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Autobot032 wrote:Not counting human kills and casualties? This isn't a fair assessment of what went down, then.

The Autobots were clearly proficient in killing their own kind, but the Decepticons clearly are the winners by sheer numbers. But, since we can't count those numbers, the movie kills aren't the only thing one-sided in this thread...

Oh and one thing made obvious in the series? The Autobots weren't capable of such precision until they met the humans. Prime took off ONE head (Bonecrusher), Bumblebee helped kill Brawl, and he only beat up Barricade. In ROTF, after being with N.E.S.T., we see Prime be a bad ass on a psycho level. In DOTM, almost all of the Autobots were proficient with killing.

Even the Decepticons were going to keep Bumblebee, Q and Ratchet as prisoners until a human told them to kill them instead of keeping them alive.

I'd say the humans have had tremendous impact on the Autobots and the Decepticons, and their numbers should be counted.

That brings about a question I've had: Why would the Cons wait until Dylan told them to take no prisoners? Decepticons in every other TF universe never took prisoners, unless they were needed for something.

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:Not counting human kills and casualties? This isn't a fair assessment of what went down, then.

The Autobots were clearly proficient in killing their own kind, but the Decepticons clearly are the winners by sheer numbers. But, since we can't count those numbers, the movie kills aren't the only thing one-sided in this thread...

Oh and one thing made obvious in the series? The Autobots weren't capable of such precision until they met the humans. Prime took off ONE head (Bonecrusher), Bumblebee helped kill Brawl, and he only beat up Barricade. In ROTF, after being with N.E.S.T., we see Prime be a bad ass on a psycho level. In DOTM, almost all of the Autobots were proficient with killing.

Even the Decepticons were going to keep Bumblebee, Q and Ratchet as prisoners until a human told them to kill them instead of keeping them alive.

I'd say the humans have had tremendous impact on the Autobots and the Decepticons, and their numbers should be counted.

That brings about a question I've had: Why would the Cons wait until Dylan told them to take no prisoners? Decepticons in every other TF universe never took prisoners, unless they were needed for something.

Well, they were weak minded and weak willed. Only the most violent and vile (Sentinel and Megatron) were capable of such concepts. The Decepticons followed their rules to the letter. That includes no free will, no free thought.

Humans changed all that. We warped them, on top of Megatron's leadership.

We were lucky that Optimus was on our side. If the dirty humans and the Decepticons would've worked together, it would would've been the end of all life around them. Megatron was the spark and got the fire started, humanity was the super powered gasoline that turned it into an all consuming firestorm.

Optimus truly did save us from ourselves.

Autobot032 wrote:Not counting human kills and casualties? This isn't a fair assessment of what went down, then.

The Autobots were clearly proficient in killing their own kind, but the Decepticons clearly are the winners by sheer numbers. But, since we can't count those numbers, the movie kills aren't the only thing one-sided in this thread...

Oh and one thing made obvious in the series? The Autobots weren't capable of such precision until they met the humans. Prime took off ONE head (Bonecrusher), Bumblebee helped kill Brawl, and he only beat up Barricade. In ROTF, after being with N.E.S.T., we see Prime be a bad ass on a psycho level. In DOTM, almost all of the Autobots were proficient with killing.

Even the Decepticons were going to keep Bumblebee, Q and Ratchet as prisoners until a human told them to kill them instead of keeping them alive.

I'd say the humans have had tremendous impact on the Autobots and the Decepticons, and their numbers should be counted.

This is about the Cybertronians in question, therefor human involvement has little impact on this statistic in particular. Also, how can you possibly say that a few years with humans turned the Autobots into unstoppable destruction machines? The Decepticons and Autobots have been fighting for millennia, whatever secrets of defeating one's enemy would have been revealed in that time, my friend.

Bearing that in mind, how do the Decepticons, who fought the Autobots for thousands of years and who supposedly won the war for Cybertron, fight so poorly against but a handful of Autobots even with an army? You forget that most Autobots before the war were civilians whereas the Decepticons were almost unanimously soldiers or gladiators. They ignored everything about that and still gave an overwhelming victory to the good-guys every time.

In most movie series or trilogies the bad-guys win at least once to establish that they are a serious threat, example: Empire Strike Back is still considered to be the best Star Wars film to date and we got to see just how ruthless and resourceful the Galactic Empire really was. But in these films, the bad-guys are made of eternal failure incapable of holding even the briefest of victories.

On an added note, in the first film it was established that the Decepticons had an energy-based shielding around their chassis making them near invulnerable to small-arms fire and required much heavier ordnance to harm them. In the subsequent films they ignore this pre-established fact and just make it so they only need to shoot the eyes and they're done. Its called deus ex machina, look it up.

Decepticon_Vandal wrote:This is about the Cybertronians in question, therefor human involvement has little impact on this statistic in particular. Also, how can you possibly say that a few years with humans turned the Autobots into unstoppable destruction machines? The Decepticons and Autobots have been fighting for millennia, whatever secrets of defeating one's enemy would have been revealed in that time, my friend.

How can I possibly say that? Because it's been in the films. In the films, the Autobots and Decepticons had stopped fighting and were searching for the All Spark. For eons they've been adrift in space searching, not fighting.

Optimus and the Autobots had their tailpipes handed to them for the most part in the first film. Without Lennox, the Air Force and Sam, Optimus would've died at the hands of Megatron.

Megatron was frozen in time, he was frozen at a time when war was still fresh in his mind, and so was the blood on his hands.

Decepticon_Vandal wrote:Bearing that in mind, how do the Decepticons, who fought the Autobots for thousands of years and who supposedly won the war for Cybertron, fight so poorly against but a handful of Autobots even with an army? You forget that most Autobots before the war were civilians whereas the Decepticons were almost unanimously soldiers or gladiators. They ignored everything about that and still gave an overwhelming victory to the good-guys every time.

You're thinking in G1 terms. This movieverse is not G1. The whole Soldier/Gladiator vs Civilians thing does not apply here. It was G1 only. These Decepticons won the war because they had much larger numbers. Plus they were led by a leader who was so evil he used The Fallen. Used him. What weak minded fool wouldn't follow him? Plus sheer numbers? Of course they won. You don't need brilliant strategy when you can just kill everything in your path due to numbers.

On Earth, there's billions of us. Plus the Autobots. Plus technology we made from Megatron. With all of that combined, no wonder the Autobots knew how to fight back against a small amount of Decepticons.

Decepticon_Vandal wrote:In most movie series or trilogies the bad-guys win at least once to establish that they are a serious threat, example: Empire Strike Back is still considered to be the best Star Wars film to date and we got to see just how ruthless and resourceful the Galactic Empire really was. But in these films, the bad-guys are made of eternal failure incapable of holding even the briefest of victories.

Not true. Megatron made Sentinel switch sides. Together they slaughtered almost an entire city full of people. That's more than a brief victory. That's a devastating record for the record books.

Decepticon_Vandal wrote:On an added note, in the first film it was established that the Decepticons had an energy-based shielding around their chassis making them near invulnerable to small-arms fire and required much heavier ordnance to harm them. In the subsequent films they ignore this pre-established fact and just make it so they only need to shoot the eyes and they're done. Its called deus ex machina, look it up.

Wow. Condescending much? I know what Deus Ex Machina is. You're just pissed that I'm covering facts that you're unwilling to. I flew right in the face of your bias. There's no need to be rude. I wasn't rude to you or anyone else in this thread. And don't say things like "my friend". I don't know you. I'm not your friend. Don't condescend to me. I haven't done it to you.

Autobot032 wrote:How can I possibly say that? Because it's been in the films. In the films, the Autobots and Decepticons had stopped fighting and were searching for the All Spark. For eons they've been adrift in space searching, not fighting.

Optimus and the Autobots had their tailpipes handed to them for the most part in the first film. Without Lennox, the Air Force and Sam, Optimus would've died at the hands of Megatron.

Megatron was frozen in time, he was frozen at a time when war was still fresh in his mind, and so was the blood on his hands.

To say that machine-based organisms just forget these things after not doing them for a while is a little far-fetched, wouldn't you agree? After millennia of war, no amount of time spent not fighting would ever be cause to forget. Even real world veterans remember how to fight and kill and are still haunted by vivid memories of the horrors of war. In the case of the first movie's finale, the human forces had them outgunned rather than outmatched, in fact the first film is far more accurate to how effective Decepticons can be even in small numbers which lost them that battle. Its more the subsequent films that "screwed the rules" so to speak.

Autobot032 wrote:You're thinking in G1 terms. This movieverse is not G1. The whole Soldier/Gladiator vs Civilians thing does not apply here. It was G1 only. These Decepticons won the war because they had much larger numbers. Plus they were led by a leader who was so evil he used The Fallen. Used him. What weak minded fool wouldn't follow him? Plus sheer numbers? Of course they won. You don't need brilliant strategy when you can just kill everything in your path due to numbers.

On Earth, there's billions of us. Plus the Autobots. Plus technology we made from Megatron. With all of that combined, no wonder the Autobots knew how to fight back against a small amount of Decepticons.

The movie failed to explain that large detail that is so prevalent in the Transformers franchise, if they don't explain these things I must draw from what I do know. Also, it didn't seem very much that the Fallen was being used, he seemed to be very in-charge in ROTF the way Megatron was cowed, obeying his command and his dispair at witnessing his death against Super Prime.

On another note, our billions don't count for much if less than 1% of us are actually soldiers. Human civilians may as well be slow, squishy cockroaches compared to a Cybertronian. Sam killed Megatron the first time only from the sheer luck that the Allspark was too much power for the Decepticon to handle, I wouldn't have called that instance a true victory for humans.

Autobot032 wrote:Not true. Megatron made Sentinel switch sides. Together they slaughtered almost an entire city full of people. That's more than a brief victory. That's a devastating record for the record books.

Megatron did nothing to influence Sentinel's decision, he made it on his own volition, not that his plan succeeded anyhow. "I have deigned to work with you... that our planet may survive! I will never work for you!"

Autobot032 wrote:Wow. Condescending much? I know what Deus Ex Machina is. You're just pissed that I'm covering facts that you're unwilling to. I flew right in the face of your bias. There's no need to be rude. I wasn't rude to you or anyone else in this thread. And don't say things like "my friend". I don't know you. I'm not your friend. Don't condescend to me. I haven't done it to you.

Upon retrospect my words may have been hasty, only because I'm still livid about one of my favorite franchises getting kicked in the teeth in these adaptions and I get over-zealous about pointing out its obvious flaws. For that, I apologize. I'll try to be more civil about this debate.

On another note, I cover all facts as described by the films themselves. Any and all knowledge or lore on the "movieverse" outside of the films is irrelevant to the discussion as it is unnecessary for the moviegoer to have to read these things prior to seeing the film or afterward. If a movie cannot effectively explain its plot without the need for novel adaptations or comics then it has done a poor job telling a story.

Wow- so yeah it definitely is one-sided though I don't think there's a "movie" or "story" based explanation. I think it has more to do with dumbing down the mythology so the average movie-goer can understand. The robots were their characters in name-only. You could have switched most of them out with any other generic transformer and it would have worked just fine. Except for maybe Optimus and Megatron... Maybe.

I think they just tried to show how heroic the Autobots are and show that the Decepticons were really nothing more in these films than target-practice. Just part of only having 3 films to tell a story (in Michael Bay's case) so you figure there will be quite a few deaths without much characterization. It also has to do with portraying the transformers as more of a giant robot monter that fights other giant robot monsters; some good, some evil.

dinojack86 wrote:Wow- so yeah it definitely is one-sided though I don't think there's a "movie" or "story" based explanation. I think it has more to do with dumbing down the mythology so the average movie-goer can understand. The robots were their characters in name-only. You could have switched most of them out with any other generic transformer and it would have worked just fine. Except for maybe Optimus and Megatron... Maybe.

I think they just tried to show how heroic the Autobots are and show that the Decepticons were really nothing more in these films than target-practice. Just part of only having 3 films to tell a story (in Michael Bay's case) so you figure there will be quite a few deaths without much characterization. It also has to do with portraying the transformers as more of a giant robot monter that fights other giant robot monsters; some good, some evil.

So, the Transformers movies weren't made for Transformers fans. I came to that realization in the second one, to be honest, wishing this weren't the case. Its a shame when a film adaptation of a popular franchise alienates its fan-base in "the Search for More Money".

Autobot032 wrote:
I'd say the humans have had tremendous impact on the Autobots and the Decepticons, and their numbers should be counted.

so how do we count all the dead sailors? and at the soccent base?

and while we're at it, why can't the cons have a decent strike force/special ops team like the bots have? the mayhem attack squad, the heavy brigade, the dreads look pitiful compared to the wreckers and the pack

Optimus Primevil wrote:and while we're at it, why can't the cons have a decent strike force/special ops team like the bots have? the mayhem attack squad, the heavy brigade, the dreads look pitiful compared to the wreckers and the pack

Yes..... I was hopeing for a wreckers vs dreads scene. The wreckers came on all bad azz, even "somehow" outrunning 3 autobot high performance cars on a straight away, but did very little other then die pretty cool.

dirk2243 wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote:and while we're at it, why can't the cons have a decent strike force/special ops team like the bots have? the mayhem attack squad, the heavy brigade, the dreads look pitiful compared to the wreckers and the pack

Yes..... I was hopeing for a wreckers vs dreads scene. The wreckers came on all bad azz, even "somehow" outrunning 3 autobot high performance cars on a straight away, but did very little other then die pretty cool.

The 'cons have all these anonymous throw-aways just for the sole purpose of being brutally killed, no matter how cool they may seem at first. Why can't the Autobots also have faceless "red-shirts" to be fodder for the Decepticons? I'm just asking for a fair fight is all.

I agree although I think they did it on purpose (something to do with the next film installment). I just wish there's more balance between the AutoBots and the Decepticons. Next time maybe???

would anyone be laughing if in the next movie they have raised the kill count (for one robot) to topper harley levels? and they were serious about it?

Decepticon_Vandal wrote:

dirk2243 wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote:and while we're at it, why can't the cons have a decent strike force/special ops team like the bots have? the mayhem attack squad, the heavy brigade, the dreads look pitiful compared to the wreckers and the pack

Yes..... I was hopeing for a wreckers vs dreads scene. The wreckers came on all bad azz, even "somehow" outrunning 3 autobot high performance cars on a straight away, but did very little other then die pretty cool.

The 'cons have all these anonymous throw-aways just for the sole purpose of being brutally killed, no matter how cool they may seem at first. Why can't the Autobots also have faceless "red-shirts" to be fodder for the Decepticons? I'm just asking for a fair fight is all.

EXACTLY!

There are like hundreds of Decepticon protoforms in the movie. Why can't we have some protoforms on the Autobots side as cannon fodder?

When I was watching the trailer for the first time, I strongly assume the Autobots are going to have backup to face an army of Decepticons. Instead, its 9 vs 200+.

Autobots cannon fodders would strongly give more value to the major Decepticon characters like Shockwave.

--Decepticons--
-Megatron-
K: 2 (Jazz, Optimus Prime)
D: 2 (Sam Witwicky; resurrected, Optimus Prime)

[/quote]

FOR THE LAST TIME, SAM DID NOT DIE!! HIS MIND WAS TRANSPORTED INTO THE MATRIX (similar to Rodimus in G!)

Slashercon wrote:--Decepticons--
-Megatron-
K: 2 (Jazz, Optimus Prime)
D: 2 (Sam Witwicky; resurrected, Optimus Prime)

FOR THE LAST TIME, SAM DID NOT DIE!! HIS MIND WAS TRANSPORTED INTO THE MATRIX (similar to Rodimus in G!)[/quote]

Maybe he did and was just resurrected by the Primes ghosts. We did hear his heart stopping.

I started thinking about the K/D ratio after seeing DOTM. I agree that with how 'deceptive' the Decepticons were supposed to be in the movie they were clearly misrepresented. The Decepticons were supposed to be the bad guys in the movie. But the good guys 'autobots' ended up killing more people which is kind of ironic. But welcome to hollywood where the good guys always win in movies...smh

Slashercon wrote:--Decepticons--
-Megatron-
K: 2 (Jazz, Optimus Prime)
D: 2 (Sam Witwicky; resurrected, Optimus Prime)

FOR THE LAST TIME, SAM DID NOT DIE!! HIS MIND WAS TRANSPORTED INTO THE MATRIX (similar to Rodimus in G!)[/quote]

You read it wrong. Those are Megatron's deaths, he was killed by Sam the first time.

Slightly off topic, but my biggest peeve is how the Decepticons seem to be largely devoid of depth perception and targeting ability despite being battle-hardened soldiers.

There's a scene during the Egypt fight in ROTF where Megatron literally shoots at the human tanks at point blank without hitting a single one, but in return gets nailed in the chest several times before having to turn tail. Even if one were to factor in the blowing sand obscuring his view, wouldn't that work both ways?

It's the same with the protoform Con's.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm neither a Bay-basher nor Geewunner. Just a neutral fan of both G1 and the movieverse who wanted to state his opinions.

after reading the bio on the box of leader class bumblebee, i think the decepticons were never intended to be a threat if bumblebee killed enough cons to make ironhide lose count, then again the box bios say a lot things that contradict themselves and other media

Optimus Primevil wrote:after reading the bio on the box of leader class bumblebee, i think the decepticons were never intended to be a threat if bumblebee killed enough cons to make ironhide lose count, then again the box bios say a lot things that contradict themselves and other media

I read those box descriptions/bios and take it with a grain of salt. I believe the movie more then I believe a box description.

All and all, on this topic:
The autobots need more soldiers, like in the games, that I agree with. I mean, what would you have loved to see more, shockwave walking all slowly towards nothing on a long stretch of empty street, or shockwave RUNNING down said street, slaughtering hundreds of Autobot troops with his massive arm cannon and sword plowing right through there sparks and decapitating countless troops, as he runs towards prime, and then have optimus finish him off.

Secondly.
BUMBLEBEE.
Why is it Bumblebee that takes down all the badasses? I understand he's a fan fav, but come on! Bulldozer Bruiser vs Cammaro Scout. Who wins? In reality, I think Rampage would have torn him a new one! Same goes for Brawl and Soundwave. I personally think Bumblebee should have been exicuted to prove a point, but, well, what are ya gonna do?

Lastly,
PRIME
WTF Michael? The way he was portrayed towards the end of the film. that just made me angry. Megatron offers a truce, and optimust be-heads him. with just one arm. AFTER getting owned by sentinel. Megatron then owns sentinel. then optimus owns megatron. then shoots sentinel in the head with, what I believe is megatron's gun?
It's like a sadistic killin triangle of One thing owning another, while that one thing gets owned by another thing, but cant own one thing, but can own the thing that can't own the other thing.



that's how confusing that last scene is to me....
Plus they turned optimus into a ruthless brute....

you can add that megatron always offers a choice(he offered death or being a pet to sam, he offered one human for their race's future, then the truce...sure he's going to do a lot of damage afterwards but it's still freaky to think that megatron's the one who keeps his options open) while prime is always "my way"

Optimus Primevil wrote:you can add that megatron always offers a choice(he offered death or being a pet to sam, he offered one human for their race's future, then the truce...sure he's going to do a lot of damage afterwards but it's still freaky to think that megatron's the one who keeps his options open) while prime is always "my way"

I'd prefer not having choices if those are my choices, personally.