shut down, what happens to KO Transformers sold on eBay? The listings are either removed, or the seller is quickly shut down. Why? Because KOs are illegal. They are illegal because they are stealing a product, and profiting (way above what Hasbro would in most cases) from it.

Those of you short-sighted enough to rub your hands in glee because a KO is made available of a cool 3rd party product are fools - I'm sorry - you are . People who download music, films and video games are just as short sighted. We are rapidly approaching a tipping point, where there are not enough paying customers to cover costs. This is beacause peopel think nothing of theft these days, which is a shame. This is why already creativity in those spheres has plateaud, with small labels being swallowed up by the larger ones, who throw their profits back into bankable sequels and sure things.

Maybe those of you who are sooo excited by a 30-50% saving on Giant will only see the damage when there are no forthcoming KOs of great new 3rd Party products, because there will be no more 3rd party products. Hasbro can absorb this **** forever, they will always make cash from their target demographic. But if you want to hammer the nails into the coffin of Maketoys, then all power to ya. Just don't bitch when CHMS has to resort to KOing FOC Bruticus because that's about the coolest thing left.

Fact: Canada provides free government healthcare for all of it’s citizens. So they will not enforce American copyrights that would double the cost they have to shell out on prescription drugs.

This is one foolhardy notion. We're not China up here. The US is our biggest trading partner. We also have perscription drugs and, probably most relevantly, perscription strength drugs. Also, you seem to be under the impression that all perscription drugs are free up here. They aren't. If you're unemployed and not under health insurance they are far from free. Neither are your "KO drugs" that you can get over the counter. Just because we allow drugs up here that the FDA doesn't for you guys down there doesn't mean they're free and it doesn't make persciption stuff cheap. You know even less than I do about our pharmasutical industry and even less than you do about KO toys. Moreover, the discussion of drugs is not related to the discussion of knockoff toys.

I'm no expert on the pharmasutical industry of my country, but I know damn well that I pay for my perscriptuion drugs when I'm not covered under the health plan of my work.

But I hate when 3rd party advocates try to create different levels of theft by crucifying KO’s because they are not original molds. It’s the biggest form of sugarcoating to make the original molds seem more legit to 3rd party critics. It’s all the same s**t.

Firstly there are different levels of theft. Let's say some guy steals $100 from a store he works at. And compare him to someone who runs a $10,000 international fraud scheme. Same crime, different levels. You would never convict the guy who stole $100 for the same amount of time or the same fine as the guy who stole $10,000.

Secondly, it's not the same ****. However you feel about the morality of making 3rd party products or KOs, they are not the same thing. They are different in that they do not share the same definition in terms of this discussion. However you want to feel about the implied morality of the thing is irrelevent. They are just not understood to be the same thing.

Folks... People will still buy KOs no matter how this debate goes....

daimchoc wrote:Folks... People will still buy KOs no matter how this debate goes....

lol... this isn't some crusade or anything... just a discussion. Nothing wrong with a little interaction. Even I own a few KO's... despite being against the idea. The KO's I own though, I bought when the originals were rare & unavailable at retail... but honestly, I ended up disappointed anyway because they were crap quality. I'll be VERY interested to see how these KO's turn out... Giant's a hell of lot more complicated than any KO I've ever owned... and those were pitiful.

In case anyone's wondering, I own a KOLD Shattered Glass Prime... and the KO Commander trailer to go with it.... as well as a Powered Commander KO. All three are in my "awaiting eBay" pile...

Yeah, discussions are fine. Plus, the original point of contention was that Maketoy should team up with CHMS, not whether Kos are good or not.

For the most part my own posts have steered clear of the actual morality of KOs. Because, even while not going into that there's a difference between them and what we call "3rd party products". But, in general I'm not really fond of KOs, especially when they hurt the little guy. Call me crazy, but I sympathize with the hardcore fans who're trying to give the fandom soemthing cool and unique. Still, I have a number of KOs. Mostly Seekers.

The original point of contention for me was stating that 3rd parties and KOs are the same. In the universe I inhabit, this will never be the case. People should just be careful what they wish for, is all.

BTW China is down today @ 1% export rate.
I would bother to assume you're going to see a lot more KO'ing, and a lot more unlicensed goods popping up in eBay.

These guys were used to the gravy train, and it came off the tracks.




oh and KO's and 3rd parties are both violators of the Intellectual property, and trademark law. There's no difference.
If you think there is. then you think stealing from a bank, is different then stealing from a ATM.

RodimalToyota wrote:oh and KO's and 3rd parties are both violators of the Intellectual property, and trademark law. There's no difference.
If you think there is. then you think stealing from a bank, is different then stealing from a ATM.

Jeez, that argument stands up about as well as a KO Giant will.

Do Hasbro have the trademark on transforming figures? No. Do Hasbro have the trademark on Green construction vehicles? No. Do Hasbro have the trademark on combiners? No. Even with all of those elements in place, do Hasbro have a case? Evidently not, until they go and prove me wrong.

Do hasbro own copyright on their own moulds? Yes.

RodimalToyota wrote:oh and KO's and 3rd parties are both violators of the Intellectual property, and trademark law. There's no difference.
If you think there is. then you think stealing from a bank, is different then stealing from a ATM.

If that's all you're looking at, then no. No difference.

Of course you can lump Hasbro in there too for Kreo and the way it takes "inspiration" from real life cars.

I think someone on TFW came up with this conspiracy theory, but what if it was Hasbro that was KOing Maketoys ****? I don't think it is...but that would be the perfect way for them to get even. Hasbro can't do anything about IP in China...well, you can't do anything about KOs in China either, so eat it 3rd Party!

Kibble wrote:I think someone on TFW came up with this conspiracy theory, but what if it was Hasbro that was KOing Maketoys ****? I don't think it is...but that would be the perfect way for them to get even. Hasbro can't do anything about IP in China...well, you can't do anything about KOs in China either, so eat it 3rd Party!

Yeah, the Hasbro CEO is probably Megatron.

Mekatron wrote:

Rated X wrote:I’m just talking about the process of mold casting. You’re the one who dragged designers into this debate.

I don't know how many times I have to quote you here, but here it is again:

Rated X wrote:Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold

Yet somehow, I needlessly dragged designing into the debate? I've really said all I can about your original points... anything more is just beating a dead horse. I can't debate with someone who says the sky is red & when proved wrong, denies saying it or just tries to change the subject.

I think Gauntlet really summed up everything about the 3rd Party/KO debate in a much clearer/articulate/factual way than I could... so there's no real reason for me to expand upon it... he laid it all out & it makes perfect sense. These things (KO's and Third-party products) actually have clear definitions. Don't you suppose there's a reason you're alone in your debate?

I’m not going to drag this out today but when I said this:

Rated X wrote:Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold

I was referring to “designing” the MOLD from a complete figure, whether it be a hand carved prototype or a Hasbro figure right out of the box. You were the one who brought in the process of designing the figure being molded.

Once again from the first post I was referring to the MOLDING PROCESS since we are talking about molding figures and if CHMS could give Maketoys a better price that can in turn be passed down to the customer.

If you don’t get my point by now, you must be lost on Mars where the sky is red.

In the spirit of discussion:


Mars is sorta brown.

craggy wrote:In the spirit of discussion:


Mars is sorta brown.

and the sky is greyish white.

Going back to the topic- Are there any reports yet regarding quality control for Green Giant? Have all of the issues from yellow been corrected?

Banjo-Tron wrote:

craggy wrote:In the spirit of discussion:


Mars is sorta brown.

and the sky is greyish white.

The lateral area square of a quadriplegic bundt cake is reverse Batman.

Check. Mate.

NOS wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:

craggy wrote:In the spirit of discussion:


Mars is sorta brown.

and the sky is greyish white.

The lateral area square of a quadriplegic bundt cake is reverse Batman.

Check. Mate.

so have you ever imagined what it would be like to be a purple and blue ruffled giant pigmy giraffe that is allergic to spleens?

njb902 wrote:

NOS wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:

craggy wrote:In the spirit of discussion:


Mars is sorta brown.

and the sky is greyish white.

The lateral area square of a quadriplegic bundt cake is reverse Batman.

Check. Mate.

so have you ever imagined what it would be like to be a purple and blue ruffled giant pigmy giraffe that is allergic to spleens?

...Mars is sorta brown.

Topic.

Back onto it.

Burn wrote:Topic.

Back onto it.

So... any actual news about this KO coming out anytime soon as I have just trawled through pages of crap talking about Giraffes and the planet Mars!

GIVE ME KO MAKETOYS GIANT

It's out now.

Stormrider wrote:It's out now.

The Taobao auction site says October-November release.

any news on this yet?