Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

I thought loose joints (the hips especially) were endemic to any CW figure, including first releases. Brawl and Dead End particularly come to mind. Weirder, later releases may actually have tighter joints from what I've read

Back to the original point of the thread, not counting the Club uses of the molds, I think they've been straddling the line of mold ennui with the first year. The second year has been retool overdose, but what else could we have expected? Usually a line is just a year long, but CW has been stretched to a year-and-a-half and something has to fill the gaps. In come the filler redecos and retools in the form of alternate parts and some new heads.

Truth be told, I don't mind the first series of reshells as I consider it making the most out of a particular design. That and I like mold "twins". However, that's where the buck stops. Any further use beyond the 2nd head/deco has to be a good one, and not wasted on characters who clearly deserve better or already have better figures. I'm talking Computron and the 2nd wave of '84 'bots here. Now, Liokaiser I don't mind at all, since he was Japan-only, obscure, and hard to find (not to mention Killbison has Gold Plastic Syndrome!).

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Usually a line is just a year long, but CW has been stretched to a year-and-a-half and something has to fill the gaps.

Where is it stated that CW would only be a one year deal? It seemed to me that they put an awful lot of effort into making this last longer than that. They couldn't have put that much planning into a line that they only wanted a year out of.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:I'm talking Computron and the 2nd wave of '84 'bots here. Now, Liokaiser I don't mind at all, since he was Japan-only, obscure, and hard to find (not to mention Killbison has Gold Plastic Syndrome!).

I'm perfectly fine with LioKaiserSoze. The bright colors are enough to differentiate him from the others, not to mention the torso is original to me. My Skylynx will not be a torso in my display.

The Arkbots I also have no qualms with since they're completely optional. But Compy is my bug-aboo. I need to see more, but I'm not impressed so far.

They've absolutely used that damned helicopter mold way too much. I think it works best for Vortex (who it was pretty apparently originally designed for) but is kind of disappointing for First Aid. I get why they wanted to keep him the same mold, but compared to G1 FA, things are all messed around for limb modes (and I'm sure that only bothers me, but it does, if only a little).

I definitely think they should have done Ratchet using the ambulance variant rather than Ironhide using the pickup variant. I kind of dig the Trailbreaker version, though, looks better than Trailcutter to me. Now if only I could find one.

I also think they should have done Smokescreen using the Dead End version, not the Streetwise version. A lightbar? On a racing car? WHAT THE EXPLETIVE?

Battle Core Optimus was an utterly unnecessary, lazy redeco of a base mold that already had two uses, one of which was already the same danged character. Would have been much more interesting if instead (and possibly instead or putting off Leader class) they'd done that one as Ultra Magnus. Give him the proper UM "white Optimus" deco, then do something where as a torso with things opened up he resembles big UM. Hey, even if they'd done that AND leader class it would have been preferable to two Optimuses from the same mold just waves apart.

In an ideal world, at the very least all the characters who are actually meant to combine would get original molds to themselves.

That said, with regards to the "canon" combiners, I think they've done a good job with the reshelling. Dead End into Streetwise works very well, as does Skydive into Air Raid, Rook into Swindle, Hot Spot into Onslaught and Offroad into First Aid. I would have liked to have seen some reshelling done on the helicopters, perhaps making Vortex look more like a military helicopter as opposed to the "rescue chopper with missiles on it" look, although the Takara version is a definite improvement with the extra rotors. Blades really should have come with new arms though. I would have liked it if Slingshot and Wildrider had been reshelled if only for the sake of variety. Hasbro Blast Off is lazy as hell, and really I would have preferred it if they'd made an all-new character/mold for him (as it happens I'm going Takara for Bruticus, assuming that he's still in stock when my wallet recovers from UW Defensor). Scattershot is just dreadful.

As for the "non-canon" limbs and torsos, some work better than others. I actually like Battle Core Optimus Prime a lot (at least aesthetically, I don't actually own him) and think he'd look great with black, white and blue limbs (so maybe Trailbreaker, Mirage, Prowl and Alpha Bravo?). Cyclonus isn't a replacement for the Universe mold IMO (which I really need to get) but is a damn fine looking figure. Prowl looks great, though he needs his shoulder cannons. G1 Prime is just meh, though the Takara deco is gorgeous. Hasbro Mirage is OK but Takara Mirage looks a lot better. Sunstreaker and Ironhide don't really work IMO. Wheeljack is nicely molded but abysmally painted. Smokescreen looks awful and really needs more paint...and really, to be honest, should have been made from the Dead End mold. Trailbreaker and Hound look great though. Sky Lynx looks great as a beast thingy but...questionable as a space shuttle, and whilst his combiner mode looks great, I have heard he doesn't hold together well. As for Victorion...she really deserved original molds. I'll leave it at that.

So overall, there's been some great decisions and some really, really bad ones too. I would have liked to see more variety for certain, but it wasn't TOO bad.

william-james88 wrote:I got:

Takara Superion
Hasbro Menasor
Hasbro Defensor
and I will get Takara Bruticus

I have not repeated any molds in getting these

I have not repeated any molds in getting these

I have not repeated any molds in getting these

Fireflight and Slingshot
Offroad and First Aid
Dead End and Streetwise
Blades and Vortex
Rook and Swindle
Hot Spot and Onslaught

If you discount retools, you still have Fireflight and Slingshot on the SAME COMBINER, and Blades and Vortex to contend with.


The only two combiners in the line with absolutely no repeated molds, on either themselves or between each other, are Superion and Menasor, Hasbro versions, or Superion and Sky Reign. Face it, Will, you can't win.


As for the issue of retools and redecos in Combiner Wars, we learned recently that Hasbro corporate would only approve the line if they could save on how many molds they used. I think Hasbro's designers made the best of what they were allowed to do as far as mold distribution. Some individual molds could have been done better, certainly. There's the recent complaint that Alpha Bravo/Blades/Vortex/presumably Stormclash and Skyburst have too thin of a HFG port which cracks with time, there's Menasor's abysmal torso mode, there is Onslaught's overall lackluster appearance, and there's the truly baffling: Smokescreen using the Streetwise shell, Wheeljack's utter lack of paint apps in his robot mode, and Blast Off's head. But on the whole, I feel that Corporate's stinginess should be blamed more than the designers or marketers who have to promote something they probably know is lackluster.

I mean, do you honestly think every industry person at Toy Fair, Botcon, SDCC, etc. truly believes all the toys they promote are as SUPER DUPER AMAZINGLY AWESOME COOL AND INNOVATIVE as they say? I don't, but they are being paid to sell the positive aspects and so I suspect they grit their teeth through stuff they know may be kind of lackluster and talk like it's the best thing since sliced bread so that they can go home and afford some sliced bread for their family.

That took a weird turn and I'm sorry.

That Bot wrote:If you discount retools, you still have Fireflight and Slingshot on the SAME COMBINER, and Blades and Vortex to contend with.

The only two combiners in the line with absolutely no repeated molds, on either themselves or between each other, are Superion and Menasor, Hasbro versions, or Superion and Sky Reign. Face it, Will, you can't win.

I was referring to the tooling of the head. I pretty much meant i have no straight redecos. But obviously, the Transformers lexicon got the better of me.

As for the issue of retools and redecos in Combiner Wars, we learned recently that Hasbro corporate would only approve the line if they could save on how many molds they used.

Not really, it was told to us differently. We recently learnt that the main designer sold the concept to Hasbo highlighting the easy use of retools to ensure that it could be made. And John Warden, the guy who proposed it, was a new designer at the time, his first design was Gen Whirl. So he based CW on assumption. The fact that Hasbro had less retools before and less retools now means that this rests more on the designer's assumption than Hasbro corporate. It could be he was right, of course, but it was NEVER stated that Hasbro corporate demanded there to be this many retools to greenlight combiner wars. It was just a designer's vision that they greenlit, it was never mandated by corporate themselves.

william-james88 wrote:Not really, it was told to us differently. We recently learnt that the main designer sold the concept to Hasbo highlighting the easy use of retools to ensure that it could be made. And John Warden, the guy who proposed it, was a new designer at the time, his first design was Gen Whirl. So he based CW on assumption. The fact that Hasbro had less retools before and less retools now means that this rests more on the designer's assumption than Hasbro corporate. It could be he was right, of course, but it was NEVER stated that Hasbro corporate demanded there to be this many retools to greenlight combiner wars. It was just a designer's vision that they greenlit, it was never mandated by corporate themselves.

I'd need to look up the exact quote, but I remember reading or interpreting from it that Hasbro was reluctant to greenlight the line, so Warden emphasized the ease of retools and redecos within the line to save on expenses. You could read between the lines to see that he might have planned more molds at the outset, or maybe not. Perhaps there is shared blame to go around.

That Bot wrote:Perhaps there is shared blame to go around.

Oh I am certain that's the case, I just didnt think it was one sided. Here is the quote from John Warden:

When we were launching "Combiner Wars" it was actually a very different time in Transformers. The system was largely unproven and we were actually trying to sell...we were coming off the Thrilling 30 and people that fans were, you know, there was a niche group of an audience. What wound up happening was when we built that line we had to try to...I planned the entire line out in advance and I had to figure out 'Ok, I'm going to reuse these, I only have this much tooling to do this many items', I was trying to spread things out to get the most robust line possible, not only for fans but because I believed that many generations were going to enjoy it too. Fathers and sons, moms and daughters, dads and daughters, there would be people playing together. And it turns out that actually seems to be happening! When you go to the toy store nowadays you don't see a lot of "Combiner Wars" stuff and I think it's because we have attracted an entire new generation of young Transformers fans. I find that really exciting.

So I have thoughts again. I'll echo some I had on the UW Scattorshot reveal in the UW thread:

shajaki wrote:My main focus point are the thin thighs on the Superion torso. I made my peace with them long ago, but they stick out like a sore thumb. So now when I see the mold reused, I look at those thighs and instantly think "Silverbolt".

Good job on the re-molding, but I've been done with that torso for ages already

Then I saw Afterburner this morning.... so lets have a look at him next to Groove (both proto's for fun):





Count the mold differences:
Head, guns, canopy....

Now look at the G1's:



I don't mean to be negative, complainy, or elitist towards 3P, but I just can't help myself. Trust me, I love all the original molds that CW and UW has given us, but I cringe now when I see a "new" combiner. There has not been nearly enough changed on this figure to make me believe this is Afterburner. Those two G1 bikes are worlds apart, and this new proto is simply not that.

But hey, color might make all the difference and I may end up eating my own words again like I did about Bruticus. Only time will tell

shajaki wrote:I don't mean to be negative, complainy, or elitist towards 3P, but I just can't help myself. Trust me, I love all the original molds that CW and UW has given us, but I cringe now when I see a "new" combiner. There has not been nearly enough changed on this figure to make me believe this is Afterburner. Those two G1 bikes are worlds apart, and this new proto is simply not that.

But hey, color might make all the difference and I may end up eating my own words again like I did about Bruticus. Only time will tell

That has become the norm unfortunately: if two characters have the same type of vehicle, it's certain they'll be retools. No matter the cosmetic differences or the fact they were different molds back in G1.

In my list of CW/UW retool/reshells I use these generic terms to discern between types of mold (for car models, I use the model of the first shell):

Harrier Jet: Firefly/Quickslinger
Formula 1: Drag Strip/Mirage
Helicopter: Blades/Vortex
Tank: Brawl
F-series Jet: Skydive/Air Raid
Lamborghini: Breakdown/Wheeljack
Ferrari: Dead End/Streetwise
4WD: Offroad/First Aid
Army Carrier: Rook/Swindle

Motorcycle: Groove/Afterburner
Space Shuttle: Blast Off/Strafe

Goes a long way towards acceptance of CW retools (and how far Hasbro will go to save a buck)

shajaki wrote:
I don't mean to be negative, complainy, or elitist towards 3P, but I just can't help myself. Trust me, I love all the original molds that CW and UW has given us, but I cringe now when I see a "new" combiner. There has not been nearly enough changed on this figure to make me believe this is Afterburner. Those two G1 bikes are worlds apart, and this new proto is simply not that.

I dont think you are being negative, I feel similarly but my feelings go beyond all this combiner wars stuff and into a general mindset instead. Look at the club for instance. This was something established for fans bt all it gives are repaints, which cost more than twice as much as retail releases. And eventually end up obsolete. Hasbro themselves have stated that they will give the go ahead for the club to make a repaint of a figure they would eventually release as a fully new sculpt (ie Rewind). The subscription serve this year is simply more combiners using the same molds and only changing the heads. This is no different than what Hasbro has done with the two random autobot combiners (especially the first since all 5 are repaints) and fans have gladly given the club money since they just recoloured some molds into niche characters. This is the attitude that is partly to blame for all these retools.

If fans are willing to pay a lot of money for someone to just turn random molds (that were not made for these characters) into new characters by just changing the deco, then why wouldnt Hasbro capitalize on that. Those autobot teams could have been con excusives of club exclusives but instead we get them as retail toys. So yay? I just feel we did this to ourselves. Everytime we see a new mold that has the slightest look of another character's alt mode, fans clamour for a redeco. WHy not just wait for that character to get its proper toy that was made for him.

Like with Chromedome


Transformers Subscription Service Chromedome Gallery



Or Rewind


Transformers Subscription Service Rewind Gallery




I just mean to show that the problem that started thie thread has been around for a while and that the people paying for the toys are to blame. We let it happen and we keep clamouring fo redecos. Turning Jetfire into Thundercracker still sounds like a waste to me, but you also had everyone going "well I hope they also make thndercracker and starscream". Thats the same as telling Hasbro to take their money for more repaits. Thank God Takara has pride in their work and actually cares enough about the brand that they will go the extra mile to make things more unique and truly celebrate the characters portrayed in the molds.

EDIT: I just realized how minimal that paint job was on the club's rewind. Looks like a standard Hasbro release. Pretty nuts how buying the other two toys in that pic costs as much as buying that toy.

Eeh... to me, when you're doing an entire line dedicated to Scramble City combiners, which by definition require a ton of figures coming out all with a very specific height, not to mention having four modes (three for torsos), you're gonna need to make some sacrifices. I've been pretty happy with how it's turned out so far.
Really the biggest disappointment has been that Blades wasn't retooled to be able to use his namesake as swords. Just give the little psychopath what he wants

Has anyone counted how many figures come out yearly now vs. how many came out yearly back in the 80's?

I think (though I might be wrong) that part of the problem is that the 80's figures allowed for more variety because they were cheaper to produce. Groove and Afterburner were definitely not on the scale the new versions are so they could afford to be totally different. Plus, if you look at the total number of Transformers figures, not just Generations but all the concurrent lines, it'll probably be a wide range of different molds. Hasbro knows people want additional characters in a line like Generations but ins't going to pump even more money into it. The choice would be repaints or nothing because they have enough molds for a year. The repaints are basically a bonus.

Quality over quantity. I'd be much happier with less figures, but more original molds in the line. It's not really a bonus if it's crap.


Hasbro would have been far better served to do a whole line of combiners or headmasters, and just kept the line Generations with these figures spread out here and there.

Wait, did someone say they wanted more repaints? How about expensive exclusive ones?

Here are 4 new officially licensed CW repaints:

Mavel G1 Ratchet



G2 Ratchet



Rescue Bot Medix



G1 Ratchet



There is also SG Rathet in this shot of all 5 toys:





Will these count when someone looks at how much these molds were redeco'd?

I wonder how completionists feel about this.

This kind of **** is why I stopped being a completionist long before marriage and kids would have forced me too.

The only complaint I have about those Ratchets is why is the center of the chest black? They did the same thing on Ironhide too. Wouldn't white or grey oven red have worked better on Ratchet?

Also, all this talk of redecos has me thinking. Why haven't we gotten G2 Devastator yet?

Kurona wrote:Eeh... to me, when you're doing an entire line dedicated to Scramble City combiners, which by definition require a ton of figures coming out all with a very specific height, not to mention having four modes (three for torsos), you're gonna need to make some sacrifices. I've been pretty happy with how it's turned out so far.
Really the biggest disappointment has been that Blades wasn't retooled to be able to use his namesake as swords. Just give the little psychopath what we wants

This is kind of the point I think we need to look at here. In the course of a year and a half we will have gotten roughly 9 "unique" combiner teams from Hasbro alone, 6 of whom are in the retail line. That's 45 figures, 36 of which have to work around becoming a robot, a vehicle, an arm, and a leg. On top of that each limb bot has to be able to work with any of the others at any given time in either limb form. I dont believe its a matter of cheaping out, I think it's a matter of having to do a LOT in a very small amount of time.

william-james88 wrote:Will these count when someone looks at how much these molds were redeco'd?

To me, it does not. It's simply a white First Aid/Ratchet released five times, and painted and decoed not by Hasbro, but by fans. I do acknowledge all 5 as separate Club releases, but to keep my CW/UW retool lists a bit less cluttered (I had to split it between Hasbro, TakaraTomy and FunPub releases the other day!), I count only two: Ratchet and Medix.

Speaking of counting releases, so far my total count up to Liokaiser is:

Powerglide/Viper
Hasbro: 3
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 2

Blackjack/Rodimus
Hasbro: 3
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 2

Groove (Legends Class)
Hasbro: 3
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 1

Shockwave
Hasbro: 2
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 1

Firefly
Hasbro: 6
FunPub: 1
TakaraTomy: 2

Drag Strip
Hasbro: 3
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 2

Vortex
Hasbro: 6
FunPub: 1
TakaraTomy: 2

Brawl
Hasbro: 5
FunPub: 1
TakaraTomy: 1

Skydive/Air Raid
Hasbro: 7
FunPub: 3
TakaraTomy: 4

Breakdown/Wheeljack
Hasbro: 5
FunPub: 1
TakaraTomy: 3

Dead End/Streetwise
Hasbro: 9!
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 4

Offroad/First Aid
Hasbro: 4
FunPub: 3-7
TakaraTomy: 3

Rook/Swindle
Hasbro: 4
FunPub: 2
TakaraTomy: 3

Groove/Afterburner (Deluxe)
Hasbro: 2
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 2

Blast Off/Strafe
Hasbro: 0
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 2

Optimus Prime/Motormaster
Hasbro: 4
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 3

Silverbolt/Cyclonus
Hasbro: 4
FunPub: 1
TakaraTomy: 3

Hot Spot/Onslaught
Hasbro: 4
FunPub: 1
TakaraTomy: 2

Sky Lynx
Hasbro: 2
FunPub: 0
TakaraTomy: 0

The Custom Class figure is neat, if I were buying I certainly wouldn't buy all five. Just the G1 Ratchet. That said, this sucks because not only do I not want to pay that price for a CW Ratchet, I don't want to build and paint the damn thing myself