Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Third-party merchandise…let’s face it, has become a real trend over the past year and a half. It used to be that third-party products were a novelty, something that was interesting, catered to a niche market, and was a small distraction.

But now, third-party merchandise has entered into the collecting discussion in new and interesting ways. Some of the items have become ‘must-haves’, essential pieces of a collection, i.e. “City Commander”. Other items are ‘filling in gaps’ or “correcting” sad situations. The Animated AllSpark and Superion Appendage kit are examples of this.

Rounding out the trend, we have reproduction pieces or as they were known prior to third-party items being in vogue, ‘bootleg merchandise’. Mini-Masterpiece Optimus Prime, various trailers, and rollers are examples of this.

Now we have the impending savage debate to deal with…

What legitimacy do these products have for collectors?

Do the concerns of/risks to Hasbro and their property rights have any effect on you or your purchases?

Where do you draw the line? Is there a line to be drawn?

Now, I know for certain that we have varied and strong opinions on the matter here. I want to hear it all.

Consider this to be a very open debate…

The absolute rule here is to respect the person you are addressing. Any personal insults, even backhanded little jabs will probably result in your post being erased and a warning issued…

However…opinions on the matter are all suspect. Feel free to press an unfounded opinion to the point of breaking so long as you keep it on topic.

Lastly, as your news source, we want to know how these products should be addressed both as news and as relevant topics. Are third-party products something that betray the consumer relationship between Has/Tak, Transformers, and the fans? Are we as a news source obligated to defend that relationship in any regard?

Let’s have it all, the good and the bad, especially the ugly.

If I like it, and it'll fit with my neo-G1 collection, then I'll buy it. If I don't like it, then I don't buy it.

That goes to products that Hasbro, Takara or the 3rd parties make.

Legalities don't concern me because Hasbro's responsible for enforcement, and they haven't done so yet, which is about the same as a cop watching people take money from an open bank vault and not doing a thing.

I've bought City and Shadow Commander, the Aerial Team add-on, G3 Trailer, and I've got the City Commander Upgrade kit (FP's not IGear's). So far I've been impressed with FansProject's quality. I agree the Powered/DIA fiasco was unfortunately, but I still think FP is the clear leader in the 3rd party game. I've always wanted the Unicron.com stuff, and I wouldn't mind a set of Energon Cubes.

That said, everything I've bought is an add-on or accessory that enhances an official product I've already paid good money for. I'm nervous about full-fledged figures from FP because I think it will bring the wrath of Hasbro and Takara/Tomy that much sooner. Things like the mini Masterpiece OP are definitely over the line. They are absolutely trademark infringements. So far, FansProject has been very careful to use generic terms like "Protector", "City Commander", etc.

Now, onto a tangential topic. I think no matter what, this stuff is News. A large number of members are interested in this stuff. We just need to remain non-biased in our news reporting, and ensure that we aren't endorsing third party stuff, but it would a shame to not report it at all.

The driving factor in my opinion on this matter is simply profitability. While we are all collectors here, and surely Hasbro and the designers responsible for these toys surely value quality and accuracy, and delivering everything a dedicated fan would want... most times its simply not possible. Products have to be economical to be manufactured, packaged, sold etc. Premium products for niche' collectors are not where the money is at, and if they are not looking to make money on these things then they are ONLY annoying their hardcore fan base by policing the creation of them.

The line will be crossed when business begins to get taken away from hasbro. So far this has not been the case. In fact, they have probably gained slightly more attention on many of their products simply because of the add-on's for them. Surely its a single drop in a water tower sized bucket, but if its not taking away from them then I can see why they would let it slide. Also, policing small knock off shops in China who distribute through overseas vendor's isn't really the easiest thing to do.

The fact remains that in almost all cases, if Hasbro chooses to do a similar project to a 3rd party company, most every collector will purchase that as well. They are usually of better quality, come packaged and able to be kept MIB, and are just truer versions of things we all want.

So many people were clamoring about the Cyclonus and Powerglide toys from Jizzai. Then we get nice universe versions and I guarantee almost everyone owns those as well, or instead of the hard to deal with Jizzai ones. I simply do not believe that there is any threat to Hasbro/Takara at this time, and they would just be hurting their most dedicated fanbase by making a big stink.

I can see how there would probably be many designers there that have great ideas for G1 characters for a universe/classics line. But those designs are probably too costly to flesh out and make, and thus are destined to live in a sketchbook.

Even if a company knocks off say... Springer. Unless Hasbro was going to make a version, who cares? I know I would buy any true Hasbro effort of a classics springer, even if I already owned a pricier version from say... FP.

my .02$


Also, I collect to flesh out in my mind what I want from a toy collection representing all the characters across all toy series that I enjoy. If I need to recreate a legitament G1 Galvatron myself, someday i will have something that can stand in for him and not wish it were much different.

I definitely support certain 3rd party merchandise. Simply put, a copy/knock off/counterfeit product is not something I support, no matter the quality(though most are sub standard), because it's a copy of something that exists and generally serves as a cheaper alternative that competes with existing products.

I do support 3rd party products such as the various Commander sets by FansProject because they do not replicate existing designs. The Commander design is based on the concept of Diaclone Powered Convoy/Ultra Magnus, however, the design itself is unique. The main connection between City/Shadow/Powered/D.I.A Powered Commander and Diaclone Powered Convoy/Ultra Magnus is that they both are "trailers" for an Optimus Prime/Convoy/Ultra Magnus/Nemesis Prime, which serve as modular armour for those base Hasbro/Takara figures. The Aerial Team Appendage kit is a similar add on in that it is modular armour/appendages to add onto the Aerial Team/Aerialbot sets.

When you get down to the basic issue, it's about violating copyright law and intellectual property laws. All 3rd party products violate those laws to varying degree. However, I think we should view 3rd party products on an individual basis rather than as a single entity because there are varying types of 3rd party products available. This is important because we should consider both the letter of the law and the intent of the law, which do not always mutually exist in present laws. We should consider the possible impact of specific types of 3rd party products on the current market and with that measure, be able to fairly judge the product's presence.

I believe that a copy of an existing toy design is inherently harmful to the business of a company while a 3rd party product that may violate IP law by involving a concept like "transforming toys" does not necessarily pose a threat to the same company if they do not compete against a product.

It could be argued that products such as the various Commander sets are benign unless Hasbro and/or Takara produce their own equivalent to modular armour accessories that can take form of a trailer for the Classics Optimus Prime figure and its repaints. This is because, currently, the Commander sets have no official product to compete against and take sales away from Hasbro and Takara.

It could also be argued that products such as the Commander and Aerial Team Appendage kits increase demand for official Transformers products at the very least within the collector and enthusiast community. These 3rd party products cannot function fully without an official product to serve as the core. The purpose of these 3rd party products is not to replace existing products of official manufacture but to enhance the value of existing products of official manufacture.

As a collector and enthusiast, I choose 3rd party products that serve a function that I am unable to find in official Hasbro/Takara products in the market. I do not feel like I'm betraying the main brands nor do I feel like this is a way to shirk guilt for I feel none. It can be as simple as if a company wants my business, a company should produce a product or service that I desire. That's a basic principle of good business.

With respect to knock offs/copies/counterfeits, it's not a moral issue for me but a quality assurance issue. I have a level of expectation that can be met by an official product or a 3rd party product that comes from a producer that has proven its level of quality in the past. The principle behind the counterfeit market is to get as much profit by doing as little work/providing as little quality. What I desire can only be gained from Hasbro/Takara and certain 3rd part producers, none of which create counterfeits so far.

As a news source, I think seibertron.com should report Transformers related news. However, I support any decision to manage news as long as the access to the information is implemented in a reasonable fashion for site navigation and their location is clearly indicated.

I can't speak from experience, but I too would draw a line original creations like City Commander, including derived designs like the WST Dinorobots, and plain rip-offs like the upsized G1 Trailer for MP Prime and his upcoming Mini-Me.

But another thing is indeed of concern: law enforcement. While I agree that Hasbro should be more active in prosecuting copyright infringement, part of that responsibility lies with us as well. Now, I'm not saying we all should boycot anything that's a bootleg or knock-off (I know some people will still do regardless), but at least try and educate the fanbase on what's acceptable as a legal product and what's not, and leave the choice of the purchase to fans. We're only informing them, not encouraging them of anything.

Putting it in the news is a definite must for that, as an educated fan is an empowered one. Simply put, putting in a separate category is the best thing to do, with a constant reminder that they're not official and possibly even illegal.

I'm on the fence on third party products in general. I take every announce product or idea with a grain of salt. Fansproject came out strong with the City Commander concept and really earned their stripes with the finished product. They are painfully careful not to step on HasTak's toes or do anything too close to something they'd do. HasTak had no interest in armor for Mangnus of Rodimus, announced that they have no intention to make any more Optimus trailers (to the point of dropping the concept entirely from the character) and we can have our Springer in 2 flavors, land vehicle or helicoptor. Fansproject is trying to fill the gaps in our collections not replace them. All of their products so far are supplements to what is already officially availible. I actually consider their products more "official" than the Music/Device Label or most of the FunPub sets.
I can't really judge iGear the same way because they haven't released anything yet! Seriously, they've announced a dozen things and we haven't seen product one. But what we have seen is a mixed bag from the interesting (the Ark playset) to the criminal (Sharkticons and Mini MP Optimus.)

>Going out to dinner now I'll finish my post later<
>Back now, I had strawberry pancakes! <

So yeah, Fansprojects has earned my respectwith their products so far, iGear seems to be all flash and no substance. And I really don't like the straight up rip offs like the mini MP and Sharkticons. The two things they had put out are unnecessary: the Autoscout (seriously, this thing needed two third party versions?) and the Grimlock crown set which is now trumped by the MP-08X. iGear just doesn't seem to have anything other than the Ark & Nemesis sets worth getting. In fact, the Mini MP seems to be made for them not for any real need. After all we have MP Optimus in 12" and 4" versions (Robotmasters & the Classics OP/Megs 2 Pack) so the need for an 8" one seems to be minimal. And don't get me started on other companies City Commander "upgrade" sets. Hitching on to another third party's success just rubs me the wrong way.
TFC's Masterpiece Rollar is awesome (see my sig for mine on auction!) and MP Starscream cape & crown set is the most necessary Masterpiece upgrade yet, edging out the Megatron stock & silencer by JustiToys. From what I've been told, JustiToys MP-01 trailer is passable and I still can't find a reason for iGear to make one for twice as much, especially since the MP-04 was released a few years ago!
Unicron.com makes good stuff like the
Natobots Roabbuster upgrade and the custom Orion Pax head (I got from some random guy making a dozen of them in his house) are the definition of the classic garage kit. One guy in his spare time pouring his love into this little piece of plastic and making it availible to those who would appreciate it!
In summation: Third party products are of interest to Transformers fans. Botcon and TFCon (both sponsored by Hasbro) have had a Unicron.com Vector Sigma and FansProject Diaclone Commander respectively. So there is a presidence with Hasbro being cool with outside products that aren't straight rip offs of theirs. Fans want them, Hasbro can't make them, third parties do, everybody wins! You can't tell me that at least one member of the Hasbro design team doesn't have City Commander on his desk in Hasbro's corporate headquarters in Rhode Island. And where do you draw the line with what is a third party product? Are Reprolabels? They make both copies of authentic and original designs and label upgrades (I am the proud owner of a Wheelimus Prime!)
I think third party products are definately newsworthy. They may not all be good, but somebody out there wanted it and they want to hear about it! Does every new picture need to be a news update? No, I think one fact thread per item is good enough. And I hate when some random guy photoshops color on a picture of a prototype and it's treated like news.
Third parties are a bubble right now and someday that bubble is going to burst. I just hope a couple of the better ones survive it. And Hasbro doesn't put a pin to it too soon!

>POP<

I have a ton of bullet points on how I feel about this topic.. but for the interests of this thread I am going to narrow down to just 5..

1. I don't care if an item is from Hasbro/Takara, or a 3rd party, if it is something I want I will buy it.

2. I don't care if this is a violation of Hasbro or Takara's Property rights, as MKALL has said, it is their problem to police this and not my concern.

3. Do I draw a line on what 3rd party companies produce? nope sure don't, refer to number 2..

4. should this be a part of the regular news cycle on seibertron.com? My view is yes, and to hide or suppress this because of the idea that we are somehow demeaning Hasbro or Takara is foolish in my view.. We are a news and fan site and not an arm or wing of Hasbro/Takara Tomy.. and I think that those toy companies are pretty big by themselves, then to have us have to protect them..

5. I don't again, see an issue with the third party market, they are usually sold online, and not in Wal-Marts or other main stream department stores.. they are produced a half a world away, and to me, make collecting Transformers a more enhanced and fan driven hobby ever more so then before.. as the great robot inventor Bigweld once said "see a need, fill a need!" that is what these 3rd party companies do, and I am down with that!

FACT: City Commander is a dream come true (thank you Fansproject).

FACT: City Commander accessories by fan groups other than Fansproject are highly dubious.

I'm really torn on this issue, actually. In my day job (yeah, I actually have one) I am the inflexible Enforcer of Intellectual Property Rights. Thou shalt not plagiarize. Thou shalt respect copyright. So I totally understand intellectual property.

On the other hand, I write fanfic, which is a shameless violation, if not outright abuse, of intellectual property rights. I'm sure Hasbro would have a screaming aneurism if they ever read my stuff.

BUUUUUUT (yeah, I'm actually getting to the toys part)--both fanfic and third party toys show there is a huge fanbase that is sustainable over a long term, even during the holes or dry spells when Hasbro doesn't have a show or movie to promote their toys. That actually all works out to Hasbro's *good*, which is why I think they don't police it as much as some of you think they ought. Think of the stuff as 'free publicity'.

Additionally, I don't think it's ever a HUGE market share, these third party things. They're for *collectors*, and most collectors I imagine will not have to choose either the Hasbro OR the 3rd party version of a toy--they'd most likely get *both* versions. Hasbro loses no money that way. As someone (smart) already said, these third party things aren't exactly Walmart available--Hasbro still owns the brick and mortar store shelves, which is where I imagine MOST of their profits come from.

In short, Hasbro loses nothing. And I think they rather gain--writers of fanfic, cosplayers, TF Mosaic writers and illustrators, makers of third party toys--everyone who is playing fast and loose with copyright--these are all people who get to be creative and feel like they're engaged in the fandom. That leads to a better relationship with Hasbro than if they suddenly went all enforcement nazi on us. Think of it--if they started suing the crap out of us the way the music industry has started nailing people for pirating and downloads--we'd probably not like Hasbro so much.

HK, my random thoughts.

IMHO, the biggest "grey area" are complete figures for characters that either have never had a figure (such as G1 Arcee), or whose figure arguably does not do the character justice (the upcoming "Springer" figure from the makers of City Commander, among others).

Convotron wrote:I definitely support certain 3rd party merchandise. Simply put, a copy/knock off/counterfeit product is not something I support, no matter the quality(though most are sub standard), because it's a copy of something that exists and generally serves as a cheaper alternative that competes with existing products.

What about for products that are no longer available? Overall I'm against them because they're usually garbage and it sucks when you can't tell them apart and pay the going rate of the orginal...but if the real one is no longer available and there's still a market that the original company isn't fulfilling and people aren't getting screwed over in the process, I might be able to be convinced it's not the worst thing.

As far as I'm concerned, "third party" is not the same as "knock off". To me, a third party product (fans project stuff) is at least a little more legit than the KO's manufactured in China.

The above posts have already given very good answers about why Hasbro doesn't go after third party companies, so I won't dwell on them.

But I'll say this much. While I'm not defending KO's, I think counterfeit products attack a vastly different market than Hasbro's. Chinese KO's are usually marketed locally, aiming for children from poorer families who'd never be able to afford a Hasbro figure, much less Takara. Even if KO's ceased to exist, Has/Tak isn't going to make any money out of them.

On another matter, I think there's more love between Hasbro and third party companies, compared to Hollywood and bootleg movie sites. It's more like a symbiotic bird-and-wildebeest relationship: the bird gets a free ride and get to feast on the bugs off the wildebeest's back, and the wildebeest doesn't have to itch from all the fleas and ticks (sorry for the Animal Planet analogy). Both stand to gain something; Hasbro gets consumers to buy imperfect figures because the add-ons from third party companies rectifies them (i.e. Superion appendages), and said companies get to make a living off of the TF franchise.

Win-win.

Now this one is slightly off-topic, but as a consumer, I won't complain about third party companies taking away Hasbro's motivation to create better figures. Because it doesn't make a difference. If Hasbro allows a bigger budget to make better toys, its price point will go up accordingly. Take the movie line for instance; the ROTF line figs boast clear plastic headlights, better quality plastic, and more detailed, screen-accurate head sculpts...with a bigger number on the price tag.

Having said all that, I do have a slight problem with buying third party figures. While I'd gladly purchase "add-ons" such as weapons, appendage upgrades and such from third party companies, I just feel that a figure that doesn't come from Hasbro or Takara loses its authenticity.

Still, that won't be enough to stop me from buying a figure like the upcoming G1 Arcee from Impossible(?) Toys. Basically, it depends on how much I like that figure, that it overcomes my peeve about authenticity.

Kibble wrote:

Convotron wrote:I definitely support certain 3rd party merchandise. Simply put, a copy/knock off/counterfeit product is not something I support, no matter the quality(though most are sub standard), because it's a copy of something that exists and generally serves as a cheaper alternative that competes with existing products.

What about for products that are no longer available? Overall I'm against them because they're usually garbage and it sucks when you can't tell them apart and pay the going rate of the orginal...but if the real one is no longer available and there's still a market that the original company isn't fulfilling and people aren't getting screwed over in the process, I might be able to be convinced it's not the worst thing.

Yes, definitely, for products that are no longer available or basically no longer being produced, I'm fine with 3rd party products that can fulfill the "original's" function. This is because the item is not in current production and is not something that the 3rd party item competes against. Also, the original item will very difficult to find and may not even be complete or in decent condition.

I don't find any fault in a 3rd party product today serving the function of a retired product from 10 years ago, for example. If Hasbro or Takara isn't able to provide what I need for my collection, I turn to the 3rd party marketplace. The main brands didn't execute plans for making a trailer of some sort for the Classics Optimus Prime mold so I think the G3 trailer is fine because it doesn't have an officially produced equivalent in the Classics line. The same goes for City/Shadow/Powered/D.I.A. Powered Commander and the Aerial Team Appendage kit. They all provide a function that doesn't exist in the official product line at this time.

Legally, my reasoning is flawed due to intellectual property violation but morally, I have no problems with it. This is why I consider both the technical aspects of law as well as the intent of the established law and this is why I don't group all 3rd party products in the same boat.

Here's my two cents about it all.

We were given a taste of a neo G1 with the release of the '06/07 Classics line. We got a very nice classics Prime, and no trailer. We got Ultra Magnus that was a white repaint of Optimus Prime. Fans Project decided to make a trailer upgrade, and now the price of Ultra Magnus has gone through the roof.

I look at Fans Project as the answer to what Hasbro does not want to do. You really can't use the Fans Project's items without the HAsbro counterpart to go with it. Another thing is Hasbro has stopped making any of the Optimus/Ultra/Nemmy primes anyway, if you don't have them, your getting it from a third party or ebay now.

I like FP, and maybe some of Igear...but they seem to have Has/Tak in mind when they make these toys.

For the sake of argument, if Hasbro had done similar add-ons, but in limited release, then I could see a problem. Bandai does resin add-ons or modulars for existing Gundam models kits. Some other companies do resin Gundam models, but most of the modulars come from B-Club, which I forgot to mention is a subsidiary of Bandai.

Since Hasbro has said f--k you to anything extra to add to your toys, I don't see anything wrong with these third party add-ons.

I don't like KO's or anything related to making an exact duplicate in a different size, to me that's still a KO. No matter the quality, it's still a KO.

We have yet to see if the release of the Mini MP Prime may bring out the beast in Has/Tak, but we will see.....

If HasTak is smart, they should take Fans Project under their wing, work with them to make these add-ons of thier existing product official.

When I grew up, tf toys without rub signs, Like kos or bootlegs, are not cool. Well rub signs are long gone, But paying for something without has/tak stamps just doesn't interest me. Therefore I stayed away from 3rd party kits.
I am not against the $2-$3 kos in dollar stores, I think those might be great for kids. But $80-$100 mini or over size 3rd party kos are rip offs if you ask me.

seriously I think to look at the Knock off market and 3rd party as two separate entities is silly..

why delineate between the two? there is no reason in my mind for it..

the fact that these Knock offs and add ons are coming out in such quality is what makes this discussion more intense then it really should be..I mean Transformers KO's have been around for years.. so what makes these newer versions so much of a threat..

quality, and popularity...

so, this debate in my view, is just silly.. KO's will always be there.. and there will always be a need for some third party to fulfill a dream that other fans wish to have so desperately, when even those ideas and wants and dreams fall on the deaf ears of Hasbro/Takara Tomy..

do any of us believe we would have gotten any kind of trailer for classics Optimus Prime? I don't think that the Big 2 would have even considered it no matter how much fan cry there was..

A mini Masterpiece Mini Optimus Prime? a straight Up Knock off, yeah so, what of it! I'm gonna buy one, because I love prime and to have one that fits the scale better and is in entirely made of Plastic means no rust..is it official, no..does that matter to me, no..

it's the character that matters.. if it is of high quality and fulfills a wish i have, then I buy it..

will this trend destroy the franchise..

In my view, no.. there have been professional grade KO's of all kinds of "intellectual properties" for years..

some knock offs are great for the poor people who want to get their kids a transformer, when a richer kid down the street has one..the fan market needs their dreams fulfilled and Hasbro/Takara still get theirs so..I don't see a problem..

Convotron wrote:I definitely support certain 3rd party merchandise. Simply put, a copy/knock off/counterfeit product is not something I support, no matter the quality(though most are sub standard), because it's a copy of something that exists and generally serves as a cheaper alternative that competes with existing products.

Exactly my view.

The existing cheap knockoffs that produce a product that directly competes with something Hasbro is currently producing is where I draw the line.

The knockoff thread has lots of examples of knockoffs that you can't help but laugh at. But there are others that can be potentially mistaken as the real deal That's where the 3rd party idea goes down the drain.

Its one thing to take an idea and expand upon it giving due credit, and another to just rip it off and pass it off at the original.

FansProject's trailers, the Superion Kit, even the Roadbuster weapon set provide accessories that neither Hasbro or Takara would likely produce, and credit the source by of course making you buy or already own the figure they are designed for.

You can just go out and buy a Superion add-on set and use it. You need to own some version of the official Hasbro product that its intended for.

On the other hand blatant knockoffs that are meant to be passed off as the real deal but are of lower quality and only aim to trick an unsuspecting buyer into a scam are the bane of most of us.

Look at G1 Wheeljack, Mirage even Prime. You look for an original and think you found one only to discover its a knockoff. Additionally they are almost always above the price you would pay if Hasbro or Takara were to produce it.

The real discussion is when 3rd party producers start making full fledged Transformers.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the design, transformation and look of a character is still property of the creator.

So where does that leave Fans Project Springer and the other figures they where making?

therein lies the issue with 3rd party or even some KO's: there is demand for products that aren't being met by the "makers"...

I thought we had a Knockoff thread already?

Third party items related to Transformers are a violation of the Transformers brand and gives Hasbro no real incentive to make their own version of something. I mean, given the chance, Hasbro will make something way better than these Knock-Off company for less money. Case in point, Universe Cyclonus, much better than the Garage Kit, and less money.

So if you don't want Hasbro to come out with cool stuff and you want to risk diluting the Transformers brand into just another boring product, then continue to buy these knockoffs. I mean if we look at the stuff Hasbro has made, they more than not listen to the fans.

Third party products, to me, are not ever going to be part of my official collection. By official I mean Hasbro/Takara official Transformers. It's not about the legality issues, even quality issues. It's the simple fact that these items cost big bucks ($100 for a trailer might not be big bucks to some, but for me $100 is HUGE) and they aren't "real" Transformers brand name products. For those two reasons alone I'll never buy the city commander armor or anything else these companies produce. Look at that mini MP Prime. $100 for a knockoff. It's ridiculous to me that anyone in their right mind would waste money on a bootleg when you can get the full size original official product for that.

Now, I'm of a totally different mind on the cheap bootlegs you can get at a place like Big Lots stores. Every Christmas season I go there and pick up something cheap, like the funky $8 combiner made out of really cheap versions of cybertron starscreams and vector prime. These I can take apart, repaint (like a model), and sit it by my computer for a few months till I get something new and toss them away. these aren't meant to actually fit into an official TF collection. These aren't meant to even look official, mesh with other official products, or cost $100 or more. There's a difference between cheap knock-offs and products trying to be official.

I actually think Hasbro should go after these third party companies like the ones making the mini mp prime, and the city commander makers, and sue their butts off.

IMHO I won't buy KO's if the original is available.Case in point Encore Metroplex, I got one because it was available. Ko manufacturers who attempted to sell 'em by jumping the gun on Takara got severely burned and tried to sell it in Encore boxes. Now that's bad! But it is a good example of if the item is available, people/fans will buy it. (Please clarify if Encore Metroplex are shelf fillers because here in SEA, all sold out (calling on our Japan based members to confirm the state of Encore Metroplex).

3rd party merchandise on the other hand......... depends on the quality of the manufacturer. I have the following 3rd party stuff:

1, City Commander by FP
2. Gas can ion rifle by FP
3. G3 Trailer by FP
4. Crossfire Superion upgrade by FP (see the pattern)
5. TFC EX-002 Roller
6. TFC Starscream Crown
7. Best toys Ironhide and Ratchet head
8. Reprolabels

I got a majority of FP products partly because of the initial hype (CC in particular and my wanting to have a fully "armored UM and not a lazy re-paint........really lazy if you ask me by taking look at the initial proto pics)but the company really DELIVERED! FP kind of became a standard in quality among the 3rd party makers. Same with their other products, okay I missed out on CJ (their first product IIRC) but over all, I am extremely thankful that people like their group exist. The Battle Rollar was kind of average, on a scale of 5, I'd give it a 3 while CC I'll give 4.8.

The MP Starscream crown set though good, had somewhat ugly gold paint apps. Maybe if they tried chrome. I'd give it a 3.5 out of 5.

Besttoys, also helped fill the gap of the headless IH and Ratchet. The half @ssed attempts by Takara to use cardboard face is just so lame!

Reprolabels. Not only do their products help restore the faded decals, their creative designs on anime based upgrades really add an extra sparkle to the figs. Ultra Magnus in particular in conjunction with the City Commander set by FP. Though not perfect but the upgrade helped restore the default white "Convoy" into a separate entity with the decals that simulated the initial proto pics on the box. I give their CC upgrade label a 4.8 (I'd have made it a 5 but because a portion of the decal adhered to each other when folded into a each other in the BFG mode (maybe they should have used a different type of media for the decal.)

As a whole, it really is the best time to be a TF collector (G1 and Classic wise) though albeit an expensive one at that

@ abraxis, though I respect your opinion, I disagree with you in nearly all points except the i-Gear MP Prime. That item is like a walking copyright infingement suit invitation.Hasbro and takara will have a field day with this. Not sure about the Heart of Steel Convoy though if the steam engine design was Tmed by HasTak.

The iGear fig is kind of like pushing the envelop, but on another side, if THS-02 was made it's size.......now that would be the Best looking,functional Convoy of all (if Takara'll fix the vehicle mode)

Third party items related to Transformers are a violation of the Transformers brand and gives Hasbro no real incentive to make their own version of something.

this statement is completely contradicted by the next statement below..

I mean, given the chance, Hasbro will make something way better than these Knock-Off company for less money. Case in point, Universe Cyclonus, much better than the Garage Kit, and less money.

the fact that a garage kit was released before the Hasbro figure just shows that even with 3rd party merchandise out there, Hasbro will make their version regardless...

So if you don't want Hasbro to come out with cool stuff and you want to risk diluting the Transformers brand into just another boring product, then continue to buy these knockoffs.

Intellectual Property rights are one thing, but I don't think that the City Commander trailer set is a knock off of anything made by Hasbro or Takara..Fan's Project made that kit and was very original about how the design was implemented.. If anything these 3rd party products have made the classics series more exciting for me as a collector..Ultra Magnus was a Boring classics action figure..that was before the FP city commander trailer..

I mean if we look at the stuff Hasbro has made, they more than not listen to the fans.

yeah this is true.. but I am so glad that the 3rd party market exists.. because we would never have gotten the Powered commander set, and the G3 trailer which turns my Henkei Optimus Prime into this badass set up..

I would draw a very clear line with 3rd party merchandise...

There is the merchandise which clearly violates an established and sellable product...for instance mini-MP Convoy. This garbage is detestable. (Takara actually has the ability and influence to do something about it if they choose to...)

Then there is the merchandise such as the City Commander armor, Superion kit, and to a lesser extent the G3 trailer. In regards to these things, I would reference this:

damnum absque injuria (Latin for "loss without injury") is a phrase expressing the principle of tort law in which some person (natural or legal) causes damage or loss to another, but does not injure them, and thus the latter has no legal remedy.
-summary from wikipedia as it's actually a good summary...

For merchandise that is clearly without a licensed peer from Has/Tak...too bad. They essentially had their chance to stake a legal claim to the product and chose not to.

Add-on kits, product extensions and merchandise options which have clearly been passed over for one reason or another appear to fall under this loss without injury clause. Now, if Hasbro or Takara had made a Classics Magnus, Prime Trailer, or improved Superion or could show plans to...that would be different.

It's clearly not my job to enforce or discriminate in favor of Hasbro's intellectual property rights; though in many cases I don't think those rights extend to umbrella EVERYTHING that has corollary to Transformers. I support Hasbro and Takara plenty by buying massive amounts of their merchandise. That being said...I don't owe them anything nor do I owe them some kind of purchase driven monogamy.

Innovation and addition to existing product should be celebrated or the talent should be captured and redirected. Direct property rights infringements such as KOs and direct reproductions should be crucified at the legal cross. In the end though, that's the job of mega-corporations who hire legal teams that speak three languages and bill more hours per week than actually exist in that week. It is not the job of me or you to police IP rights of companies.

Loyalty is ultimately cast one vote at a time with paper currency, everything else is ridiculous in the same fanboy way that people argue over which next-gen system is better.

For the record, the PS3 is better.