Level 0 Blues...

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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby _Anshin_ » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:59 pm

Absolute Zero wrote:It would be nice if more people on both sides leveled up, but, we can only control what we ourselves do. So, I will continue to level up my "inferior builds" and continue to rise on the high scores lists, and if I eventually pass people who won't level, so be it.

NV feeds a lot of people XP, if he stopped playing, you'd see a significant drop-off in xp gains.



Nobody called your builds "inferior", however if we encourage new players to just dump and run because the payouts get better as the get higher we will end up with a huge pool of free xp meals and no support in missions. I have found personally strong builds at the upper end of the level to net me higher yields than the lower end of the next level even if the next level has a higher pay out.

Personally for me I have found that the fastest builds for XP gain is by staying out of the CR chamber and fast turn around times.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Phaze » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:14 pm

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_Anshin_ wrote:Nobody called your builds "inferior", however if we encourage new players to just dump and run because the payouts get better as the get higher we will end up with a huge pool of free xp meals and no support in missions. I have found personally strong builds at the upper end of the level to net me higher yields than the lower end of the next level even if the next level has a higher pay out.

Personally for me I have found that the fastest builds for XP gain is by staying out of the CR chamber and fast turn around times.

its a quirk of HMW just before lvling your bots are making mockeries of their opponents then usualy until you get your first stat at their new level they have a gittery time that scares most people into running back to their previous lvl and not giving it a chance
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby _Anshin_ » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:27 pm

Phaze wrote:its a quirk of HMW just before lvling your bots are making mockeries of their opponents then usualy until you get your first stat at their new level they have a gittery time that scares most people into running back to their previous lvl and not giving it a chance


I see I would believe that, if I didn't have the numbers to back up my midlevel deployments. I level bots at a slower right with a constant point increase into the next level (Ripclaw//Nyteshade/Encryption) than I do by the store and invest method (Anshin/Warblade/Decryption/Shinu). Comparatively speaking even though I like to keep my bots in the same order, the deployment times and opportunity is the same. The only differences are the builds that I was experimenting with earlier this year.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Psychout » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:31 pm

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It's all about perspective.

Level 0 is the training level. At best it's 2 weeks and at worst it should only be 2 months, although it does seem to last a bit longer these days. Level 1 is where the game starts and where you have the chance to face the real opposition. I still remember the first time I landed a punch on a L8 as a lowly level 1 and it earned me a whole upgrade's worth of XP seconds before I was rammed in the face and sent to CR.

There will ways be those who sit on their XP, but € should never be a worry at the lowest levels - even us cons are more than happy to share the love (in return for a few heads...) just get stuck in, sure your winning average and energon may be higher, but your score difference is negligible and you are helping others level up, which in turn aids your own faction as you leech it back from them.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Absolute Zero » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:48 pm

Weapon: Corrosive Slime Shooter
_Anshin_ wrote:
Absolute Zero wrote:It would be nice if more people on both sides leveled up, but, we can only control what we ourselves do. So, I will continue to level up my "inferior builds" and continue to rise on the high scores lists, and if I eventually pass people who won't level, so be it.

NV feeds a lot of people XP, if he stopped playing, you'd see a significant drop-off in xp gains.



Nobody called your builds "inferior", however if we encourage new players to just dump and run because the payouts get better as the get higher we will end up with a huge pool of free xp meals and no support in missions. I have found personally strong builds at the upper end of the level to net me higher yields than the lower end of the next level even if the next level has a higher pay out.

Personally for me I have found that the fastest builds for XP gain is by staying out of the CR chamber and fast turn around times.


Most people would, since I have int and skill investments on nearly every bot (the only one lacking skill was just reset today). But I don't really care, to be honest. I play the game to give me something to do, and I'd rather help the game more by paying out better XP to the other side, so they can help my faction by leveling faster and paying out better. It's a theory. The only levels you should hold back on a bit, I think, are levels 0 and 1. If you don't have a solid build figured out by the time you're going into level 2, then you need to ask.

Honestly, I think I have solid builds, if not spectacular, even if they're well below the average XP for their level/upgrade numbers, they perform well enough, if not spectacular. I believe a solid build at level 2 will be a solid build at level 5. Even going with lowest upgrade, your primary stats will always be higher than the rest. So, if you have those figured out, you're good to go. 10s are nice, but not really needed, and often overkill level 5 and below.
_Anshin_ wrote:
Phaze wrote:its a quirk of HMW just before lvling your bots are making mockeries of their opponents then usualy until you get your first stat at their new level they have a gittery time that scares most people into running back to their previous lvl and not giving it a chance


I see I would believe that, if I didn't have the numbers to back up my midlevel deployments. I level bots at a slower right with a constant point increase into the next level (Ripclaw//Nyteshade/Encryption) than I do by the store and invest method (Anshin/Warblade/Decryption/Shinu). Comparatively speaking even though I like to keep my bots in the same order, the deployment times and opportunity is the same. The only differences are the builds that I was experimenting with earlier this year.



See, my guys are completely different. They usually do well around upgrades, and poorly between upgrades. If I'm near an upgrade, or just got an upgrade, I tend to get my best XP hauls. In the time between, they kinda get bored and fall asleep in missions, and don't perform well. Kinda like going to school. Awake when you get there, awake when you're about to go home, sleeping in the middle.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:13 am

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_Anshin_ wrote:
Absolute Zero wrote:It would be nice if more people on both sides leveled up, but, we can only control what we ourselves do. So, I will continue to level up my "inferior builds" and continue to rise on the high scores lists, and if I eventually pass people who won't level, so be it.

NV feeds a lot of people XP, if he stopped playing, you'd see a significant drop-off in xp gains.



Nobody called your builds "inferior" (...)

Let's not beat around the bush: AZ's build ARE inferior!

_Anshin_ wrote:(...), however if we encourage new players to just dump and run because the payouts get better as the get higher we will end up with a huge pool of free xp meals and no support in missions. I have found personally strong builds at the upper end of the level to net me higher yields than the lower end of the next level even if the next level has a higher pay out.

Personally for me I have found that the fastest builds for XP gain is by staying out of the CR chamber and fast turn around times.

Reading all the comments in this topic, it's obvious to me that I completely share _Anshin_'s look on assigning xp to stats and levelling up. Adding XP to the cheapest upgrade may get you to a higher level early, but it also means a good XP-payout for your rival and almost certain stasis locking for yourself. "Adding XP to the game so you can later tap into this" is about as stupid an argument as I've ever heard: you're only giving your rival an increasing XP-stash for his stats, and this can only be equalized when you've finally reached 10 on all stats: something which your rival will have been able to do ages before you have (but most certainly at your cost).

Until this year, repairers were a bum choice, especially when RoS cut back his playing time, but Zordon, SNAPCASE and chrisjbrandon's higher levels have made it a lot more attractive for me to introduce a couple of repairers in my team (likewise, my team is of course also a very good source of XP for other repairers). However, I've noticed that pure personal strength (as in STR/ SPD / COU combined with Strafe and Ramming) still gets a better XP pay off and (especially) survival rate, which is essential: if you're in the CR Chamber, you aren't generating XP. Repairers do have the advantage of making INT into a (semi-)useful stat, which, it is true, is able to get you to levels where you can take shots at the big boys. However, if you haven't got the power to do so, this is just a useless tactic.
Absolute Zero wrote:Yep. 2.8 millionish to upgrade a 1k/3.5k strafe/repair combo up to level 6 too. I've been watching my repairers out gain the non-repairers at a pretty surprising pace. I've got Zordon, ROS and especially my saviour Alldarker to feed off for repairs, and N_V to feed off for attacks. I make pretty good XP typically. The win bonus from the higher level missions is nice too. I think it's like 800 on the 7-10s.

Fixed that for you, AZ, for ironic but very truthful accuracy. :lol:
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Absolute Zero » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:11 pm

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alldarker wrote:
Absolute Zero wrote:Yep. 2.8 millionish to upgrade a 1k/3.5k strafe/repair combo up to level 6 too. I've been watching my repairers out gain the non-repairers at a pretty surprising pace. I've got Zordon, ROS [b}but not Alldarker, he dies to quickly[/b] to feed off for repairs, and N_V to feed off for attacks. I make pretty good XP typically. The win bonus from the higher level missions is nice too. I think it's like 800 on the 7-10s.

Fixed that for you, AZ, for ironic but very truthful accuracy. :lol:


I have to ask again, when have you won anything? It's hard to feed off someone who is the first one out in a competition, for the record too.

Screw it, I'm bored...

I could level down, and boost a few stats, but, I would actually make less XP, to be quiet frank. Every level is worth double the XP of the previous level. That means for doing 50% damage to a level 7, you'd earn the exact same XP as you would from a level 6, and twice what would from a level 5. So, while yeah, you're gonna get beat on, you're making more XP over all. I mean, 1% of damage to NV is worth more than stasis locking a team of level 0s. If your core stats (speed/courage and strength or fp) are in good enough shape, you'll do ok at the high levels. The problem is (and the reason why people get stomped at mid levels even though they have ten strength) is that by putting all your eggs in one basket, you're ignoring other stats that really do help.

And we'll forgive AD for thinking repair was ever useless. He wasn't here when you could selfrepair for a day, and people gained so much XP, that it actually caused server problems. Or that repair helps your allies out, because it can keep them alive through a fight, and get them back out there faster to earn more XP.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby _Anshin_ » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:40 pm

Absolute Zero wrote:

I could level down, and boost a few stats, but, I would actually make less XP, to be quiet frank. Every level is worth double the XP of the previous level. That means for doing 50% damage to a level 7, you'd earn the exact same XP as you would from a level 6, and twice what would from a level 5. So, while yeah, you're gonna get beat on, you're making more XP over all. I mean, 1% of damage to NV is worth more than stasis locking a team of level 0s. If your core stats (speed/courage and strength or fp) are in good enough shape, you'll do ok at the high levels. The problem is (and the reason why people get stomped at mid levels even though they have ten strength) is that by putting all your eggs in one basket, you're ignoring other stats that really do help.


I will concede that putting all of your points into one core stat (for example strength) isn't a going to benefit you as if you took 3 points out of that and invested them into speed and courage as well, but what you forgot is that the xp multiplier works in favor of the lower levels. A well built level 5 bot will end up doing more damage and walking away with more easily double the XP / Energon than a level 7 bot that does 1/3rd of the damage to the same opponent.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Absolute Zero » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:28 pm

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_Anshin_ wrote:
Absolute Zero wrote:

I could level down, and boost a few stats, but, I would actually make less XP, to be quiet frank. Every level is worth double the XP of the previous level. That means for doing 50% damage to a level 7, you'd earn the exact same XP as you would from a level 6, and twice what would from a level 5. So, while yeah, you're gonna get beat on, you're making more XP over all. I mean, 1% of damage to NV is worth more than stasis locking a team of level 0s. If your core stats (speed/courage and strength or fp) are in good enough shape, you'll do ok at the high levels. The problem is (and the reason why people get stomped at mid levels even though they have ten strength) is that by putting all your eggs in one basket, you're ignoring other stats that really do help.


I will concede that putting all of your points into one core stat (for example strength) isn't a going to benefit you as if you took 3 points out of that and invested them into speed and courage as well, but what you forgot is that the xp multiplier works in favor of the lower levels. A well built level 5 bot will end up doing more damage and walking away with more easily double the XP / Energon than a level 7 bot that does 1/3rd of the damage to the same opponent.


In theory, yes, but you will encounter them a lot less. The reason level running works, is because when I get to level 7, I'm not going to encounter level 4s as much (4-5, 4-6 missions elminated) and I am more likely to encounter 7 or higher (6-9, 7-10, 5-7) with the 1-11 mission being the only constant. And, if I don't see opposition (or allies) worth my time in the 1-11, odds are, I have one of the other missions available. Or, I can drop a lower level bot in there, and he can make better than his level XP, while my higher guy spawns another mission. That's why level running works. With the build on my level 7, at when I was level 5 and 6 (and the only real difference is 1 point in all stats pretty much) I made enough XP in two weeks to level up. That doesn't sound like a lot, but I had to double my XP score to do it. And I did it again at level 6. The only reason I haven't hit level 8 is because of the huge chunk in the middle of the day I simply can't play right now. Sure, I could boost my win %, but I was a predacon. There weren't enough of us to really stand a chance in a majority of missions.

I'm saying there's only one way to play, I'm just saying people (not saying you Anshin) shouldn't assume that there is only 1 way to play this game, and only 1 way works, and they've got this cracked because they figured out a way that works for them. Honestly, all the numbers, those were cracked a long time ago. Before some of the higher ranked guys even started playing. You play the game the way it works for you, I'll play the game the way it works for me.

I will say, I've run part of my team at lower levels with more condensed builds, and they've always gotten out paced by the level running builds, because they didn't have access to same mean (or average) of XP that the runners had. You're a number cruncher Anshin, crunch the numbers. If the average level a 7 encounters is a 7, and the average level a 5 encounters is a 5, who will have the higher average? Sure, the 5 might have some really nice hauls, but what's their average?
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby _Anshin_ » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:24 pm

Absolute Zero wrote:

I'm saying there's only one way to play, I'm just saying people (not saying you Anshin) shouldn't assume that there is only 1 way to play this game, and only 1 way works, and they've got this cracked because they figured out a way that works for them. Honestly, all the numbers, those were cracked a long time ago. Before some of the higher ranked guys even started playing. You play the game the way it works for you, I'll play the game the way it works for me.

I will say, I've run part of my team at lower levels with more condensed builds, and they've always gotten out paced by the level running builds, because they didn't have access to same mean (or average) of XP that the runners had. You're a number cruncher Anshin, crunch the numbers. If the average level a 7 encounters is a 7, and the average level a 5 encounters is a 5, who will have the higher average? Sure, the 5 might have some really nice hauls, but what's their average?


No you are absolutely right. I know I've had words with Burn before a while back when I was trying different builds and testing different theories. There are hundreds of different combinations that can be made and each will have its own result. However the problem is the average level a 7 encounters isn't another level 7. If you are a bot the average level con is 8. If you are a con the average level is a 7. This is primarily because there are more bots that have taken the level running build method.

My main point that I was trying to make and that I got sidetracked with is that doing this is sometimes a detriment to the player and his team. Yes at level 7 can pull XP that is in the 5 digit range opposed to a level 5 that gets an average 4 digit haul, however the juggle of time down and xp earned realistically comes out to be a similar haul. A level 7 can say earn 14k and get wiped (1hr cr + 20minute game + 5 minute deploy = 1.5hrs roughly). A level 5 can earn about 7k per fight. At a strong build that level 5 can be deployed with a 20 minute CR time (20min cr + 20min game + 5 minute deploy = 1hr roughly). If we look at a 10 hour deployment time (with averages of 14k xp for a level 7 and 7k for a level 5) we can see that the following (7 deployments at 9 hours 55m inutes play time vs 13 deployments at 9hours 45) or 7x14k vs 13x7k or a level 7 bot earning 98k experience vs a level 5 bot earning 91k experience. Yes the level 7 earns 7k more and we are making assumption that really are stretching reality such as constant xp earn, down times, similar opponents, etc. but you see my point.

The reason that I am trying to dissuade people from level running from is that while you are making more xp (again I am not denying it can be done and shows higher yield), you are spending more time in the CR and causing your team mates to probably do the same. You don't know how annoying it is sometimes to see your deployment character get wiped in 2 or 3 minutes as the last survivor because your team mate went in without being at 100% health or was wiped in an attack in the first 30 seconds. Its even more frustrating when you have a squad of 4 bots that are all a level higher than the squad of 3 cons that just took them out and your xp haul is a few hundred XP while the cons are walking away with a few thousand.

To make a long story short or TL;DR. You are right there are different ways to play this game. You are also right that level running yields higher amounts of XP ideally, but please understand that from time to time it also frustrates some of us that are getting wiped due to it.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:50 pm

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_Anshin_: I'm pretty much awed by you for explaning all this with so much patience and clarity. I just hope and pray the message gets through...
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Absolute Zero » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:05 pm

Weapon: Corrosive Slime Shooter
I can't honestly say for everyone who's level running (and I've only really noticed Vitatech to be really pushing it) but I don't get locked as much as you'd think, even without armor. I only have two guys with armor currently, out of twelve. My top guy doesn't have armor, which is probably dumb at level 7, but even he doesn't get locked as much as you would think. If I wasn't lazy, I'd go back to tracking my team and someone else, and compare growth and average XP per mission and all that, but I... I kinda feel motivated. *L*

Anyway, I can't speak for other people, and I know the admission of not wearing armor is gonna get nailed by someone at some point, but I change alt modes kinda often, and or just tweak out a build, shifting upgrades around, so I can't justify buying armor, and then getting rid of it in a month, when I won't have made the energon from it back. Yeah, it'd be nice to have, but I'm throwing guys in to soak up some damage and try to allow others to cut back on their CR costs either by keeping them alive through repairs, or just providing another target so that the cons don't hit the same guy constantly.

But you can also look at this way. If you're out numbered at a higher level, you're going to be getting stasis locked, one way or another more often than not. People running up in levels, provides back up, yeah, they may not be the builds you want, and as "strong" as you want, but, they're providing back up that you didn't have (and wont have until people who have enough XP to level up and make those 'superior builds' do so) and taking a few hits off of you, and allowing you to score better.

Hey, AD, you... you got something on your nose there buddy.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby _Anshin_ » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:04 pm

I watch a lot of people and monitor them (both bot and cons) off and on to see what I do wrong and what can be improved. I honestly don't have a problem with your builds. I have to say some of them stand out and some of them don't. I know that at times I wish some of the cons would have spent more time leveling and less time investing, but hey sometimes I just want an easy kill.

For example Rabstanz did great here (Win but low yield at 7 for Darq). Likewise, while Darq is back in deployment I still think the yield is relatively equivalent for Encryption at level 3 (High yield win for the level).

But either way, we both have our own tactics and our own opinions and I will respect yours since you respect mine. I won't comment on this anymore since we are just beating the same dead horse and my arms are tired.
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Absolute Zero » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:38 pm

Weapon: Corrosive Slime Shooter
If I recall correctly, any haul over a bots 100% kill for a level is considered good, so yeah, that's a nice haul on the level 3.

Yeah, we are beating a dead horse, but at least we're having, I think, pretty smart conversation while doing it. I understand, level running isn't for all (and shouldn't be), and I agree, it'd be real nice if some more cons leveled up a little faster, but it is what it is.
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Idleness and dissipation breed apathy.
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Break all the fracking rules and
Go to Hell with Superman and
Die like a champion, yeah hey!

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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:44 am

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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Burn » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:20 am

So you didn't appreciate him being there as a meat shield and distracting the enemy long enough for you to pull off a victory?
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:24 am

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Burn wrote:(...) long enough for you to pull off a victory?

He was killed at 00:42 into the mission... Considering I killed the final 'Con at 03:02, I spent a whole lot more time in the mission without him than with him. He can't even get the meat shield part right.
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Rank: 9
Courage: 10
Firepower: 6
Skill: 9

Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Burn » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:47 am

Care to offer up some more evidence of AZ's poor performance? One mission isn't really a defining example.
Image
Cobotron wrote:I'm drunk as **** right now!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:36 am

Motto: "Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici"
Weapon: Vibro-Force Gun
Burn wrote:Care to offer up some more evidence of AZ's poor performance? One mission isn't really a defining example.

Oh, no problem, 'buddy': I knew that question would be coming: you're highly perdictable like that.

http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71543
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71537
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71504
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71444
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71383
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71627
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71567
http://www.seibertron.com/heavymetalwar ... n_id=71615 (and yes, that’s Tantrum down there with 0 XP as well :lol: )

Mind you, this is just a quick and dirty scan of AZ's recent missions.
Now, it's your turn again to tell to me why I'm wrong (seeing as you seem to think conversing with me is some sort of turn-based strategy game).
I'm so meta, even this acronym...
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alldarker
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Burn » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:19 am

Care to point out where I said you were wrong?

'cause i'm just pointing out how much of a prick you are for picking on your fellow Autobot. :lol:
Image
Cobotron wrote:I'm drunk as **** right now!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:21 am

Motto: "Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici"
Weapon: Vibro-Force Gun
Burn wrote:Care to point out where I said you were wrong?

'cause i'm just pointing out how much of a prick you are for picking on your fellow Autobot. :lol:

Just paying him in kind. :lol: This never started out as picking on a fellow Autobot, but AZ, for some reason, turned it into a pissing contest. I only give as good as I get, and at least I'm able to back myself up with facts and figures, while 'others' can only resort to ranting and name calling:
Burn wrote:prick
:roll:
Last edited by alldarker on Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm so meta, even this acronym...
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alldarker
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Burn » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:28 am

Image
Image
Cobotron wrote:I'm drunk as **** right now!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Burn
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Posts: 44664
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:37 am

Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:30 am

Motto: "Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici"
Weapon: Vibro-Force Gun
Hey, I resent that!
I put smilies in that post! :grin:
I'm so meta, even this acronym...
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alldarker
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Posts: 1452
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Skill: 9

Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby Burn » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:32 am

After you editted it!
Image
Cobotron wrote:I'm drunk as **** right now!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Burn
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Re: Level 0 Blues...

Postby alldarker » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:36 am

Motto: "Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici"
Weapon: Vibro-Force Gun
Burn wrote:After you editted it!
:grin:
I'm so meta, even this acronym...
User avatar
alldarker
Brainmaster
Posts: 1452
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:37 pm
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Buy from alldarker on eBay
Strength: 10+
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Rank: 9
Courage: 10
Firepower: 6
Skill: 9

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