The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:32 pm

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Ironhidensh wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:I do agree, comics these days are more mature as a whole media as opposed to when I was a kid


The Dark Knight Returns came out in 1981. Watchmen came out in 1986. Killing Joke came out in 1988, the same year Jason Todd was beaten to death with a crow bar. Gwen Stacy had her neck snapped in 1971, the same year Roy Harper began doing heroin. Tony Stark gave into alcoholism in 1979. In 1993, Superman was killed by Doomsday and Batman had his spine broken by Bane.

And according to your profile, you were a kid when most of these happened; the rest happened before you were born.

It's true, comics are more mature than they used to be. But the change happened decades ago, it is not something new.

Yeah, and it sucks.


No it doesn't. What "sucked" is when Fredric Wertham lied to everyone and got comics turned into sugar-coated fantasy lands where nothing bad ever happens. If the revelation that comics long since shed those unneeded restrictions and that they do not nor have they ever fit your bizarre ideal bothers you...well, can you truly say you were a fan of the medium to begin with?
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Ironhidensh » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:52 pm

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From your perspective maybe.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Ironhidensh » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:57 pm

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Shadowman wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:I do agree, comics these days are more mature as a whole media as opposed to when I was a kid


The Dark Knight Returns came out in 1981. Watchmen came out in 1986. Killing Joke came out in 1988, the same year Jason Todd was beaten to death with a crow bar. Gwen Stacy had her neck snapped in 1971, the same year Roy Harper began doing heroin. Tony Stark gave into alcoholism in 1979. In 1993, Superman was killed by Doomsday and Batman had his spine broken by Bane.

And according to your profile, you were a kid when most of these happened; the rest happened before you were born.

It's true, comics are more mature than they used to be. But the change happened decades ago, it is not something new.

Yeah, and it sucks.


No it doesn't. What "sucked" is when Fredric Wertham lied to everyone and got comics turned into sugar-coated fantasy lands where nothing bad ever happens. If the revelation that comics long since shed those unneeded restrictions and that they do not nor have they ever fit your bizarre ideal bothers you...well, can you truly say you were a fan of the medium to begin with?

I like comics and the more mature series. I just wish it was toned down so I don't have to wait so long to share them with my sons.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:06 pm

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Ironhidensh wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Ironhidensh wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:I do agree, comics these days are more mature as a whole media as opposed to when I was a kid


The Dark Knight Returns came out in 1981. Watchmen came out in 1986. Killing Joke came out in 1988, the same year Jason Todd was beaten to death with a crow bar. Gwen Stacy had her neck snapped in 1971, the same year Roy Harper began doing heroin. Tony Stark gave into alcoholism in 1979. In 1993, Superman was killed by Doomsday and Batman had his spine broken by Bane.

And according to your profile, you were a kid when most of these happened; the rest happened before you were born.

It's true, comics are more mature than they used to be. But the change happened decades ago, it is not something new.

Yeah, and it sucks.


No it doesn't. What "sucked" is when Fredric Wertham lied to everyone and got comics turned into sugar-coated fantasy lands where nothing bad ever happens. If the revelation that comics long since shed those unneeded restrictions and that they do not nor have they ever fit your bizarre ideal bothers you...well, can you truly say you were a fan of the medium to begin with?

I like comics and the more mature series. I just wish it was toned down so I don't have to wait so long to share them with my sons.


It has been toned down. Current comics are far more mature and tasteful than they've ever been, especially after what the '90s did.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Dead Metal » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:25 am

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Comics aren't a medium exclusive to kids, they were turned into one in the 50s due to ignorance, but we've broken free of that.
There are kiddy comics, teen comics, mature comics, porn comics, violence porn comics etc.

Just because they are comics doesn't mean they can't explore themes and subject maters that are appropriate for children. Or should we stop making movies and tv shows for adults, just because you don't want to wait so long to introduce your children to the medium?

I mean my parents didn't demand the entire movie industry to "town it down" just because they wanted to share their love for the Alien Movies with me, they waited till I was old enough for them.

And if you really want your kids to not be introduced to complicated or inappropriate stuff, lock them in their rooms, don't give them access to the internet, and home school them. Because guess what, sex and stuff like that was introduced to me by my mates at school, yeah my peers, long before school or my parents had a chance to.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Dead Metal » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:33 am

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
Va'al wrote:Not that Archie is such a 'neutral' book, really, either.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5899351/archie-is-dying


Doesn't really apply here, that Archie there is not "the" Archie. This Archie was a special spinoff intended for mature readers and dealt with the adventures of a grown up Archie. The original Archie is still alive, and still a kiddy book.
This is like back when everyone flipped out and announced Marvel was killing off Spider-Man for good, neglecting to inform people it was just Ultimate Spider-Man who would die and not the Spider-Man.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:41 am

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Comics are a visual medium for telling stories, writers should be free to tell whatever stories they wish, bound only by their publisher. Now that's out of the way, let's move on. One of the major issues here is that their is parents that don't like the idea of comics containing taboo issues or any mature content (Hello seduction of the innocent; I trust your findings the same as those papers that claim playing violent games will make you kill someone). Regardless of how you feel, these comics have a right to exist, we can all agree on that.

I understand the feeling of wanting to deal with these important matters yourself without outside agencies interfering. Problem is this is the age of information, and I can't talk about American school education but here in the UK, schools teach about drugs, the threat of addiction and sex ed starting at age 7! (This last one is ridiculous I know, but considering one mp thought we should teach porn at schools. ..I feel sorry for public schools). Point is, I don't dislike the comics for telling these stories, no matter the issue, if my kids have questions, I'm right there to answer them. I want them to be able to make up their own minds on matters, looking to all places to draw an opinion of their own. I don't want them to just adopt my point of view just because it's the only one they know.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby shajaki » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:08 pm

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Dead Metal wrote:Comics aren't a medium exclusive to kids, they were turned into one in the 50s due to ignorance, but we've broken free of that.
There are kiddy comics, teen comics, mature comics, porn comics, violence porn comics etc.

Just because they are comics doesn't mean they can't explore themes and subject maters that are appropriate for children. Or should we stop making movies and tv shows for adults, just because you don't want to wait so long to introduce your children to the medium?

I mean my parents didn't demand the entire movie industry to "town it down" just because they wanted to share their love for the Alien Movies with me, they waited till I was old enough for them.

And if you really want your kids to not be introduced to complicated or inappropriate stuff, lock them in their rooms, don't give them access to the internet, and home school them. Because guess what, sex and stuff like that was introduced to me by my mates at school, yeah my peers, long before school or my parents had a chance to.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Va'al » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:23 am

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Quick addition from one of my colleagues (though very much more established than me) on the subject of comics as an educational tool: http://www.theguardian.com/higher-educa ... hange-this
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:01 pm

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Va'al wrote:Quick addition from one of my colleagues (though very much more established than me) on the subject of comics as an educational tool: http://www.theguardian.com/higher-educa ... hange-this

That was an interesting read
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Va'al » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:37 pm

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Murray is, coincidentally, also one of the people analysing the propaganda potential and mass-media diffusion of ideas through comics. He's quoted - to prod something else other than articles - here:

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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:41 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Va'al wrote:Murray is, coincidentally, also one of the people analysing the propaganda potential and mass-media diffusion of ideas through comics.


Propaganda potential? We didn't already master that art back in the '40s with Captain America?

Va'al wrote:He's quoted - to prod something else other than articles - here:



Question: Why are there so many superhero movies?

Answer: Because they print boatloads of cash.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Va'al » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:00 pm

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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Ironhidensh » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:03 pm

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So, kind of going back to the origins of the thread. Over the last couple weeks I've been doing kind of an experiment. And by experiment I just mean paying more attention to my boys as they play. I have two sons, a one-year-old and a two-year-old. my sons have a lot of toys. Mixed in with those toys are quite a bit of what are normally called girl toys. See, my wife's sister has two little girls who are both quite a bit older than our kids. So before we started having kids, my sister-in-law would send us all the girls stuff that they no longer used. She was convinced we were going to have a girl. I'm convinced that because she sent us all this girl stuff, we had two little boys.

Anyway, I mostly focused on my two-year-old. One of his favorite toys is a dollhouse. I don't know what kind of dollhouse, or what toy line it belongs to, just that it's a dollhouse. He likes to open it up and open doors and windows. He also likes to stuff as many of his other toys inside of it as he can, to try and hide them from his little brother. I won't lie, and you can judge me as you wish for this, but it always bothered me that he played with the dollhouse. Not enough to stop him, but still.

All of the other girls stuff, he's never played with. At least he's never played with it now that he's out of the pick it up and stick it in my mouth stage. As for what he actually plays with, he mostly focuses on cars. He likes robots to, but he loves cars. Any kind of car. He gets upset if he sees me transform a car to a robot. He won't touch a single doll, despite my wife trying to get him to several times.

A few days ago, my boys received a castle place as a gift. It works pretty much the same as the dollhouse. It has doors and windows that open and close, the castle itself opens up, and it has rooms you can stuff things into. It also comes with the dragon that I can interact with, I think it's one of those imaginex toys. Since the castle to shut up, he has not once touch the dollhouse. He's just done with it. I even set the dollhouse in front of them one day to see if he would still like it, and he pushed it away.

Our sitter has a little girl my sons age. This little girl also has three older brothers. Their house is quite full of boy toys. I was talking to my sitter about it, and she says that her daughter will rarely play with the boy toys. Even when her brothers want her too, she sticks with the girls toys.

I've talked with other parents about it, and it just seems to me that gender-neutral that he is something we put on children. For the most part boys like boy toys, and girls like girl toys. Of course there's always going to be exceptions to this rule, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with the boy playing with girl toys, and vice versa. Just my two cents after some observation.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Just Negare » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:29 am

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The social opinion of the TF fandom has certainly changed over the past few decades, well, IMHO at least. I've noticed that a lot more girls are happy to declare their like of Transformers - mostly that crud churned out by Mr. Bay.

However, I find I still get the "are you buying this for your son/nephew" when I purchase Transformers toys.

Socially, there's a better acceptance of women enjoying products directed at men than heterosexual men engaging in a fandom for a product directed at women, or especially little girls.

It's that usual gender sterotyping and old timey concepts of gender and sexuality. I don't think it's ever going to change.

Anyway, take what I say with a truck load of salt, I don't have kids, but I do think it's a bit off that we put all tehse adult politically correct sensitivies on kiddies. Let them play with what they want, I don't think a boy playing with barbies is going to be gay, but he probably will get a bit of slack from his male friends if they catch him. There's a lot of peer pressure from kids to fit into perhaps a very biologically imprinted "norm".
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby SKYWARPED_128 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:47 pm

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As much as I support gender equality, I think it should be left out of toys and the entertainment media in general--at least, the over-sensitive political circus that the subject has become.

Positive gender roles is a good thing, but when it becomes heavy-handed and ends up being the driving force of the story or character, it becomes unnatural and forced, and does more damage than good. I've put down more than one novel I initially enjoyed because the author tried to force extreme feminist ideas down my throat by making every straight male in the story either an a-hole or an absolute wimp. And the only positively-portrayed male character in it is gay. The female protagonist in question is made to be beyond reproach, and gets away with the dumbest, brashest decisions.

So when I hear people talking about the need to add feminist values in TF's, I shudder.

To me, the most well-portrayed positive female protagonist is Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor in both Terminator movies. Strong but not overbearing, and confident without being cocky or arrogant.

As for kids, they'll watch and play with whatever comes naturally to them, so why not let them be?

Just my 2 cents' worth.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:38 pm

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SKYWARPED_128 wrote:To me, the most well-portrayed positive female protagonist is Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor in both Terminator movies. Strong but not overbearing, and confident without being cocky or arrogant.


That's not Sarah Conner in either movie. In the first movie she was just a scared young woman being thrown into a war that hasn't even happened yet. In the second movie, the knowledge of said war turned her into an emotionally unstable psychopath who was more than willing to kill an innocent man if it might prevent Judgement Day, becoming more and more like the machines she feared in the process.

Though it's a common misconception that she was written to be a "feminist icon," when in reality she was written specifically to be the exact opposite.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby SKYWARPED_128 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:17 am

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Shadowman wrote:
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:To me, the most well-portrayed positive female protagonist is Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor in both Terminator movies. Strong but not overbearing, and confident without being cocky or arrogant.


That's not Sarah Conner in either movie. In the first movie she was just a scared young woman being thrown into a war that hasn't even happened yet. In the second movie, the knowledge of said war turned her into an emotionally unstable psychopath who was more than willing to kill an innocent man if it might prevent Judgement Day, becoming more and more like the machines she feared in the process.

Though it's a common misconception that she was written to be a "feminist icon," when in reality she was written specifically to be the exact opposite.


Come to think of it, you're right.

That said, in T2 she does present herself as an efficient, hands-on character, and is a "positive" enough female character that I feel should shut the feminist lobbyists up. What I meant by that is, if you were to replace Connor with a male character, it would still natural--it's a well-managed gender-neutral role that isn't heavy-handed with the whole "girl power" thing.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:42 am

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SKYWARPED_128 wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:To me, the most well-portrayed positive female protagonist is Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor in both Terminator movies. Strong but not overbearing, and confident without being cocky or arrogant.


That's not Sarah Conner in either movie. In the first movie she was just a scared young woman being thrown into a war that hasn't even happened yet. In the second movie, the knowledge of said war turned her into an emotionally unstable psychopath who was more than willing to kill an innocent man if it might prevent Judgement Day, becoming more and more like the machines she feared in the process.

Though it's a common misconception that she was written to be a "feminist icon," when in reality she was written specifically to be the exact opposite.


Come to think of it, you're right.

That said, in T2 she does present herself as an efficient, hands-on character, and is a "positive" enough female character that I feel should shut the feminist lobbyists up.


What part of "emotionally unstable psychopath" seemed positive to you?

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:What I meant by that is, if you were to replace Connor with a male character, it would still natural--it's a well-managed gender-neutral role that isn't heavy-handed with the whole "girl power" thing.


If you can replace your female lead with a male one and nothing really changes, then you didn't write a very convincing female lead.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby SKYWARPED_128 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:50 am

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Shadowman wrote:What part of "emotionally unstable psychopath" seemed positive to you?


Better than cowardly emotionally unstable psychopath? :lol:

What I'm saying is, psychopathy isn't something feminists can argue is a negative stereotype specific to women, like physical weakness and the constant need of a man to bail her out. Well, the T-800 is ostensibly a "male", but technically, its a machine.

Shadowman wrote:If you can replace your female lead with a male one and nothing really changes, then you didn't write a very convincing female lead.


It works for T2, though. Whether it's a convincing female lead or not, isn't something I'm going to comment on because I'm by no means a movie expert. Look, all I'm saying is, she's not being seen as a weak female but a tough one. That's all. Finito. Nothing more to it.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Shadowman » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:42 am

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SKYWARPED_128 wrote:
Shadowman wrote:What part of "emotionally unstable psychopath" seemed positive to you?


Better than cowardly emotionally unstable psychopath? :lol:

What I'm saying is, psychopathy isn't something feminists can argue is a negative stereotype specific to women, like physical weakness and the constant need of a man to bail her out. Well, the T-800 is ostensibly a "male", but technically, its a machine.


You didn't say anything about "gender specific stereotypes" before. You just said she was a "positive female character" when in actuality, she's shown being fully committed to murdering civilians. There's nothing positive about that, and whether or not it's a "gender-specific" flaw is totally irrelevant.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby SKYWARPED_128 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:59 am

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Shadowman wrote:
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:
Shadowman wrote:What part of "emotionally unstable psychopath" seemed positive to you?


Better than cowardly emotionally unstable psychopath? :lol:

What I'm saying is, psychopathy isn't something feminists can argue is a negative stereotype specific to women, like physical weakness and the constant need of a man to bail her out. Well, the T-800 is ostensibly a "male", but technically, its a machine.


You didn't say anything about "gender specific stereotypes" before. You just said she was a "positive female character" when in actuality, she's shown being fully committed to murdering civilians. There's nothing positive about that, and whether or not it's a "gender-specific" flaw is totally irrelevant.


Look Shadow, let's not start an argument over this. I guess I should have been more specific, and maybe I should have phrased my words better, but this isn't some court case document or a corporate contract, so I don't really care to put much thought into the details. New thoughts come to mind after I press the "submit" button--it happens. FFS, it feels like you're about to drag me to court over this.

If it's that important to you, then fine, Sarah Connor is a trigger-happy psychopath who likes to kill people, and she's a deplorable, negative portrayal of the female gender. I personally think she's fine within the context of the movie, but then I don't feel too strongly about her being a remorseless killer.

It has nothing to do with what I tried but apparently failed to properly express in my original post (she's tough, but not heavy-handedly so), but it's not like it even matters anymore.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Ironhidensh » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:15 am

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Shadowman wrote:
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:
Shadowman wrote:What part of "emotionally unstable psychopath" seemed positive to you?


Better than cowardly emotionally unstable psychopath? :lol:

What I'm saying is, psychopathy isn't something feminists can argue is a negative stereotype specific to women, like physical weakness and the constant need of a man to bail her out. Well, the T-800 is ostensibly a "male", but technically, its a machine.


You didn't say anything about "gender specific stereotypes" before. You just said she was a "positive female character" when in actuality, she's shown being fully committed to murdering civilians. There's nothing positive about that, and whether or not it's a "gender-specific" flaw is totally irrelevant.

So are you saying you wouldn't kill one dude, to literally prevent the deaths of billions of people. I don't really think that makes you a psychopath.
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:52 pm

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Problem is how many people would she kill to get to that one person who as shadow man said, was innocent (plus in the case of the, his death Actually changed nothing but the date).
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Re: The gender politics of hasbro fandom.

Postby Counterpunch » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:13 pm

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Ironhidensh wrote:So, kind of going back to the origins of the thread. Over the last couple weeks I've been doing kind of an experiment. And by experiment I just mean paying more attention to my boys as they play. I have two sons, a one-year-old and a two-year-old. my sons have a lot of toys. Mixed in with those toys are quite a bit of what are normally called girl toys. See, my wife's sister has two little girls who are both quite a bit older than our kids. So before we started having kids, my sister-in-law would send us all the girls stuff that they no longer used. She was convinced we were going to have a girl. I'm convinced that because she sent us all this girl stuff, we had two little boys.

Anyway, I mostly focused on my two-year-old. One of his favorite toys is a dollhouse. I don't know what kind of dollhouse, or what toy line it belongs to, just that it's a dollhouse. He likes to open it up and open doors and windows. He also likes to stuff as many of his other toys inside of it as he can, to try and hide them from his little brother. I won't lie, and you can judge me as you wish for this, but it always bothered me that he played with the dollhouse. Not enough to stop him, but still.

All of the other girls stuff, he's never played with. At least he's never played with it now that he's out of the pick it up and stick it in my mouth stage. As for what he actually plays with, he mostly focuses on cars. He likes robots to, but he loves cars. Any kind of car. He gets upset if he sees me transform a car to a robot. He won't touch a single doll, despite my wife trying to get him to several times.

A few days ago, my boys received a castle place as a gift. It works pretty much the same as the dollhouse. It has doors and windows that open and close, the castle itself opens up, and it has rooms you can stuff things into. It also comes with the dragon that I can interact with, I think it's one of those imaginex toys. Since the castle to shut up, he has not once touch the dollhouse. He's just done with it. I even set the dollhouse in front of them one day to see if he would still like it, and he pushed it away.

Our sitter has a little girl my sons age. This little girl also has three older brothers. Their house is quite full of boy toys. I was talking to my sitter about it, and she says that her daughter will rarely play with the boy toys. Even when her brothers want her too, she sticks with the girls toys.

I've talked with other parents about it, and it just seems to me that gender-neutral that he is something we put on children. For the most part boys like boy toys, and girls like girl toys. Of course there's always going to be exceptions to this rule, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with the boy playing with girl toys, and vice versa. Just my two cents after some observation.


My mom ran a daycare in our home when I was growing up.

This sums up what I saw of it since there was always a mix of boy and girl stuff there.
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