Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Blurrz » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:26 am

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Well it's her choice, right? If she wants to flaunt it then..

....


****. We're talking about Transformers?!?

As others have stated I'm fine with it as long as it isn't lazy. Hide the actual chest in robot mode so I don't see it anywhere else and we're good. Like, MP Cheetor is a good one. With the best designers in the business and biggest budget around, they still couldn't even figure a way to make Cheetor's real head be the chest in robot mode.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:27 am

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I got the black version of Weaponiser Bee. The one with a new head and who talk. It's a great toy and a great representation of when Prime Bee finally got rid of his Bayverse influence.

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The unpainted faux-wheels are still ridiculous, but because of the overall dark color scheme, they are somewhat less obvious and blend in better.
It's still a very weird design choice though.

----------------

Oh, and speaking of faux-chest, the earliest example I can come up with is Powermaster Optimus prime. The original G1 toy.
Image
Transformers G1 1988 Optimus Prime (Ginrai) Gallery
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Transformers G1 1988 Optimus Prime (Ginrai) Gallery

I always found that it was an odd design choice.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby WreckerJack » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:24 pm

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Weapon: Arc-Welders
I prefer whatever looks better on the figure. Some things look better real, sometimes the chests have to be fake because it would not be possible otherwise. It's either costly do add more points of articulation, proportion can be an issue and/or may make the figure too flimsy. (Or downright impossible due to the position of transformation.)

Take TFP Ratchet for example. He has a "fake chest" but that is due to his transformation. Kind of hard to get the doors from one side of his body to the other.

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See if you look at this pic below, you will notice the cab of the ambulance is more down twards his legs (which are the most fiddly part of his transformation) the actual door is where his calves are, not his chest.

Image

We can also see that from the bottom of the figure that, the doors are kind of positioned by the chest so perhaps with some alternate engineering it might have been possible. However, I do believe the use of a false chest is mostly a size issue. The doors from the figure would be disproportionate.

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:58 pm

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As for Prime Ratchet, it's also a matter of figure class. The smaller it is, the bigger the sacrifices that must be done. Maybe as a voyager, it would have been possible.

Or better yet, a MP figure... in 10 or 20 years once they are finally done with G1 and Beast Wars.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby WreckerJack » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:57 pm

Motto: "The complain train is leaving the station."
Weapon: Arc-Welders
-Kanrabat- wrote:As for Prime Ratchet, it's also a matter of figure class. The smaller it is, the bigger the sacrifices that must be done. Maybe as a voyager, it would have been possible.

Or better yet, a MP figure... in 10 or 20 years once they are finally done with G1 and Beast Wars.

He def should have had a voyager so he could scale with the other bots. Not that I dislike the deluxe class I just know it could have been done better and with more details (I'd have bought both anyway)

Oh geez, you read my mind. At least this gives me time to stash some money away.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Yotsuyasan » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:55 pm

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In an ideal world, I would prefer no fake chests. Heck, I loved Reveal the Shield Optimus Prime for taking a design that originally featured one and doing it without faking it.

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That being said, though, if a toy looks good, and kibble isn't too obnoxious, I'll get over it. In a lot of ways, I like this Prowl:

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...a bit better than this Prowl:

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...even though the second one pictured does a lot more right with what goes where during the transformation.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Overcracker » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:22 pm

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What about fake parts that cover up the real ones? When the look of the actual part is not stylized enough to fit the on screen model and still look o.k in alternate mode.

Think Prime First Edition Optimus Prime. Where the fake chest covers up the real truck windshields.

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Or even DOTM Voyager Prime. And entire fake torso piece covers up the real truck windshield.

One I always found strange is Reveal the Shield Starscream and his repaints. The actual jet cockpit ends up exactly where it needs to be, except its behind the fake chest cockpit.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Agamemnon » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:30 pm

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-Kanrabat- wrote:<snip>

Oh, and speaking of faux-chest, the earliest example I can come up with is Powermaster Optimus prime. The original G1 toy.
Image
Transformers G1 1988 Optimus Prime (Ginrai) Gallery
Image
Transformers G1 1988 Optimus Prime (Ginrai) Gallery

I always found that it was an odd design choice.

This was exactly what I was going to bring up. It is the earliest one I can remember, and I got Powermaster Prime as a kid. I hated this aspect. I saw the commercials with the engine (Hi-Q for Hasbro, right?) having to "unlock" Prime, but then he wasn't on the grill when Prime transformed. He was only on the grill when in full suited up Power mode. I kinda saw why they did it, wanting to have a more toon accurate looking Optimus when in bot mode. But it always bugged me and didn't seem to make sense. For that reason, to this day, I have a strong preference against using fake chests.

And then I saw the Japanese Headmasters series as an adult not that long ago (prolly within 10 years). And Ginrai had the truck cab windshield, etc. on his back? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. That made absolutely no sense to my 8-year-old self.

So, this was an example of a fake chest not only appearing on the toy, but in animation too. :HEADHURTS:
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby -Kanrabat- » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:36 am

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I wonder what came first? The toon, or the toy?

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby william-james88 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:49 am

-Kanrabat- wrote:I wonder what came first? The toon, or the toy?

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby -Kanrabat- » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:29 am

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So the toon was toy accurate for once.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Agamemnon » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:14 am

Motto: ""I'd be the President of the procrastinator's club if I ever got around to submitting my application.""
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-Kanrabat- wrote:So the toon was toy accurate for once.

Indeed, and after they tried to make the toy more toon accurate... 8-}
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Z3ROhour » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:52 pm

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personally,
I find real or "fake" chests
are both equally "REAL".

The choice is really in the hands & eyes
of the fembot herself.

Size, proportion, shape, hang, density or feel
is all up to the individual
and her feelings of
self, beauty or power.

There is no reason any other bot
should stick there optics, noses or armatures
into the modern she-bots choice of chassis.

or do you wanna start a whole new
BREASTFORCE!

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby william-james88 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:59 pm

While i had been workong on it for 3 years, I only recently published a list of top 5 triple changers. And it did not have TR Blitzwing. Some wondered why and one of my main problems with it (aside from the purple in the tank mode and the QC issues) was the fake chest. That part really dissapointed me, especially when it was the very first blitzwing to have a fake chest. G1, Animated and Thrilling 30 all use parts of the cockpit for the chest, as they should. Now, if this chest piece which had a fake cockpit piece on it was just seen in robot mode, I dont think I would be this upset, but what really takes the cake is that it is right there plain and center on the jet mode... right behind the actual real piece/panel that would have been on the robot chest.

So yeah, I find this fake chest really dumb on the designers part.

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Emerje » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:16 pm

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william-james88 wrote:While i had been workong on it for 3 years, I only recently published a list of top 5 triple changers. And it did not have TR Blitzwing. Some wondered why and one of my main problems with it (aside from the purple in the tank mode and the QC issues) was the fake chest. That part really dissapointed me, especially when it was the very first blitzwing to have a fake chest. G1, Animated and Thrilling 30 all use parts of the cockpit for the chest, as they should. Now, if this chest piece which had a fake cockpit piece on it was just seen in robot mode, I dont think I would be this upset, but what really takes the cake is that it is right there plain and center on the jet mode... right behind the actual real piece/panel that would have been on the robot chest.

So yeah, I find this fake chest really dumb on the designers part.

But the cockpit wasn't his chest on the original figure either and the part that made up his chest is in almost the exact same place as on the TR figure so I don't understand what you're complaining about.

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If anything the T30 and Animated versions are the odd ones out, TR is settings things back how it should be.

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby william-james88 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:44 pm

Emerje wrote:But the cockpit wasn't his chest on the original figure either and the part that made up his chest is in almost the exact same place as on the TR figure so I don't understand what you're complaining about.

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Image

If anything the T30 and Animated versions are the odd ones out, TR is settings things back how it should be.

Emerje

I know how the toy looks like and I never said the cockpit made up the chest, I said part of it does. Its always a real part. And in G1, it is the back of the cockpit (similar to NuRID Starscream). Its a cool design. This toy has that fake chest showing the back of the cockpit be a panel right after the real back of the cockpit in the TR toy. The cockpit has 2 backs? It looks dumb as ****.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:24 pm

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That Blitzwing bit don't bother me at all, because it's really not obvious at first glance. You must really know what you are looking for. Hell, I have both the G1 and the TR and I didn't noticed that at all.

Speaking of obvious fake parts for the bot visible in vehicle mode, nothing beat Jazz '07, legion version:

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Transformers (2007) Battle Jazz Gallery

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Transformers (2007) Battle Jazz Gallery

To add insult to injury, the REAL car front isn't even painted! :lol:
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Emerje » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:43 pm

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I don't know, I look at it and it doesn't look like the back of a cockpit, just a part of the back of the plane. The back of most fighter jets, including the MiG-25 Blitzwing is based on, aren't supposed to be flat across the back, the curve from the cockpit is supposed to extend all the way down. To me having that curved part on the back isn't out of place. I think the bigger problem is that the cockpit should have been extended to his chest to complete the lines but they shrunk it down for Megatron.

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby ExciKaiser » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:47 am

Same about Blitzwing, I don't really see the issue, we're more on very very stilyzed hommage to the G1 chest than something trying to look like part of the cockpit.

Same as Prime on the first page :

652afc5a-88da-4aeb-9901-26dc96c34813.jpg


It's not trying to look like a front cab, it's only mimicking his G1 chest, on stylized form.

We know it was a truck cab on his G1 form, but it's not what this chest is trying to accomplish.
Same about blitzwing. If you don't know what was the original toy, you have no idea what the chest is trying to do.

The only thing we can complain on Blitzwing is the fact this piece is very visible on plane mode. I agree on this. But that's all. Bad camouflage, but not fake chest in my opinion.

That's also one of the reasons I prefer Megatron's version of this mold.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Sjeng » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:24 am

Wolfman Jake wrote:Fake chests can be a bit disappointing, mainly because they so often don't have to be used. I appreciate having new and more inventive transformation schemes for legacy characters, but not at the cost of adding in faux kibble to get the right look in a different way. One of the worst offenders for me are the fake cockpits that have been plaguing seekers of late. They really look silly, especially when you can still easily see the real cockpit hanging out on the back when a fake one is molded onto the front of the robot chest.

The release of PotP Jazz has also demonstrated how "lazy" some other character releases have been over the past several years when it comes to robot chests. Jazz has a car hood and bumber as his pectorals, like many other G1 cars. The new PotP figure of Jazz achieves this look with no cheating! It's a nice little transformation that serves the character well aesthetically AND functionally, still allowing for Scramble City style limb versatility for combiners. However, Prowl and some others really got the shaft in this regard when it came to their releases in Combiner Wars. If Jazz can do it, Prowl can too, but unfortunately, Prowl got stuck being a simple repaint of Streetwise with a new head. This left Prowl very flat chested with his vehicle mode hood and bumper dumped on his back. It's for this reason that Henkei Prowl will remain my "Classics" Prowl on my display shelves, despite the fact that the Combiner Wars version has a much better head and face sculpt. Hmmm...I guess this example is more of a "wrong chest" than a fake chest, though the chest flap was often colored in by Hasbro and Takara to mimic the proper G1 look of Prowl and others.

I agree 100%. I think it's a shame when a jet or car has this amazing cockpit/hood which is his chest in the cartoon, but not on the toy, and instead they have it hanging somewhere with a fake chest.
I do agree that good looks come first, but modern engineers should be able to design them so both can be achieved imo.
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Agamemnon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:20 pm

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Heh, I forgot about one of the recent issues I had with a fake chest. I love the Masterpiece series and have several. (I want all, but they are very expensive.) I have really appreciated some of the engineering, like the ability of Ultra Magnus to have his missiles in truck mode either on the front a la the G1 toy or mounted on the side like in the cartoon. However...

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Grrr.....I know Bumbles is small, but really. I had come to expect more of the MP line engineering, especially at the price...
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Wolfman Jake » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:36 pm

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Agamemnon wrote:Grrr.....I know Bumbles is small, but really. I had come to expect more of the MP line engineering, especially at the price...


What specifically are you not happy with regarding MP Bumblebee?
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby william-james88 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:08 pm

Wolfman Jake wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:Grrr.....I know Bumbles is small, but really. I had come to expect more of the MP line engineering, especially at the price...


What specifically are you not happy with regarding MP Bumblebee?

Yeah, I dont really understand. His chest is supposed to be the car roof no?
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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby Emerje » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:39 pm

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It's the double rear window. There's really no way around it, the character design isn't based on a real car but a super deformed Beetle that severely shortened the car. There's just no way to account for that whole section of car that didn't exist on the character design so they had to make it into a backpack with a fake rear window on the chest.

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Re: Lets talk about "Fake Chests", yay or nay?

Postby ExciKaiser » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:41 pm

william-james88 wrote:
Wolfman Jake wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:Grrr.....I know Bumbles is small, but really. I had come to expect more of the MP line engineering, especially at the price...


What specifically are you not happy with regarding MP Bumblebee?

Yeah, I dont really understand. His chest is supposed to be the car roof no?


The complete car roof, with rear windows.

But I agree that complaining about MP Bumblebee is a bit strange when we know MP sunstreaker.
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