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Capt.Failure wrote:

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:I don't remember much of anything from the one time I watched Pearl Harbor, which probably says a lot about the movie. All in all, it was literally quite forgettable.

As for ROTF, it was a shame about the timing and the fact that Kurtzman and Orci decided to focus on Star Trek. Actually, it's infuriating, when you think about just how much potential it had.

But it's good to know that Bay actually tried to delay the filming for the good of the movie--in my book, that's responsible directorship, especially for someone who's known to be a bit of a workaholic. A pity Paramount refused to listen. The thing about being the director of a movie is that, besides the main actors, you're the face of the movie. And whatever bouquets or brickbats the movie earns is attributed the the director and the actors.

With film criticism becoming the kind of circlejerk you see on Reddit nowadays the so called "Single-man Fallacy" (the false belief that one person is responsible for a large problem caused by many) is trendy to use against Bay. Take for example Prometheus. It went through a complete rewrite with a pretty lousy writer and turned out be be a below par film. But critics love Ridley Scott, so he got a free pass and the writer took the blame.

Yeah; unfair, but inevitable.

Another factor is nostalgia. Scott's been the darling of moviegoers since the 70's, and the nostalgia of Aliens, Gladiator and even Blade Runner remains strong. It's the same phenomenon with Elvis in his later days. He could hardly fit into his costumes, but fans refused to acknowledge the middle-aged, stocky wreck of a man he's become. In their eyes, he'll always be the suave young man with the cool moves.

Bay has become Ridley Scott's complete opposite. He's a director suited to action movies and big scenes, but these movies don't usually get the same kind of accolades as the more "intellectual" films of the same genre. While I'm sure most have watched his movies and enjoyed them, few will admit it.

Capt.Failure wrote:The trend on the cesspool that is Rotten Tomatoes is that Bay deserves nothing but negativity. Due to this if one of his films has issues for outlying reasons (writers, time and budget problems, etc) the blame will always fall on him and him alone. Hell, look at when that extra got hurt during Dark of the Moon's filming. People blamed Bay like he did it on purpose, lest we recall he didn't use the footage from that event in the final film. He repurposed chase scene footage from the Island to replace it. To me it says a lot about him that he wouldn't put that footage in, that he wouldn't want to profit off an event where someone got seriously hurt.

But not in the minds of mainstream and armchair critics. To them Bay can do no right because the hivemind says so.

Exactly. It's been scientifically proven that people tend to willfully pick the same answer according to the decisions of the majority, no matter whether the answer is correct or wrong. It's not for me to judge such behavior, except to say that it's natural for many people to do so.

ROTF as a movie is ridiculously divisive due to its beautifully choreographed action scenes but disjointed plot stuffed with filler, no thanks to Kurtzman and Orci, which is why reactions to it are so extreme. Most have to gravitate to one side or the other, and thus we have flame wars that still rage on despite the movie having been released four whole years ago.

I once said it and I'll say it again. The main problem with the movies is that they focused way too more on the humans. I can understand it for the first movie because we discover them (and I love Shia's act.) Unfortunately, there's way too much human slapstick in RotF and DotM. It feel like poor and cheap filler. Sure, these scenes were way less expensives to shoot than the scenes with the bots. Man, the bots do have personalities and feelings too. If you have to pad the movie, pad it with scenes that make us discover the and so that se care about them. This way, when a bot die, instead of doing "meh", we may actually feel something.

Also, it snowed two days ago. 30 cm of white ****. It's Bay's fault.

-Kanrabat- wrote:I once said it and I'll say it again. The main problem with the movies is that they focused way too more on the humans. I can understand it for the first movie because we discover them (and I love Shia's act.) Unfortunately, there's way too much human slapstick in RotF and DotM. It feel like poor and cheap filler. Sure, these scenes were way less expensives to shoot than the scenes with the bots. Man, the bots do have personalities and feelings too. If you have to pad the movie, pad it with scenes that make us discover the and so that se care about them. This way, when a bot die, instead of doing "meh", we may actually feel something.

Also, it snowed two days ago. 30 cm of white ****. It's Bay's fault.

I agree about the slapstick and the focus on humans, but I have to say DOTM is a step in the right direction. There's noticeably less of it in DOTM than in ROTF.

Personally, I think DOTM has much stronger characterization that ROTF. Sentinel's duplicity as an Autobot turncoat makes him a much more 3-dimentional character than any previous TF movie villain.

You're right that the bots were pretty much background noise in ROTF, but in DOTM I have to say they've made some big improvements. In ROTF, I din't give a damn that Arcee got killed, or even Jetfire (because I just hated the whole old geezer characterization). But in DOTM I did care when Ironhide got shot, and when Optimus killed Sentinel.

Were there under-utilized characters in DOTM? Sure. Shockwave just walked around looking angry and spouting nonsensical lines like, "Drill bot is thirsty." (WTF?) Megatron should have been given a longer fight than the 5 seconds or so it took for OP to put an axe in his head.

But compared to the non-existent characterizations of the ROTF extras like Jolt, Arcee and the Constructicons, DOTM at least has a cast of characters who have at least a semblance of personality like Que, Dino and Laserbeak.

By no means am I saying that DOTM is perfect, but it's an improvement. Hopefully we'll see even more improvement in TF4.

Actually, Kurtzman and Orci are good writes, after all, what they done with Transformers:Prime is a masterpice. Also, original script of RotF was far different from what we got, thanks to Michael Bay. I belive that the worst part of Bayformers is Michael Bay itself. The universe is intersting and have a lot of potential, however, Bay have some strange tendency to belive that he can do anything, and he can do it better. Pretty much all things fans hate in Bayformers are his personal ideas.

About Ironhide: I feel relief when he was killed, to be honest I think he should end killed in first movie, by Megatron. Mostly because when Autobots engade Megatron, Jazz should be already dead. Simply, when Brawl catch Jazz and thrown him away, he should tear Autobot apart instead.

-Kanrabat- wrote:I once said it and I'll say it again. The main problem with the movies is that they focused way too more on the humans. I can understand it for the first movie because we discover them (and I love Shia's act.) Unfortunately, there's way too much human slapstick in RotF and DotM. It feel like poor and cheap filler. Sure, these scenes were way less expensives to shoot than the scenes with the bots. Man, the bots do have personalities and feelings too. If you have to pad the movie, pad it with scenes that make us discover the and so that se care about them. This way, when a bot die, instead of doing "meh", we may actually feel something.

Also, it snowed two days ago. 30 cm of white ****. It's Bay's fault.

Actually the emphasis on humans (more so in the first but still there in the sequels) is thanks to Spielberg, self proclaimed fan of Transformers, who thought audiences couldn't identify with the robots if they were the main focus. This is why I believe you should NEVER let a fan handle an adaptation.

TurboMMaster wrote:Actually, Kurtzman and Orci are good writes, after all, what they done with Transformers:Prime is a masterpice. Also, original script of RotF was far different from what we got, thanks to Michael Bay. I belive that the worst part of Bayformers is Michael Bay itself. The universe is intersting and have a lot of potential, however, Bay have some strange tendency to belive that he can do anything, and he can do it better. Pretty much all things fans hate in Bayformers are his personal ideas.

About Ironhide: I feel relief when he was killed, to be honest I think he should end killed in first movie, by Megatron. Mostly because when Autobots engade Megatron, Jazz should be already dead. Simply, when Brawl catch Jazz and thrown him away, he should tear Autobot apart instead.

No, they really are crap. I couldn't watch more than a few episodes of Prime before I turned off the TV for good. They're widely acknowledged as two of the worst writers in Hollywood today. The script for RotF turned out how it did because those two decided to not finish the job after collecting their paycheck and quitting for the Writer's Guild Strike. They're lazy, no talent hacks.

See, your problem is you don't know anything about how a movie is made, who's responsible for what areas of the film and so forth. Let me educate you with a simple bullet point list:

1: Emphasis on humans over bots - That was Spielberg, as stated earlier in this post. You can also thank him for the Twins if you disliked them. He thought they would be funny and took a play from the book of his best friend George Lucas, the king of offensive stereotypes.

2: The plot/characterization and related problems - That was Orci and Kurtzman. Michael Bay is not a script writer, nor has he ever written one. When they handed him an unfinished script he had to bring in a non-guild writer to finish it mid-filming.

3: Shakey cam - Probably the only thing you can legitimately blame on Bay, and it's highly subjective.

And those are the facts. You need to learn how to allocate blame when it comes to a multi-person production. Blaming the "face" of the team doesn't do anything but make you look foolish.

For me seeing Megatron sitting in the alleyway all depressed was the nail in the coffin.
He was a shadow of the Megatron we all know, in the first one he was his most dangerous.
It took a human to inspire him to fight just to get pawned by Optimus at the end.

thefrenzybear wrote:For me seeing Megatron sitting in the alleyway all depressed was the nail in the coffin.
He was a shadow of the Megatron we all know, in the first one he was his most dangerous.
It took a human to inspire him to fight just to get pawned by Optimus at the end.

A bot he swear he killed got back up, mutilated his body and utterly destroyed his master. He was left crippled and weak but only maintained power due to fear of him. The moment someone stronger stepped up he was quickly forgotten by his compatriots.

It makes sense for him to be depressed. Watching the once proud Megatron wallowing in self pity was kind of satisfying to be honest. Never seen him like that in a Transformers series before.

Capt.Failure wrote:

thefrenzybear wrote:For me seeing Megatron sitting in the alleyway all depressed was the nail in the coffin.
He was a shadow of the Megatron we all know, in the first one he was his most dangerous.
It took a human to inspire him to fight just to get pawned by Optimus at the end.

A bot he swear he killed got back up, mutilated his body and utterly destroyed his master. He was left crippled and weak but only maintained power due to fear of him. The moment someone stronger stepped up he was quickly forgotten by his compatriots.

It makes sense for him to be depressed. Watching the once proud Megatron wallowing in self pity was kind of satisfying to be honest. Never seen him like that in a Transformers series before.

Good points, It's just something that maybe could have been developed alot more in the film. His struggle for power within ranks.

To add, I guess Optimus was different also. He seemed very ruthless and showed no mercy to the Decepticons.

thefrenzybear wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

thefrenzybear wrote:For me seeing Megatron sitting in the alleyway all depressed was the nail in the coffin.
He was a shadow of the Megatron we all know, in the first one he was his most dangerous.
It took a human to inspire him to fight just to get pawned by Optimus at the end.

A bot he swear he killed got back up, mutilated his body and utterly destroyed his master. He was left crippled and weak but only maintained power due to fear of him. The moment someone stronger stepped up he was quickly forgotten by his compatriots.

It makes sense for him to be depressed. Watching the once proud Megatron wallowing in self pity was kind of satisfying to be honest. Never seen him like that in a Transformers series before.

Good points, It's just something that maybe could have been developed alot more in the film. His struggle for power within ranks.

To add, I guess Optimus was different also. He seemed very ruthless and showed no mercy to the Decepticons.

That's often brought up as being "out of character" for him. People making such a claim forget the '86 movie where he gunned down 11 'cons with zero remorse before making an attempt on Megatron's life. And he would have killed him if Hotrod hadn't screwed up. The only thing that changed about Optimus was the shackles of the FCC were taken off once again. The fact he's willing to decisively deal with the villains of the films is a trait more heroes need.

Capt.Failure wrote:No, they really are crap. I couldn't watch more than a few episodes of Prime before I turned off the TV for good.

Then you are one of the few people he said so Actually, Prime have anything what was good in Bayformers, add something from other series and from itself and it avoid some of it's mistake.

The script for RotF turned out how it did because those two decided to not finish the job after collecting their paycheck and quitting for the Writer's Guild Strike. They're lazy, no talent hacks.

Here you are right, but still, Devastator's balls, all this absurdal jokes and very weak final fight are all Bay's own ideas. Without that kind of details movie would be much better. We have a lot of good movies with poor and uninteresting script. It is important how movie is done.

2: The plot/characterization and related problems - That was Orci and Kurtzman. Michael Bay is not a script writer, nor has he ever written one. When they handed him an unfinished script he had to bring in a non-guild writer to finish it mid-filming.

Then how he could change all by itself both RotF and DotM endings? Both RotF and DotM ednings were result of Bay's wision. Aperently, your way the team works is kinda... unimportant in real life.

Considering that thanks to Decepticons Optimus lost his home, most of his comrades, and piece of itself, it isn't suprise that he became what he was later.

TurboMMaster wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:No, they really are crap. I couldn't watch more than a few episodes of Prime before I turned off the TV for good.

Then you are one of the few people he said so Actually, Prime have anything what was good in Bayformers, add something from other series and from itself and it avoid some of it's mistake.

The script for RotF turned out how it did because those two decided to not finish the job after collecting their paycheck and quitting for the Writer's Guild Strike. They're lazy, no talent hacks.

Here you are right, but still, Devastator's balls, all this absurdal jokes and very weak final fight are all Bay's own ideas. Without that kind of details movie would be much better. We have a lot of good movies with poor and uninteresting script. It is important how movie is done.

2: The plot/characterization and related problems - That was Orci and Kurtzman. Michael Bay is not a script writer, nor has he ever written one. When they handed him an unfinished script he had to bring in a non-guild writer to finish it mid-filming.

Then how he could change all by itself both RotF and DotM endings? Both RotF and DotM ednings were result of Bay's wision. Aperently, your way the team works is kinda... unimportant in real life.

Considering that thanks to Decepticons Optimus lost his home, most of his comrades, and piece of itself, it isn't suprise that he became what he was later.

Turbo, I'm going to be frank:

1) I'm telling you facts. Trying to say, "No, you're wrong" in this case isn't changing anything. All you're doing is looking like someone who can't face reality.

2) You're derailing the thread. Stop it.

Capt. and Turbomaster, with due respect to you both, I think there are some slight details to get straight.

First off, Orci and Kurtzman are the producers of TF Prime, not the writers. Their writing staff is headed by Duane Capizzi with Marsha Griffin as story editor. The list of script writers does not include Orci or Kurtzman.

So whether or not TF Prime is a good show, which itself is wholly subjective, is beside the point.

Further info can be found here: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_Prime_%28cartoon%29

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Capt. and Turbomaster, with due respect to you both, I think there are some slight details to get straight.

First off, Orci and Kurtzman are the producers of TF Prime, not the writers. Their writing staff is headed by Duane Capizzi with Marsha Griffin as story editor. The list of script writers does not include Orci or Kurtzman.

So whether or not TF Prime is a good show, which itself is wholly subjective, is beside the point.

Further info can be found here: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_Prime_%28cartoon%29

Oh, well I stand corrected on their role in the show. They're both still hacks, and terrible writers.

Capt.Failure wrote:Turbo, I'm going to be frank:

1) I'm telling you facts. Trying to say, "No, you're wrong" in this case isn't changing anything.

What kind of facts? Anything you write here is strictly against all informations about DotM and RotF production. Bay changed the movie ending, witch is clear, because they delayed a premiere of already done movie and we got different ending than in book and comic,yet you still say that he can't do this "because you telling facts." Unfotunetly you said one thing, reality other. Also, you said that DotM: The Game isn't canonical, because Movie is more importent, while the Game is oficcial game prequel. You saidyou know Hasbro marketing techniques better than Hasbro members itself? Anyone can create that kind of "facts". Sory, but it'shard to belive a words of one person when this words are against pretty much entire internet.

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:First off, Orci and Kurtzman are the producers of TF Prime, not the writers. Their writing staff is headed by Duane Capizzi with Marsha Griffin as story editor. The list of script writers does not include Orci or Kurtzman.

Well, I must agree. I make a mistake here, mea culpa. Yet still, as a producers, they have their right's.

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:So whether or not TF Prime is a good show, which itself is wholly subjective, is beside the point.

That is why, Failure should'ntwrite that Prime low quality is a "fact". That is his personal opinion, that is a huge difference.

What kind of facts? Anything you write here is strictly against all informations about DotM and RotF production.

The kind of facts that are the truth? Denial doesn't make you right. It only makes you more wrong.