SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Built Bot Windblade

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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Erailea » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:54 am

Wow... I've never seen boys fight so much over the presence of boobies!

Here's something for all you anti-boobs. I call her Shebulk:

Image

But I'm afraid she still has bulkheads man boobies, so they're now her butch boobies!




(note: I did not make this drawing, only added blush and a makeshift ponytail-like head attachment. The original artist is J-666 on Deviant Art )
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:05 am

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Handels-Messerschmitt wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:I never said that breasts are what make a woman a woman, it's more complicated than that. Re-read my post before you decide to put words in my mouth:


I'm sayin' that a woman can be a woman whether she has breasts or not. They aren't necessary. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out an obvious fact your use of the phrases "most human females" and "are part of that" gets close to but doesn't outright admit. Much like actual irl people, a transformer's chest status isn't relevant to whether it's a woman or not.

But you are, I pointed out why this design has "breasts", and you get all pissy and say breasts don't make a woman a woman although I never claimed that.

She's supposed to look female, the most well recognized and easiest distinction you can notice about the female body, even with close on, are breasts. Ergo, if you want people to imminently recognize a character as female, you make it look like it has breasts. That's not claiming women need breasts to be women, that would be shallow and incredibly stupid, that's being realistic.

What is it about breasts that offends you so much?
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Convotron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:23 am

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Va'al wrote:A brief response to these two points, taken as one:

Yes, that is how the brand started, but I think we can all agree that this is no longer the case. Now, in terms of audio/video adaptations of the characters, there is a problem in terms of voice acting, which will reinforce those characteristics which may only be hinted at in the artwork, for example. The voice will be fairly distinguishable.


Agreed! Unfortunately, it is a case with voice acting that gender implication is going to be present, whether it's wanted or not.

Va'al wrote:I do, however, think that the current batch of IDW comics, especially MTMTE and RID, and briefly Beast Hunters are addressing that issue by not making the assumption that genderless means male (Arcee mess excluded). Indeed, Whirl has a holomatter avatar who is female, as does Ultra Magnus - though for different reasons - and the Rewind/Chromedome relationship can be interpreted in several ways. As Sprite pointed out in my citation above, the multitude of NAILs can allow, quite easily, for different societal norms, now that the writers can abandon the original intent, as you put it, of the franchise.


Totally agreed again. I have enjoyed how the IDW comics have largely avoided gender specific tropes.

Va'al wrote:How does this tie in with the topic at hand? Windblade is supposed to make an in-comic appearance, and at that point we'll have to see how the character is treated in relation to the rest of the cast(s). I, for one, would like Mairghread Scott to write something about her, as even Barber is not handling Arcee that well, really.


Yes, the comic book appearance could open up another can of worms, depending on how the character is handled. Not even for gender but for potential for raising fan ire in a similar way Drift has.

Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:33 am

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Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?

I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:39 am

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The following are all also female:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Va'al » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:42 am

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Dead Metal wrote:
Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?

I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.


Argh. Spotlight Arcee.

As much as that is the unavoidable elephant in the room, I'd rather they didn't.
Though thinking about it, Jhiaxus and the gang might all blow themselves up, if we're to believe RID 19 and Dark Cybertron (not referring to anything specific, just that Jhiaxus is a major player, but Shockwave is the big focus, so everything from previous stuff might not matter at all!).
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Va'al » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:48 am

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Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


Thanks, Sabrblade! :D

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:53 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
Va'al wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


Thanks, Sabrblade! :D

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby ThunderThruster » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:54 am

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Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Image

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:57 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
ThunderThruster wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Image

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.
Guess I should have said "rounded" instead, since most Arcee-styled Fembots aren't as square in their limb design. ;)
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby njb902 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:58 am

You guys think that perhaps they might be setting up the transformers to someday actually have a reason to be male or female?
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby JazZeke » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:59 am

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Dead Metal wrote:
Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.

Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?

I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.

I started hating him when all the other established badass Autobots were running from the Insecticon horde, including the Wreckers, and Drift was justs gleefully jumping around off their heads with that damn smirk on his face.

And then he had the brains to point out a detail no one else seemed to think about.

And then he lectured the Autobots on morality.

Ugh.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Va'al » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:03 am

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njb902 wrote:You guys think that perhaps they might be setting up the transformers to someday actually have a reason to be male or female?


Possibly. Though I hope not.

As I've said with Convotron, the current IDWverse is working fairly nicely with the almost genderless yet androgynous style and concept, and it would be a shame to disrupt it like that. Unless it's handled really, really well!
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:10 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
Va'al wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


Thanks, Sabrblade! :D

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:15 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
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Dead Metal wrote:You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.
I left out Override because a good enough argument could be made regarding the slenderness of that body-type.

It's the same reason I left out BW Antagony, Universe Roulette and Shadow Striker, Movie Fracture, etc.
Last edited by Sabrblade on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Va'al » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:29 am

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Va'al wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


Thanks, Sabrblade! :D

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.


I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!

But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:57 am

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
Va'al wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Va'al wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


Thanks, Sabrblade! :D

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.


I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!

But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.

No you said that would be the best and most logical design direction for the franchise.
The thing with them is, they still look and act like males. In universe they might be genderless, but they still look like guys.
Now imagen if they all looked the same, without any familiar features, would it still have been as powerful?
Say if they all looked like this
Image

Actually, for a moment while looking at that, I thought the bot designs in MTMTE looked almost exactly like that, and they do look very close, but they still look pretty male. But, I think I can see the reason behind Roche's decision for the new redesigns, most of them seem to be going in more of a genderless direction (while mostly still looking male), which is genius considering the themes MTMTE brings up!
Image


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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Noideaforaname » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:00 am

For the record, I have just as much a problem with (Prime) Megatron, Dreadwing, Predaking, Shockwave, Optimus, and Ultra Magnus all having that "buff superhero" physique as I do with Arcee and Airachnid (holy crap, is that all the gal bots in the Prime cartoon?) having the same "slim supermodel" physique.

...Incidentally, there needs to be more female bots in general.

Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

Which isn't saying much, especially considering they could never get her name right.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:01 am

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Dead Metal wrote:
Va'al wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Va'al wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:

[lots of images]

Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


Thanks, Sabrblade! :D

There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.



Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.

The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.


I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!

But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.

No you said that would be the best and most logical design direction for the franchise.
The thing with them is, they still look and act like males. In universe they might be genderless, but they still look like guys.
Now imagen if they all looked the same, without any familiar features, would it still have been as powerful?
Say if they all looked like this
Image

Actually, for a moment while looking at that, I thought the bot designs in MTMTE looked almost exactly like that, and they do look very close, but they still look pretty male. But, I think I can see the reason behind Roche's decision for the new redesigns, most of them seem to be going in more of a genderless direction (while mostly still looking male), which is genius considering the themes MTMTE brings up!

EDIT
I'm kinda sure I misread/ remembered what Va'al said, and I'm sorry. I'm running out of time, and will re-read what you said once I'm back and less tiered. Sorry for, probalby putting words in your mouth.
But till then I'm going to leave the comment as is, but will likely change it once I'm back, sorry gotta be bried.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby ThunderThruster » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:04 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
ThunderThruster wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body. ;)


I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.


Guess I should have said "rounded" instead, since most Arcee-styled Fembots aren't as square in their limb design. ;)


Don't worry bout it, in all honesty I'm nitpicking on a minor point, as the toys still carry your point nicely, it's the animation models that differ from it.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Va'al » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:10 am

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Noideaforaname wrote:For the record, I have just as much a problem with (Prime) Megatron, Dreadwing, Predaking, Shockwave, Optimus, and Ultra Magnus all having that "buff superhero" physique as I do with Arcee and Airachnid (holy crap, is that all the gal bots in the Prime cartoon?) having the same "slim supermodel" physique.

...Incidentally, there needs to be more female bots in general.


Yes, and yes. Thank you. :D
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Convotron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:15 am

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I know this is going off on a tangent but now that I think of it, as far as too much of something and not enough of another, how about age in Transformers?

Bear with me.

One of my favourite characters of Transformers fiction is Kup. I love the idea of, not so much "old", but a grizzled veteran. It seems like Transformers is largely populated by eternally youthful characters. We basically have two main varieties of archetype. Either the older male type(Optimus) or the younger male type(Bumblebee).

Now we do have Ratchet in TFP but as Arcee could be viewed as the token Autobot fembot, he could be the token grumpyoldmanbot as far as TFP and TFA.

Back to gender, what's with the femme fatale archetypes in the Decepticon ranks? I don't honestly remember Strika's portrayal in Beast Machines but that may be a sign of how little impact the character had on me as a kid.

As far as Windblade, I do hope that the character doesn't fall into an overdone archetype. It's not likely the character will get a lot of fiction but if that does happen, as Va'al hopes, I hope that the writing for it is good quality.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:17 am

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Noideaforaname wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.

Which isn't saying much, especially considering they could never get her name right.
The vastly-superior-to-the-cartoon comics did. ;)
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby SW's SilverHammer » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:21 pm

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No one asked, however i'm going to throw my opinion in this den of wolves. >:oP

In real life, women aren't built specific ways. Not all women are built rail thin , like tanks, nor like the 12 foot tall amazon women from futurama. Women's bodies vary as much as men's and there's nothing wrong with that.

Now, that being said, when gender is introduced in transformers it sparks debates on whether or not they have no gender and should be completely androgynous, or have two distinct sexes; male and female. My opinion is that in fiction, once characters start referring to each other by gender specific pronouns; "He, She, Her, His, Hers", then the idea of gender-less robots is thrown out the window. One could make the debate that they only identify with that gender rather than actually share it, which is a good point, until it's mentions that certain character are always portrayed as male, while other are always portrayed as female.

So what does that mean in relation to this mess, basically that if there are two distinct "sexes" female and male, then it would go to reason that both would have features that differentiate one sex from the other. One can also reason, like real women, these fembots would have different body types as well, skinny, tall, short, athletic, curvy, boxy, whatever. Much like how their "male" counterparts also have different body types any where from barrel chested to willowy. Personally i would like to see as much assorted body types in "fembots" as there are "malebots". However it's a step forward that Hasbro is actually acknowledging that fembots exist in the mainstream outside of Arcee.
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Re: SDCC 2013 Coverage: First Look at Transformers Fan Bulit Bot Windblade

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:32 pm

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Wow, OK, looks like I have to apologize to Va'al, I went back through the comments and couldn't find one where you stated the androgynous design style would be best suited for Transformers, as a matter of fact I even found comments I didn't see before... :oops:
Looks like the lack of sleep and rest did take a larger toll on me than I thought.

Looking back at Nick Roche's old material, and comparing it to the current output in MTMTE, the difference in design are extremely noticeable and obvious. I mean I did realize that his style had changed and become more cartoony, along with something else something I couldn't quite put my finger on. Now I know, and it took me having to look at Neon Genesis Evangelion and Alien to realize what it was, a good deal of the characters are now drawn to look more gender neutral, while a good deal of them still look fairly masculine. It does kinda work, but it does make the ones in question kinda sameish (legs, chest, waist, arms) for Hot Rod, Drift and Tailgate. But, they still remain masculine looking for the most part, I think if they went more gender neutral it would look terrible.

I for one don't care whether a character is super buff, fat, masculine, slim, slender, robust, female, super hot female, etc looking. I like variety, that does not however mean that the tried and true body types (like Prime Megatron, Optimus etc) are bad, they are used so often for a reason and that reason is they are the norm and more numerous. The exceptions and more unique builds we always want are just that, exceptions.
So decrying them and wanting them to all be changed in favor of more fat guys, or skinny ones is utterly stupid. The closest TF to my own body type is Bulkhead, doesn't mean I want the rest of the cast to look like him, nore should they. Especially prime in which the designs are perfectly in tune with the character's personalities, fighting styles and even history. (I've been thinking about writing something about that for a while now, I may do it later after I've gotten some sleep.)

So yes, I'm sorry Va'al for putting words in your mouth.

But I stand to what I said about this particular design and designs in general, so yea the only thing I did wrong was putting words in Va'al's mouth.
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