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Masterpiece Megatron KO?

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Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby william-james88 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:36 pm

Motto: "'till All Are One"
Seibertorn user Pilgrim76 showed me some interesting listings where they are selling MP Megatron but state that it is the KO version in the listing info. I thought there was never a KO MP megs. Does this mean that all those Megatrons that have been sold on e-bay and let go for 100$ for the past few years were hese same KO ones?

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/New-Transformers ... rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/New-Transformers ... rmvSB=true
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:05 am

Thanks william-james for opening a specific topic :)

I ordered from a chinese ebay seller (Lena 81822) a MP-5 megatron, sold as genuine. I received an MP-5 with a very different box compared to a legit one. I didn't open the box yet, as I have a paypal dispute running with the seller, but I took pictures of my box and highlighted the differences.

What I received is this :

Image

The front illustration looks like it was scanned from a legit MP-5, then reprinted, losing definition and color depth in the process.

For reference, here is a legit MP-5 front box :

Image
Transformers Masterpiece Megatron (MP-05) Gallery

The most striking differences are : the red background (which is almost black in my MP-5) ; Meg's left leg which is cut straight on mine, while it should fade away in the red background ; and the picture of Megatron surrounded by a very heavy black outline, much lighter on the legit MP-5 (I highlighted it on Meg's right shoulder). Also the whole Megatron picture is quite blurry, while the red background is heavily pixelated.

A more subtle difference, but which gives away the KO, is on Meg's cannon :

Image

As you can see, there is no gray reflection on the canon, while it is present in the original. But the most important part is where the white line crosses the canon, one can clearly see that the line overlaps with the black outline of the canon. Again this does not happen on the original :

Image

The MP-5 I received is obviously a KO, there is no way that such huge printing problems could be factory issues or variations.

Also, there are currenlty several MP-5 KO listed on ebay like the one shown by william-james.

Interestingly, they show front boxes that look accurate to the legit one, but both these sellers are using the same picture for their listing. This picture may be used for illustration purpose and it is possible that if you order from them you may receive an obvious KO like mine. Yet, it is not impossible that some KO have boxes with illustrations of much higher quality than the one I show here, maybe closer to the original. Also, some chinese ebayers are listing MP-5 with the same box as mine without saying it is a KO, like this one :

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Brand-New-Transf ... rmvSB=true

So, be careful when you purchase cheap MP-5 from ebay. Even if KO MP-5 where unreported yet, these fake Masterpieces may have been there for a while.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby william-james88 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:42 am

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All the boxes Lena has been sending are the same, here is mine from 2 years ago:

Image

But there is one more thing. MP Megatron did get a second run in 2008 (or was it 2010?) and we dont know how those boxes looked like.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:50 am

Honestly it seems highly unlikely that Takara changed so much the quality of the illustrations.

There have been 2nd production runs of several MPs (Soundwave, MP-12 Lambor for example), and there has never been such quality drop in the illustrations.

Yet it would be great to have a picture of a MP-5 from 2nd production run purchased from a trusted seller. This would definitely confirm or rebuke that it is a KO.

[Edit] Another hint comes from the Gold version of MP-5, which is the most recent, and is exactly the same (Meg's color aside) as the original MP-5
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby fenrir72 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:14 pm

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Pilgrim76 wrote:Honestly it seems highly unlikely that Takara changed so much the quality of the illustrations.

There have been 2nd production runs of several MPs (Soundwave, MP-12 Lambor for example), and there has never been such quality drop in the illustrations.

Yet it would be great to have a picture of a MP-5 from 2nd production run purchased from a trusted seller. This would definitely confirm or rebuke that it is a KO.

[Edit] Another hint comes from the Gold version of MP-5, which is the most recent, and is exactly the same (Meg's color aside) as the original MP-5


Those boxes by lena are KOs. Yes Pilgrim, that I am 100% certain. As some are want in ignoring my previous input in box packaging backgrounder in the other thread or are in a state of denial, unless some event shattering anniversary release, a company WILL not change the master negative for the packaging fonts. Cost cutting measure (except for MP-01 where the "More than Meets TEH Eye was corrected).

More or less likely, the so called "overrun" boxes' fonts are scanned images and not negatives. So whoever purchased those MP-05 a few years back also snagged a 100% certified KO and used a low detail scanner to print the packaging. Even if it's a latest one, a scanner can only do so much to replicate an image. While the original box negative font WILL never change.

This is more blatant among anime PVC figures that are DIRT cheap sold in ebay. The box quality is so scrap....py!

Btw, how's the complaint you filed with PayPal/ebay?
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Sun May 01, 2016 1:52 am

Btw, how's the complaint you filed with PayPal/ebay?


Thanks for asking. Well paypal handled it as they usually do : I have to send back the items to Lena to get refund. But shipping costs are my loss :(

Givent that a tracked shipping from France to China is VERY exepensive (MUCH than the opposite way), I will probably drop the case, and sell the items as KO for cheap price to French TFs collectors. I'll have some money loss but less or equal than if I'm sending the item back, and I'll probably make some happy buyers here.

Anyway, I 100% agree with you, for me it is an obvious KO, but I believe that any doubt could definitely be removed if someone posted a picture of 2nd wave MP-5 (2010 or 2011 if I remeber correctly).
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby fenrir72 » Sun May 01, 2016 2:48 am

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Image

Gold Megatron. Somewhat different angle of the fusin canon but no overlap. Even at the distance, compare this to that of Ryan's ( I am assuming first release)

Image

Robotkingdom water damaged 1st edition

Image

(no over lap as you mentioned) so even RK can't tell the difference between the fist/2nd release so I'm guessing they are both the same using the same packaging negatives.

Compare that to yours. Though the resolution makes it hard to do a straight comparison, besides the gold color, almost no change in font quality except for the freshness/newness issue.

And what you mentioned the ruffled purple cloth
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Sun May 01, 2016 3:27 am

Yup, Gold MP-5 is the latest release, and I suspect Takara just paintshopped Meg's color changing it from Steel to Gold, because the picture is EXACTLY the same as the original MP-5.

If that's true, that means that a loss of quality between MP-5 1st run and MP-5G (just for MP-5 2nd run ?) is completely unlikely.

And as you said, even a loss of quality wouldn't explain the white line overlaps with the canon black outline, it is impossible that the masters changed so much just for the second run.

Simplest explanation is always the best.

And finally, one more information : I contacted yesterday this ebay seller to know if the MP-5 he was selling was a KO or a legit (the front picture is the same as mine) :

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/381502280640?eui ... 58427&cp=1

Here is his answer.

Nouveau message de : gainbon Top Rated Seller(13,643YellowShooting Star)
Dear Valued Buyer,

It's not original,it's a KO.

Best Regards,
Jessica


I think it definitely answers the question.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Batfan007 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:33 pm

fenrir72 wrote:Image

Gold Megatron. Somewhat different angle of the fusin canon but no overlap. Even at the distance, compare this to that of Ryan's ( I am assuming first release)

Image

Robotkingdom water damaged 1st edition

Image

(no over lap as you mentioned) so even RK can't tell the difference between the fist/2nd release so I'm guessing they are both the same using the same packaging negatives.

Compare that to yours. Though the resolution makes it hard to do a straight comparison, besides the gold color, almost no change in font quality except for the freshness/newness issue.

And what you mentioned the ruffled purple cloth



All of that just confims that the box is a **** quality scan /reproduction.
None of this thread so far actually proves that MP Megatron is a KO and not a factory reject.
I was hoping to get some more info on this, as the majority of toys sold by LENA on EBAY are factory rejects, NOT KO's.

Many Chinese sellers will list factory rejects as "KO's" so people don't complain about the minor defects from factory rejects of official toys.


All the other toys in the MP range that have been KO'd have had detailed analysis of differences, defects etc, but so far all I see for the MP Megatron is speculation.
Anyone have links to videos or anything with real information on this supposed MP Megs KO, it would be much appreciated so I can tell real from fake from factory reject, which are three distinct categories and should not be lumped together imo :MATTEL:
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby william-james88 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:09 pm

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But doesnt the fake box make it an unofficial release of a product?
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:43 am

Batfan007 wrote:None of this thread so far actually proves that MP Megatron is a KO and not a factory reject.
I was hoping to get some more info on this, as the majority of toys sold by LENA on EBAY are factory rejects, NOT KO's.

Many Chinese sellers will list factory rejects as "KO's" so people don't complain about the minor defects from factory rejects of official toys.



I've been reading the "factory rejects" theory for years, but never seen an actual proof of it. There is a common belief in the TF community that toy parts could be stolen from chinese factories (or illegally produced using the official moulds), assembled and repackaged in fake Takara boxes.

This is not impossible, and I am ready to believe it, but clues about it should be provided at some point.

I don't know where this urban legend came from, but it is continuously fuelled without being definitely confirmed. For example, the claim that "many ebay reseller" are listing factory rejects as KO's has never been backed by facts.

"The majority of toys sold by Lena are factory rejects". I exchanged with her quite a while trying to solve my issue, and she insists that her toys are real & legit (can we agree that factory reject does not fall in that category ?). Of course I have no reason to trust her, but I have no more reason to trust a urban legend either. Given facts (Same fake box as KO MP-5 listed by other ebay sellers), I will just accept that this toy is non legit, and most likely a KO.

Final thoughts : I understand your frustration that this non legit MP-5 can not be compared to a legit one, but to achieve such comparison you need to have them both in hands, which is not my case.

My understanding is that this report is the first to alert about fake MP-5 circulating in the 2nd market circuit, so be aware of what you purchase and who you purchase from.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby skywarp-2 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:20 am

Okay, read the all the posts..

so I am confused..

Is the bot inside the box original, and the boxes a KO?

Or is this a 2nd Run from the Hasbro China Plant??

Or a total KO??

I own the original MP-05 first run.. gonna examine my box now..
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby fenrir72 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:27 am

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skywarp-2 wrote:Okay, read the all the posts..

so I am confused..

Is the bot inside the box original, and the boxes a KO?

Or is this a 2nd Run from the Hasbro China Plant??

Or a total KO??

I own the original MP-05 first run.. gonna examine my box now..


Those are fakes.

Addressed to everyone who are in denial (not to you skywarp).

Just using simple logic as I also buy via direct 2ndary market in Japan. Some online legit stores in Japan offer like not less than 5 MP-05 Megatrons. While in ebay, there are like gazillions! :lol:

Is Takara so wasteful as to allow all such "over runs"? Really now. It hurts the bottom line and some Japanese manager is gonna commit "sepuku" over this. Yet in Aliexpress and even ebay, you have a MP-01 sized full die-cast MP-10. Which is a bonafide KO.

So the moral of the thread is, buyer beware. If the deal sounds too good to be true, it ain't.

And don't go on complaining about QC issues. Even the legit ones have ISSUES 8-}
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby fenrir72 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:36 am

Motto: "Power to the strong and the right!"
Weapon: Plasma Cannon
Batfan007 wrote:
fenrir72 wrote:Image

Gold Megatron. Somewhat different angle of the fusin canon but no overlap. Even at the distance, compare this to that of Ryan's ( I am assuming first release)

Image

Robotkingdom water damaged 1st edition

Image

(no over lap as you mentioned) so even RK can't tell the difference between the fist/2nd release so I'm guessing they are both the same using the same packaging negatives.

Compare that to yours. Though the resolution makes it hard to do a straight comparison, besides the gold color, almost no change in font quality except for the freshness/newness issue.

And what you mentioned the ruffled purple cloth



All of that just confims that the box is a **** quality scan /reproduction.
None of this thread so far actually proves that MP Megatron is a KO and not a factory reject.
I was hoping to get some more info on this, as the majority of toys sold by LENA on EBAY are factory rejects, NOT KO's.

Many Chinese sellers will list factory rejects as "KO's" so people don't complain about the minor defects from factory rejects of official toys.


All the other toys in the MP range that have been KO'd have had detailed analysis of differences, defects etc, but so far all I see for the MP Megatron is speculation.
Anyone have links to videos or anything with real information on this supposed MP Megs KO, it would be much appreciated so I can tell real from fake from factory reject, which are three distinct categories and should not be lumped together imo :MATTEL:


Sake of argument that those are "rejects" So Takara just sells them off at a loss and leaves it to the "distributor" to make "poopy" box versions of their legit product? COME ON! Even the Feds know a fake from a fake. They have a task force cracking down on such similar consumer products.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Batfan007 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:19 pm

fenrir72 wrote:
Batfan007 wrote:
fenrir72 wrote:Image

Gold Megatron. Somewhat different angle of the fusin canon but no overlap. Even at the distance, compare this to that of Ryan's ( I am assuming first release)

Image

Robotkingdom water damaged 1st edition

Image

(no over lap as you mentioned) so even RK can't tell the difference between the fist/2nd release so I'm guessing they are both the same using the same packaging negatives.

Compare that to yours. Though the resolution makes it hard to do a straight comparison, besides the gold color, almost no change in font quality except for the freshness/newness issue.

And what you mentioned the ruffled purple cloth



All of that just confims that the box is a **** quality scan /reproduction.
None of this thread so far actually proves that MP Megatron is a KO and not a factory reject.
I was hoping to get some more info on this, as the majority of toys sold by LENA on EBAY are factory rejects, NOT KO's.

Many Chinese sellers will list factory rejects as "KO's" so people don't complain about the minor defects from factory rejects of official toys.


All the other toys in the MP range that have been KO'd have had detailed analysis of differences, defects etc, but so far all I see for the MP Megatron is speculation.
Anyone have links to videos or anything with real information on this supposed MP Megs KO, it would be much appreciated so I can tell real from fake from factory reject, which are three distinct categories and should not be lumped together imo :MATTEL:


Sake of argument that those are "rejects" So Takara just sells them off at a loss and leaves it to the "distributor" to make "poopy" box versions of their legit product? COME ON! Even the Feds know a fake from a fake. They have a task force cracking down on such similar consumer products.



Again , I have NO INTEREST IN A BOX.

What I was actually requesting any info, details, differences that confirm the MP Megatron TOY as fake's.
Such as imperfections, known issues and differences to the official mold.
If anyone has pics, videos etc please link to them.

Just saying "It's fake / not fake BECAUSE I SAY SO" is not what I am looking for. I like to know as much as possible about anything I may, or may not buy.
So anyone with actual information, or if you have one of these, then please share and talk about it.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Tyrannacon » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:26 pm

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Weapon: Fusion Cannon
No offense intended with this. I've been mostly lurking in this thread because I'm still very much on the fence of scooping one of these auctions or maybe jumping for a 3rd Party product as the MP-05's got many issues. I am reluctant to chance getting a MP-05 if it is a KO. I'd rather just go for something 3rd Party as it would and could probably be better constructed than a KO Masterpiece. That said, the box being poorly printed I don't think that's enough strong evidence for it to be a KO though? I'm doubtful is my point of that. I'd be curious what other evidence there exists here in this. I mean the toy is the thing being sought after here and needs to be authenticated I feel. You can take a real toy out and put it in a crap and poorly printed box. So, don't get me wrong as I'm not short-changing or disbelieving anyone for saying what they're saying about it being KO. You guys do make a compelling argument for it, but the box is the box and the toy is where it's at. Again, apologies if I offended or upset anyone with this point.

I yield to the greater expertise here and respect that expertise that is greater than my own on this subject. So know that automatically in any case.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby fenrir72 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:41 pm

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Weapon: Plasma Cannon
Ignorance is bliss. If some prefer to be then it's your right. No matter what evidence you present and even logical universal business practices then so be it. I don't see anyone here submitting any evidence that will stand in court. Or submitting professional credentials that will violate their privacy. None at all.

If by any chance some have purchased from lena and choose to believe those are overruns, again it is your right.

Repeating the facts I mentioned AGAIN on packaging practices (mine is actual experience, try googling it too on how packaging is actually done) is going nowhere. As Pilgrim already mentioned, buyer beware. If a deal sounds too good to be true then it is. >:oP
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby william-james88 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:01 pm

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Batfan007 wrote:Again , I have NO INTEREST IN A BOX.

What I was actually requesting any info, details, differences that confirm the MP Megatron TOY as fake's.
Such as imperfections, known issues and differences to the official mold.
If anyone has pics, videos etc please link to them.

Just saying "It's fake / not fake BECAUSE I SAY SO" is not what I am looking for. I like to know as much as possible about anything I may, or may not buy.
So anyone with actual information, or if you have one of these, then please share and talk about it.

There is no difference between this Megatron and the official release when it comes to the toy. This toy is made from the same mold at the same factory using the same specifications as the latest official release. But this toy's production is not sanctioned by Takara and the box confirms that it is not an official release of the toy. So the toy was not allowed to have been made and sold to you. The factory is just making more to be sold on e-bay through Lena (for the casettes as well). And they are putting these unsolicited Megatrons in fake boxes.

So the toy is the same as the others, but it is still an unoficial release and the box is fake. Which makes it illigitimate at a corporate standpoint. You are buying an unathorized release.

These are the facts and anyone can choose where they lie on their morality in face of them. Some have chosen to see this as the real toy since it is made the exact same way as the previous releases (and thus not a KO) and others have chosen to label it a KO since its not a legitimate release.

One thing for certain is that if anyone resells this knowing these facts, and does not disclose that the box is fake and that this is not a toy from any actual official production run then they are purposefully lieing to the consumer.

TLDR: The toy itself is the same quality as the previous Takara releases but it is an illigitimate release.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:41 am

william-james88 wrote:There is no difference between this Megatron and the official release when it comes to the toy. This toy is made from the same mold at the same factory using the same specifications as the latest official release. But this toy's production is not sanctioned by Takara and the box confirms that it is not an official release of the toy. So the toy was not allowed to have been made and sold to you. The factory is just making more to be sold on e-bay through Lena (for the casettes as well). And they are putting these unsolicited Megatrons in fake boxes.

So the toy is the same as the others, but it is still an unoficial release and the box is fake. Which makes it illigitimate at a corporate standpoint. You are buying an unathorized release.

These are the facts and anyone can choose where they lie on their morality in face of them. Some have chosen to see this as the real toy since it is made the exact same way as the previous releases (and thus not a KO) and others have chosen to label it a KO since its not a legitimate release.

One thing for certain is that if anyone resells this knowing these facts, and does not disclose that the box is fake and that this is not a toy from any actual official production run then they are purposefully lieing to the consumer.

TLDR: The toy itself is the same quality as the previous Takara releases but it is an illigitimate release.


I agree with most of your conclusions. Box is fake, product is unlicensed. Suspected KO.

However, Again, I wouldn't be so affirmative in saying that the toy itself is exactly the same as the original, and even more careful by not jumping to the conclusion that the facility is producing more toys to sell through Lena...

There is no actual proof of this until somebody does a thorough comparison between Lena's MP-05 and an official one. Even then, my experience is that KOs reach today a level of perfection where they can't really be distinguished from the original. There are plenty of examples about it (the cassettrons, some MP Prowl, etc...). Actually, in a lot of video comparisons between KO's and originals, the strongest giveaway is the box itself !

Let's say it again, confirmed facts are : Box is fake. Toy is unlicensed. Same MP-05 is sold by - at least - another ebay seller as KO.

To my knowledge, nobody ever reported that official "overruns" or "reruns" were repackaged in fake boxes. And fake box being a common features of TF KOs, the probability the toy itself being a KO is high.

I would argue that saying that the toy is real and the box is fake NEEDS SOLID PROOF (IMO, much more than when saying that the toy is fake when the box is fake...).

On a side note : I did not open my fake MP-5, as I intend to sell it as "MISB KO MP5" to anyone interested, so I won't be able to make a comparison. But I know for sure that some forum users have a MP-5 purchased from Lena, so thay may be able to do an objective comparison is they have access to a legit MP-5 ?
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Tyrannacon » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:15 am

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Weapon: Fusion Cannon
Alright. I think I understand then. Thanks to you two for clearing that up for me.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby william-james88 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:47 am

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Pilgrim76 wrote:Let's say it again, confirmed facts are : Box is fake. Toy is unlicensed. Same MP-05 is sold by - at least - another ebay seller as KO.

To my knowledge, nobody ever reported that official "overruns" or "reruns" were repackaged in fake boxes. And fake box being a common features of TF KOs, the probability the toy itself being a KO is high.

I would argue that saying that the toy is real and the box is fake NEEDS SOLID PROOF (IMO, much more than when saying that the toy is fake when the box is fake...).

On a side note : I did not open my fake MP-5, as I intend to sell it as "MISB KO MP5" to anyone interested, so I won't be able to make a comparison. But I know for sure that some forum users have a MP-5 purchased from Lena, so thay may be able to do an objective comparison is they have access to a legit MP-5 ?


The Toy being unlicensed is not a confirmed fact. The release is illigitimate, proven by the box, but a toy being licensed is is up for debate. What makes a toy physically real and not a copy or a fake is the mold use. And it really seems like the factory linked with Lena is using the real legitimate mold from Takara.

It is a fact that the molds for the MPs of BUmblebee and prior were left in China and not sent to Vietnam. John Warden of Hasbro had commented on that, and transporting molds is extreamly costly soit is cost effective to leave the production of toys using older molds in the chinese factories. And Lena is perfectly synched with those releases. Lena had nothing new to offer fora long time last year. But then Takara decided to rerelease MP Bumblebee in red and do their version of Best Hunters Dreadwing. Both of those are older molds and thus they were made in china rather than vietnam. Those also happen to be the only new toys Lena is selling. That is no coincidence. While those may be extra copies or factory rejects (the Dreadwings all have a messed up paint job on their faces), it shows us that Lena is definitely linked to the chinese factory holding these official and legitimate Transformers molds.

So looking at that, it makes far more sense that the factory is using the legitimate MP Megatron mold (which had been cleaned up recently to make the gold Megatron) to make the MP Megatrons we see sold on Lena. They were most probably not told to make more and Takara most probably sees none of the money when one is sold, making it all illigitimate from a business point of view. But them using the same mold means this toy is licensed. Because if the toys ss the same as the original release in terms of production, and that toy was licensed, then its all just semantics.

Anyways, there was an analysis done by Jordan Rouse‎ of the Talk Transformers facebook group who wanted to make sure his toy was legitimate (he had bought from Lena) and it turns out to be exactly the same to the legitimate releases. However, as I argued with him, that doesnt mean he has a legitimate release since his box is fake.

Looking at all the evidence presented, what makes most sense to me is that the factoy kept making more toys using the legit molds to make some extra money. Same with the casettes.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby skywarp-2 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:20 am

william-james88 wrote:
Pilgrim76 wrote:Let's say it again, confirmed facts are : Box is fake. Toy is unlicensed. Same MP-05 is sold by - at least - another ebay seller as KO.

To my knowledge, nobody ever reported that official "overruns" or "reruns" were repackaged in fake boxes. And fake box being a common features of TF KOs, the probability the toy itself being a KO is high.

I would argue that saying that the toy is real and the box is fake NEEDS SOLID PROOF (IMO, much more than when saying that the toy is fake when the box is fake...).

On a side note : I did not open my fake MP-5, as I intend to sell it as "MISB KO MP5" to anyone interested, so I won't be able to make a comparison. But I know for sure that some forum users have a MP-5 purchased from Lena, so thay may be able to do an objective comparison is they have access to a legit MP-5 ?


The Toy being unlicensed is not a confirmed fact. The release is illigitimate, proven by the box, but a toy being licensed is is up for debate. What makes a toy physically real and not a copy or a fake is the mold use. And it really seems like the factory linked with Lena is using the real legitimate mold from Takara.

It is a fact that the molds for the MPs of BUmblebee and prior were left in China and not sent to Vietnam. John Warden of Hasbro had commented on that, and transporting molds is extreamly costly soit is cost effective to leave the production of toys using older molds in the chinese factories. And Lena is perfectly synched with those releases. Lena had nothing new to offer fora long time last year. But then Takara decided to rerelease MP Bumblebee in red and do their version of Best Hunters Dreadwing. Both of those are older molds and thus they were made in china rather than vietnam. Those also happen to be the only new toys Lena is selling. That is no coincidence. While those may be extra copies or factory rejects (the Dreadwings all have a messed up paint job on their faces), it shows us that Lena is definitely linked to the chinese factory holding these official and legitimate Transformers molds.

So looking at that, it makes far more sense that the factory is using the legitimate MP Megatron mold (which had been cleaned up recently to make the gold Megatron) to make the MP Megatrons we see sold on Lena. They were most probably not told to make more and Takara most probably sees none of the money when one is sold, making it all illigitimate from a business point of view. But them using the same mold means this toy is licensed. Because if the toys ss the same as the original release in terms of production, and that toy was licensed, then its all just semantics.

Anyways, there was an analysis done by Jordan Rouse‎ of the Talk Transformers facebook group who wanted to make sure his toy was legitimate (he had bought from Lena) and it turns out to be exactly the same to the legitimate releases. However, as I argued with him, that doesnt mean he has a legitimate release since his box is fake.

Looking at all the evidence presented, what makes most sense to me is that the factoy kept making more toys using the legit molds to make some extra money. Same with the casettes.



Hmmmm... interesting.. Now I have the Original Release of the MP-05 when it first came out, same with the MP-01 I have the first run of that from Takara Tomy as well..

But when I got my MP-24 Star Saber, I was a bit concerned by the over spray on the helmet faceplate that made like a smudge of dark grey under his eyes. I went looking and found a post on TFormers.com that said that MP-24 had been KO'D but when reading the posting and going thru the reviews, I saw this message at the bottom of the post..

http://tformers.com/knockoff-alert-ko-m ... /news.html


Manolo Peguero

i have both his actually not a knock off he was remade in a hasbro shop factory similar ti mp09. oh and the quality is exactly the same


Which I don't know if that is truly the case, but My Star Saber's quality is very very nice. No loose arm joints like EMGO316 had issues with while making him hold his shield. So I bought Testors Chrome Silver paint (which is the closest to the paint used by TT) and painted the blotchy greyish silver under the eyes, and it looks great!

But I say all that because until I read that it could have been made in the Hasbro plant over there, that I felt better about my MP-24. I bought it on ebay for a good price, and was worried I got a KO..

The box was original in printing values, but was heavily damaged.. so I am actively looking for a person who has a Star Saber box who doesn't want it so I can purchase it for replacement of my damaged version. I keep my boxes in my closet in a nice storage shelf (I have a walk in closet)..

But is it possible that the MP-05 is not a KO rather an additional Production at that Hasbro Plant? Maybe it's the original figure, and the box was a KO? I mean I gotta think the Hasbro plant isn't that far from the TT one, since we did get molds from the recent MPs right?

Just wondering what you guys think about that.

Edit: My laser guns of diecast on the front of the shoulders in flight V-Star mode are bent tho.. so is there a way to detach the missile housing covers and unscrew the metal guns to bend them maybe in hot water?? any help to fix my Star Saber's guns on his shoulders would be much appreciated
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:41 am

The Toy being unlicensed is not a confirmed fact. The release is illigitimate, proven by the box, but a toy being licensed is is up for debate. What makes a toy physically real and not a copy or a fake is the mold use.


I am sorry but no. Licensing is defined as an agreement (a contract) between one company holding the intellectual property of a product and the other one being the manufacturer. The exact terms of the contract are well defined, including the packaging, the colors, the materials to use and the amount of toys to produce. Everything beyond the scope of this contract is unlicensed.

That means that even a toy produced with the same molds, with the same plastics and the proper packaging could be unlicensed if produced in an amount exceeding the one defined in the agreement.

Of course, such toy would be very hard (even impossible) to discern from a licensed one. But in our case, this is much easier, the box is fake, so that makes the toy illegitimate AND unlicensed.

If you are not convinced you may ask the same question to anyone with a basic legal background. You may also ask to grading companies (AFA and others) if they would accept to grade such toy, and if not, why ?

And it really seems like the factory linked with Lena is using the real legitimate mold from Takara.


So looking at that, it makes far more sense that the factory is using the legitimate MP Megatron mold (which had been cleaned up recently to make the gold Megatron) to make the MP Megatrons we see sold on Lena. They were most probably not told to make more and Takara most probably sees none of the money when one is sold, making it all illigitimate from a business point of view.


I am sorry again, but there are a lot of "it seems" or "it makes sense", but no evidence. These are all contextual clues, not proofs. I could find several other explanations about why Lena did not list anything during one year (she stopped selling everything, not just only TFs) or why she is selling masterpieces Bumblebee now (and it is interesting to note that Lena has recently got a negative feedback for selling a fake MP-21R...).

But them using the same mold means this toy is licensed.


Certainly not. See above.

Because if the toys ss the same as the original release in terms of production, and that toy was licensed, then its all just semantics.


Okay I will try to adopt your point of view. Let's say that these toys are "real" in the sense they are using the same molds.

Yet, given that there is no contract obligations, you have 0 guarantee that the company used plastics validated by Takara, or the proper metals, etc... So yes, in best case you end up with a product accurate (in proportions) to the original/licensed toy, but you have no idea of the quality associated to your toy. And given that the manufacturer is acting outside of the law, chances are they cut cost on material quality.

Licensing contract defines everything, not just the mold.

Anyways, there was an analysis done by Jordan Rouse‎ of the Talk Transformers facebook group who wanted to make sure his toy was legitimate (he had bought from Lena) and it turns out to be exactly the same to the legitimate releases. However, as I argued with him, that doesnt mean he has a legitimate release since his box is fake.


That's interesting, because there are several key points here. The toy is accurate, but obviously unlicensed (so a fake). Which also means that Lena has (again) consistently sold unlicensed toys as real Takara products...

Do you have a link to this analysis ?

Looking at all the evidence presented, what makes most sense to me is that the factoy kept making more toys using the legit molds to make some extra money. Same with the casettes.


Yup. So they are stricly unlicensed and fakes (but I agree, everyone will define fake differently, for me as for most of collectors, fake=unlicensed).
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Pilgrim76 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:54 am

Hmmmm... interesting.. Now I have the Original Release of the MP-05 when it first came out, same with the MP-01 I have the first run of that from Takara Tomy as well..


Maybe you and William could both post pictures of your MP-05 toys ? William has the one from Lena, so any obvious molding differences would show up.


About your MP-24, I can't really tell. This is a toy I am planning to purchase soon, and I've seen plenty of KOs on ebay (advertised as such). I feel that for this one, I should probably look on BBTS.

Do you have the name of the ebay seller from who you purchased your MP-24. Just looking at what he is selling, the price or the amount of MP-24 he has in stock may tell you if you have a chance to have a KO or not. If you got it for half its usual price, from a chinese reseller with 30 MP-24 in stock, and listing other KO MPs, then you probably got a KO.

Keep in mind that KOs are really difficult to spot in some cases.
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Re: Masterpiece Megatron KO?

Postby Tyrannacon » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:11 am

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I do remember that Scorponok KO that was mentioned by this site a while ago regarding how it was difficult somewhat to discern it from the original, but it had easier ways to tell for it being a KO than in this scenario. I'm now more reluctant to buy from Lena here. I do watch her auctions periodically and I mean she has good/decent deals, but the fact it's KO is just... I always see KO having an inferior quality to the real thing. Even though that's not always true itself to a point. Just the big thing is I'm sure the QA stuff is not the same and less care involved in that.
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