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Just before I respond, if what I wrote so far could be seen as provocative by provoking responses like yours, Va'al, I think it's a good thing because it is allowing for a more thorough and intellectual discussion.

I tend to challenge aspects of discussion and I admit that it can be risky but in my experience, it tends to draw out good discussion from people who want to discuss as opposed to defend views.

Va'al wrote:Yes and no.

I can see Dead Metal and your point about more variety once we have a bigger cast to play with. But I also disagree with it.

I believe I could sum up my point by saying that if we have to ascribe gender to Transformers characters, why not just assign it randomly? Megatron could be female, for all we know.

(The IDW dealing with gendering and Arcee, especially the Spotlight, is not a good way to discuss the issue, in case anyone feels like bringing it in to the conversation.)

I agree with the idea but the reality is that most fandoms, ours included, as Garth Algar has put it, "Fear change.".

Whether it's re-assigning gender traits, not necessarily strictly gender, to established characters like Megatron, or introducing entirely new characters, it gets messy.

To me, a, if not the, major hick up in discussing and figuring out a matter like gender as a factor in character designs of a brand like Transformers is that it has a 30 year legacy, based in a design direction that includes a deliberate effort in marketing products towards young males.

The standard of male visually identifiable characters was established from the beginning and the natural opposite would be female visually identifiable characters.

It would make more sense for the Transformers to be established with an art direction using androgynous character design, making more sense with the premise of alien/non-human robotic/bio-mechanical organisms. However, again, the brand was developed with the idea of making kids toys that are marketed to boys. This is what brings the baggage of gender roles and values.

I agree that the IDW Arcee ordeal is best left out of the conversation.

Va'al wrote:And again, gender is not reproduction-bound. Transformers don't copulate in the human sense, fine, that doesn't mean they can't indentify with the gender spectrum.


My issue is with the associated gender qualities as you described above.

...

It's a question of normative identification, if anything, and just an easy wait out of a discussion about the values we confer to gender representation.

Why is normative identification for some things a matter of potential negativity? The reason for conformed views is that there is an overwhelming consensus of things like "These are the visual traits that most women/men possess.".

Not every male or female has to look a certain way or adopt certain roles/behaviors due to gender inferred logic. However, there is precedence for such norms in every major modern culture.

The basic underlying point I've seen by some in the discussion is "Why do we have to conform to female visual traits at all?". I think that an answer is that we don't have to but for sake of clarity in intent of design, ie. Windblade is a fembot, certain visual design elements are employed to make that intent clear upon simple visual inspection.

I do appreciate the fact that when we have clearly feminine character design, some people will view them in a traditional/potentially sexist paradigm(ie. posing them like girly girls, sexually provocative, or with passive-aggressive homophobic inference in the case of Prime Starscream).

I think that's one example of how some people react but there are seemingly at least comparable numbers of people who have the opposite reaction of seeing such things as empowering for the fact that we have more female representation in a male dominated brand. We also have a large number of people, likely the majority, who are indifferent to gender considerations and either think the character/toy design is cool or meh.

I think the importance of how a character/toy design influences, reinforces, or perpetuates gender stereotypes is given more weight than necessary. It is indeed an important factor to consider and discuss but in this particular case, people have reacted to the Windblade character design as if it exhibits negative or exaggerated feminine visual traits.

To me, issues with gender role assignment or identification are symptoms rather than the root of a problem. Getting rid of fembots or overtly feminine character designs doesn't address the underlying cause.

Va'al wrote:As for Hulk/Strika: I was agreeing with you, but you have now raised a point I want to respond to - The Hulk is still following conventional norms of male power representation. Strika is not.

I agree and that's where I had confusion where the Botcon Strika, as opposed to the Beast Machines original, was being represented by an overtly male design(Warpath).

Va'al wrote:But we seem to agree on the fact that Windblade is an inkling of a step forward for Hasbro, Transformers, fans and parts of society. Good.

Definitely. Even though some would not see having a clearly female robot character as a step away from the status quo, I see the addition of simply another female robot character as exactly that.

Hasbro has been criticized for employing a Boy's Toys and Girl's Toys divide in their products so for them to make a fembot as a mainline toy in what is a boy-centric toyline is not something I can disregard.

Va'al wrote:EDIT: A final point, not from me, but with which I entirely agree.

Sprite wrote:I just don't see why some Transformers can't be "female" the way the others are "male". They are technically genderless after all and, Arcee aside, whatever passes for gender comes down to the "pronoun of choice" thing (which is pretty arbitrary). We've got like a zillion Nails who've drifted all over the galaxy for four million years - it's not unthinkable that some of them has adapted the feminine gender as the social norm, is it? And there doesn't need to be made a fuss about it. Face it, any focus on an explanation for gender otherwise is bound to be offensive in some way or other.

I agree totally as well.

Va'al wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:For now, could we see the positive in this? Hasbro made a brand new character, a female character, and she's getting a toy. Hasbro has thankfully already gotten ridd of pink and oversexed designs and is moving in the right direction.

Yes, that was my point a while back too (though I also think that the oversexed part will inevitably happen once fans get the figure).

Again, I agree but a point of contention I have is that the behavior of individuals who partake in viewing or portraying objects such as toys in an oversexed way is the responsibility of the individual, even if the toy itself exhibits over sexualized traits. People have posed their male/masculine Transformers toys in sexualized ways as well. That's an issue of the social, cultural, and intellectual values of the individual.

Convotron wrote:It would make more sense for the Transformers to be established with an art direction using androgynous character design, making more sense with the premise of alien/non-human robotic/bio-mechanical organisms. However, again, the brand was developed with the idea of making kids toys that are marketed to boys. This is what brings the baggage of gender roles and values.

[...]

To me, issues with gender role assignment or identification are symptoms rather than the root of a problem. Getting rid of fembots or overtly feminine character designs doesn't address the underlying cause.

A brief response to these two points, taken as one:

Yes, that is how the brand started, but I think we can all agree that this is no longer the case. Now, in terms of audio/video adaptations of the characters, there is a problem in terms of voice acting, which will reinforce those characteristics which may only be hinted at in the artwork, for example. The voice will be fairly distinguishable.

I do, however, think that the current batch of IDW comics, especially MTMTE and RID, and briefly Beast Hunters are addressing that issue by not making the assumption that genderless means male (Arcee mess excluded). Indeed, Whirl has a holomatter avatar who is female, as does Ultra Magnus - though for different reasons - and the Rewind/Chromedome relationship can be interpreted in several ways. As Sprite pointed out in my citation above, the multitude of NAILs can allow, quite easily, for different societal norms, now that the writers can abandon the original intent, as you put it, of the franchise.

How does this tie in with the topic at hand? Windblade is supposed to make an in-comic appearance, and at that point we'll have to see how the character is treated in relation to the rest of the cast(s). I, for one, would like Mairghread Scott to write something about her, as even Barber is not handling Arcee that well, really.

njb902 wrote:I think it comes down to this, men are more angular while women have softer lines.

Btw men have breasts as well

Exactly! Can't we all just be happy here?

I don't think it's fair to bring up Cybertronian Culture. Saying that they are from another planet and shouldn't have Earthly proportions is like saying the Orion girls shouldn't look like girls, or the Asari shouldn't look like girls, etc.

This was designed as a female with the mechanical approximation of breasts in order to sell toys.

Dead Metal wrote:I never said that breasts are what make a woman a woman, it's more complicated than that. Re-read my post before you decide to put words in my mouth:

I'm sayin' that a woman can be a woman whether she has breasts or not. They aren't necessary. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out an obvious fact your use of the phrases "most human females" and "are part of that" gets close to but doesn't outright admit. Much like actual irl people, a transformer's chest status isn't relevant to whether it's a woman or not.

A thought provoking debate guys, but I must say that Deadmetal pretty much summed up my thoughts/views on the matter.

Debate aside, i agree that this is a step forward for Hasbro, and I hope that the final figure of Windblade piques my interest as much as the designs.

Wow... I've never seen boys fight so much over the presence of boobies!

Here's something for all you anti-boobs. I call her Shebulk:



But I'm afraid she still has bulkheads man boobies, so they're now her butch boobies!




(note: I did not make this drawing, only added blush and a makeshift ponytail-like head attachment. The original artist is J-666 on Deviant Art )

Handels-Messerschmitt wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:I never said that breasts are what make a woman a woman, it's more complicated than that. Re-read my post before you decide to put words in my mouth:

I'm sayin' that a woman can be a woman whether she has breasts or not. They aren't necessary. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out an obvious fact your use of the phrases "most human females" and "are part of that" gets close to but doesn't outright admit. Much like actual irl people, a transformer's chest status isn't relevant to whether it's a woman or not.

But you are, I pointed out why this design has "breasts", and you get all pissy and say breasts don't make a woman a woman although I never claimed that.

She's supposed to look female, the most well recognized and easiest distinction you can notice about the female body, even with close on, are breasts. Ergo, if you want people to imminently recognize a character as female, you make it look like it has breasts. That's not claiming women need breasts to be women, that would be shallow and incredibly stupid, that's being realistic.

What is it about breasts that offends you so much?

Va'al wrote:A brief response to these two points, taken as one:

Yes, that is how the brand started, but I think we can all agree that this is no longer the case. Now, in terms of audio/video adaptations of the characters, there is a problem in terms of voice acting, which will reinforce those characteristics which may only be hinted at in the artwork, for example. The voice will be fairly distinguishable.

Agreed! Unfortunately, it is a case with voice acting that gender implication is going to be present, whether it's wanted or not.

Va'al wrote:I do, however, think that the current batch of IDW comics, especially MTMTE and RID, and briefly Beast Hunters are addressing that issue by not making the assumption that genderless means male (Arcee mess excluded). Indeed, Whirl has a holomatter avatar who is female, as does Ultra Magnus - though for different reasons - and the Rewind/Chromedome relationship can be interpreted in several ways. As Sprite pointed out in my citation above, the multitude of NAILs can allow, quite easily, for different societal norms, now that the writers can abandon the original intent, as you put it, of the franchise.

Totally agreed again. I have enjoyed how the IDW comics have largely avoided gender specific tropes.

Va'al wrote:How does this tie in with the topic at hand? Windblade is supposed to make an in-comic appearance, and at that point we'll have to see how the character is treated in relation to the rest of the cast(s). I, for one, would like Mairghread Scott to write something about her, as even Barber is not handling Arcee that well, really.

Yes, the comic book appearance could open up another can of worms, depending on how the character is handled. Not even for gender but for potential for raising fan ire in a similar way Drift has.

Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?

I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.

Dead Metal wrote:

Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?

I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.

Argh. Spotlight Arcee.

As much as that is the unavoidable elephant in the room, I'd rather they didn't.
Though thinking about it, Jhiaxus and the gang might all blow themselves up, if we're to believe RID 19 and Dark Cybertron (not referring to anything specific, just that Jhiaxus is a major player, but Shockwave is the big focus, so everything from previous stuff might not matter at all!).

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

Thanks, Sabrblade!

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:


Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.

You guys think that perhaps they might be setting up the transformers to someday actually have a reason to be male or female?

Dead Metal wrote:

Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?

I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.

I started hating him when all the other established badass Autobots were running from the Insecticon horde, including the Wreckers, and Drift was justs gleefully jumping around off their heads with that damn smirk on his face.

And then he had the brains to point out a detail no one else seemed to think about.

And then he lectured the Autobots on morality.

Ugh.

njb902 wrote:You guys think that perhaps they might be setting up the transformers to someday actually have a reason to be male or female?

Possibly. Though I hope not.

As I've said with Convotron, the current IDWverse is working fairly nicely with the almost genderless yet androgynous style and concept, and it would be a shame to disrupt it like that. Unless it's handled really, really well!

Sabrblade wrote:

Va'al wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

Thanks, Sabrblade!

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.

Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.

Dead Metal wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Va'al wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

Thanks, Sabrblade!

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.

Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.

I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!

But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.

Va'al wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Va'al wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

Thanks, Sabrblade!

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.

Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.

I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!

But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.

No you said that would be the best and most logical design direction for the franchise.
The thing with them is, they still look and act like males. In universe they might be genderless, but they still look like guys.
Now imagen if they all looked the same, without any familiar features, would it still have been as powerful?
Say if they all looked like this


Actually, for a moment while looking at that, I thought the bot designs in MTMTE looked almost exactly like that, and they do look very close, but they still look pretty male. But, I think I can see the reason behind Roche's decision for the new redesigns, most of them seem to be going in more of a genderless direction (while mostly still looking male), which is genius considering the themes MTMTE brings up!

For the record, I have just as much a problem with (Prime) Megatron, Dreadwing, Predaking, Shockwave, Optimus, and Ultra Magnus all having that "buff superhero" physique as I do with Arcee and Airachnid (holy crap, is that all the gal bots in the Prime cartoon?) having the same "slim supermodel" physique.

...Incidentally, there needs to be more female bots in general.

Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

Which isn't saying much, especially considering they could never get her name right.

Dead Metal wrote:

Va'al wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Va'al wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

Thanks, Sabrblade!

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.

Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.

I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!

But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.

No you said that would be the best and most logical design direction for the franchise.
The thing with them is, they still look and act like males. In universe they might be genderless, but they still look like guys.
Now imagen if they all looked the same, without any familiar features, would it still have been as powerful?
Say if they all looked like this


Actually, for a moment while looking at that, I thought the bot designs in MTMTE looked almost exactly like that, and they do look very close, but they still look pretty male. But, I think I can see the reason behind Roche's decision for the new redesigns, most of them seem to be going in more of a genderless direction (while mostly still looking male), which is genius considering the themes MTMTE brings up!

EDIT
I'm kinda sure I misread/ remembered what Va'al said, and I'm sorry. I'm running out of time, and will re-read what you said once I'm back and less tiered. Sorry for, probalby putting words in your mouth.
But till then I'm going to leave the comment as is, but will likely change it once I'm back, sorry gotta be bried.

Sabrblade wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.

I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.

Guess I should have said "rounded" instead, since most Arcee-styled Fembots aren't as square in their limb design.

Don't worry bout it, in all honesty I'm nitpicking on a minor point, as the toys still carry your point nicely, it's the animation models that differ from it.