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Salt Water: Our next major fuel source?

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Salt Water: Our next major fuel source?

Postby The Happy Locust » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:48 pm

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Original story:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle, as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years."

But researching its potential will take time and money, he said. One immediate question is energy efficiency: The energy the RF generator uses vs. the energy output from burning hydrogen.

Dr. Roy said he's scheduled to meet tomorrow with U.S. Department of Energy and Department of Defense officials in Washington to discuss the discovery and seek research funding.

Mr. Kanzius said he powered a Stirling, or hot air, engine with salt water. But whether the system can power a car or be used as an efficient fuel will depend on research results.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Dr. Roy said. "The potential is huge.

"In the life sciences, the role of water is infinite, and this guy is doing something new in using the most important and most abundant material on the face of the earth."

Mr. Kanzius' discovery was an accident.

He developed the RF generator as a novel cancer treatment. His research in targeting cancer cells with metallic nanoparticles then destroying them with radio-frequency is proceeding at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

Manuscripts updating the cancer research are in preparation for publication in coming months, Mr. Kanzius said.

While Mr. Kanzius was demonstrating how his generator heated nanoparticles, someone noted condensation inside the test tube and suggested he try using his equipment to desalinate water.

So, Mr. Kanzius said, he put sea water in a test tube, then trained his machine on it, producing an unexpected spark. In time he and laboratory owners struck a match and ignited the water, which continued burning as long as it remained in the radio-frequency field.

During several trials, heat from burning hydrogen grew hot enough to melt the test tube, he said. Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced various temperatures and flame colors.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Dr. Roy said of salt water. "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

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Postby Senor Hugo » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:01 am

Now, if only I can get my car to run on salt water instead of gas, I'll be all set.
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Postby Shadowman » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:41 am

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Do you hear that? That is the sound of the Oil Companies shitting their pants, and our wallets giving a sigh of relief.

Think about it, car that uses salt may cost a crap-ton, sure. But Earth is somewhere around 70% water. What would fuel cost? Half a cent to the gallon?
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Postby Sledge » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:59 am

Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.
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Postby adamantNEO » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:29 am

I ran across this article yesterday and thought it was a joke at first. I got the chills thinking about this and it's probably one of the most exciting things I've read recently. Aside from Russia apparently disolving their government.

I think Sledge will be right on this one. Every legitimate chance that's been developed to get us off oil has been bought up by the oil companies or car companies themselves.

Maybe we'll see it in limited release in our lifetimes but most likely someone will sit on this or "determine it's not cost effective." and it'll never see your local car lot.
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Postby The Happy Locust » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:41 am

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The fun thing is this is technically the same concept as a water-fueled car. The difference here is the method for breaking down the chemical bonds. Here's hoping this doesn't get swept under the rug.
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Postby E.P.Y.A.R.M.S. » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:48 am

this is pretty cool, reminds me of something. At my college, over the summer they invented a battery that is paper thin that generates electricity by being put in an electrolyte solution. SO this means it can run on salt water, urine, Gatorade, even blood.
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Postby adamantNEO » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:12 am

Man I hope I can get one of those batteries!!! Finally I'd have an excuse to have kept all these Mountain Dew bottles filled with urine.

When the day comes that the world is powered by urine I'll be KING!!! :P
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Postby adamantNEO » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:12 am

Man I hope I can get one of those batteries!!! Finally I'd have an excuse to have kept all these Mountain Dew bottles filled with urine.

When the day comes that the world is powered by urine I'll be KING!!! :P
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Postby Dr. Caelus » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:41 am

I don't see this being something that will be installed in a vehicle as the journalists were suggesting - without knowing exactly how much electricity it uses, I can't say for sure, but it seems unlikely. It would certainly require a large battery - one that would probably have to be charged from an electrical grid powered by a coal plant. I mean, it has to maintain that Radio nonstop, as opposed to only firing sparkplugs every so often.

What this certainly is is a new approach to liberating Hydrogen from water.

Hydrogen is a great potential fuel source, and would hypothetically burn clean, so Hydrogen fueled cars sound like the ideal. Problem is, all that Hydrogen is in water, and it takes roughly more energy to get the Hydrogen out of the water than you get back when you recombine the two in combustion. So at the moment, Hydrogen powered cars are actually Coal powered cars - the Hydrogen is effectively just a medium for transmitting the energy in the coal to the car.

Hydrogen is such a juicy prospect though that many are trying to find ways to circumvent the problem or make it more efficient - one of my wife's grad professors is experimenting with focusing sunlight to break down water in non-photovoltaic solar-powered Hydrogen manufacture facilities.

So, the question is this - does his RF machine consume less electricity (burn less coal) than a traditional Hydrogen manufacturing system creating the same amount of Hydrogen? I think it should - there should be a lot less thermal waste involved, making it preferable to the current status quo.

Unless you can replace the Coal plant though, you still haven't achieved much environmentally speaking. I suppose strategically coal is preferable to Oil because there is more of it AFAIK, and environmentally it is easier to filter the exhaust from one Coal Plant than 6,000 cars...

Now what would be really nice, is if they could make that old tidal-power system work (a coastal hydroelectric plant). You'd have your power source and your saltwater in one spot. I would say you could build Oil-Derrick-like structures over submerged volcanic vents for geothermal power, but given the environmental consequences, that seems unlikely.
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Postby The Happy Locust » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:19 pm

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Weapon: Black Magic
Caelus wrote:I don't see this being something that will be installed in a vehicle as the journalists were suggesting - without knowing exactly how much electricity it uses, I can't say for sure, but it seems unlikely. It would certainly require a large battery - one that would probably have to be charged from an electrical grid powered by a coal plant. I mean, it has to maintain that Radio nonstop, as opposed to only firing sparkplugs every so often.

What this certainly is is a new approach to liberating Hydrogen from water.

Hydrogen is a great potential fuel source, and would hypothetically burn clean, so Hydrogen fueled cars sound like the ideal. Problem is, all that Hydrogen is in water, and it takes roughly more energy to get the Hydrogen out of the water than you get back when you recombine the two in combustion. So at the moment, Hydrogen powered cars are actually Coal powered cars - the Hydrogen is effectively just a medium for transmitting the energy in the coal to the car.

Hydrogen is such a juicy prospect though that many are trying to find ways to circumvent the problem or make it more efficient - one of my wife's grad professors is experimenting with focusing sunlight to break down water in non-photovoltaic solar-powered Hydrogen manufacture facilities.

So, the question is this - does his RF machine consume less electricity (burn less coal) than a traditional Hydrogen manufacturing system creating the same amount of Hydrogen? I think it should - there should be a lot less thermal waste involved, making it preferable to the current status quo.

Unless you can replace the Coal plant though, you still haven't achieved much environmentally speaking. I suppose strategically coal is preferable to Oil because there is more of it AFAIK, and environmentally it is easier to filter the exhaust from one Coal Plant than 6,000 cars...

Now what would be really nice, is if they could make that old tidal-power system work (a coastal hydroelectric plant). You'd have your power source and your saltwater in one spot. I would say you could build Oil-Derrick-like structures over submerged volcanic vents for geothermal power, but given the environmental consequences, that seems unlikely.


I believe a lot of that was addressed in the article. This is still a theory that has to be demonstrated to the energy commissions. Fingers crossed.
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Postby Nemesis Cyberplex » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:11 pm

This sounds almost too good to be true. Hope when they put them into cars, tough, the engines don't rust out. BTW, what would happen to the salt in the salt water? would it just sit there & build up?

On the plus side, if your car was turned off, you wouldn't have to worry about the fuel tank exploding. Hell, you could smoke while filling up at the salt water(formally known as gas) station.
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Postby Dr. Caelus » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:34 pm

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:This sounds almost too good to be true. Hope when they put them into cars, tough, the engines don't rust out. BTW, what would happen to the salt in the salt water? would it just sit there & build up?


We'd probably use it. Cleaning the crud from the bottom of the tanks in the Hydrogen Plant would be easier than mining it. And salt is something humans never seem to get enough of. Especially in Missouri.

If you were actually carrying out the process in a car, you'd have to clean it out regularly. I can't think of a way to sweep the salt out into a trap or something though, so it would be collecting in the engine itself, which would obviously be bad... Of course, you could flush it pretty effectively just with some fresh water. And then you'd have more saltwater to use...

:-?
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Postby Matrix. » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:09 pm

Sledge wrote:Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.


100% correct. Economy and profit are higher on the 'need' list than a healthy planet.
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Postby Nugget » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:18 pm

Matrix. wrote:
Sledge wrote:Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.


100% correct. Economy and profit are higher on the 'need' list than a healthy planet.


Count me in with this chain of thought. My children's children will probably never see this technology so long as an ounce of oil exists on the planet.

If I was that scientist I would stash my research documents in multiple places, hire a team of mercs as body guards, and then another team to guard those body guards.

Naaaa I'm not paranoid :shock:
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Postby Dr. Caelus » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:33 pm

Nugget wrote:
Matrix. wrote:
Sledge wrote:Do you hear that? It's the sound of the oil companies buying the rights to this research, ensuring no one ever hears of it again.


100% correct. Economy and profit are higher on the 'need' list than a healthy planet.


Count me in with this chain of thought. My children's children will probably never see this technology so long as an ounce of oil exists on the planet.


:lol:

You think there will still be an ounce of oil on the planet when you have grand kids?

[I kid, even if I were as paranoid as the rest of you, I'd still figure that altenergy will come out in full force before we run out of oil - there's a certain point at which our need for plastic will outweigh our need for fossil fuel.]
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Postby Matrix. » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:39 pm

I'd actually try and take some kind of moral high ground, patent it and refuse to sell. I'd then try and get cars to run on it and such and begin a crusade from that.
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Postby Nemesis Cyberplex » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:43 pm

Matrix. wrote:I'd actually try and take some kind of moral high ground, patent it and refuse to sell. I'd then try and get cars to run on it and such and begin a crusade from that.
I would think that if the guy was initally trying to find ways to cure cancer, he's already taking the moral high ground (Why cure cancer when you could be a plastic surgeon giving small doses of false happiness to clients with insecurities & too much money for a small town to spend in a lifetime?), so I doubt he would willingly trade up for sh*tloads of money.
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Postby Nugget » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:48 pm

You think there will still be an ounce of oil on the planet when you have grand kids?


Good point, and if there is it will be triple digit dollars per gallon.
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Postby Dr. Caelus » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:51 pm

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:Why cure cancer when you could be a plastic surgeon giving small doses of false happiness to clients with insecurities & too much money for a small town to spend in a lifetime?


AFAIK he's not a doctor, he's a retired radio-station owner or something.
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Postby Krsi » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:27 pm

While it is a well known urban myth that the oil companys have kept high gas mileage cars away from production, I would like to point out that every major oil company is currently spending lots of money on alternative fuels (each company on the order of billions of dollars). (They know that they are running out of oil and it is needed for things other than fuel, such as Transformers.)
Plus, as been pointed out, how much energy do you think it takes to run the radio wave generator?
There are many many much better ways to get Hydrogen; they are being perfected all over the world. (Plus it wouldn't be a car that runs on water, it would be a car that produces water)
While this man's discovery is interesting, more than likely it will be a footnote in chem texts basicly saying, it's been done. Hopefully it will actually be a viable way to cure/treat cancer, as much a worthy cause as saving you some money.
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